Quote Originally Posted by Vuk View Post
You could say the same about ANY statement. If I say that Osama Bin Laden is bad, that is a generalisation. Does that make me wrong though? I believe the obvious point BG was trying to make was that it was an overgeneralization, which it is not.



This discussion was about islam, not Christianity, but I will answer this one point. It is different with the Old Testament, because what is in the old Testament are rules God gave for that particular people in that particular society. (Things that were later made void with the New Testament) The Old Testament is a history, not a guide on how to live. God does not say "Live like David" (whereas the koran does instruct muslems to live like muhamed, and says that he was perfect). The Bible says that everyone sins, and the only person the Bible tells you to live like is Christ Jesus, who was perfect, God in the flesh.
You actually help my arguement, look at the difference between who Christians are supposed to imitate and who muslims are. Muhammed had sex with a 9 year old girl, and was never supposed to commit a sin...in fact, muslims should strive to be like him. And you say that I am wrong by saying that islam is misogonistic? That is just sick. Muhamed also went on holy wars, murdered, ordered clandestine acts such as assasinations, raped, ordered his followers to treat women like property, etc. This is the guy muslims are ordered to be like. That right there proves my point..
1)he did not have sex with a nine year old; records are clear on that. he did marry 'aishah when she was nine, but Arab custom demanded he not touch her till she menstruated (since menstruation defined women in the ancient Arab world). hence, he had sex with her as a teenager, so techinacally, he did not commit pedophilia (maybe by today's standards, but we only raised the minimum age in the last century, and a little earlier). besides, didn't europeans have a similar custom until the 19th century? I hear the words :"moral hypocracy" ringing in the air.

2)He ordered no assassinations: he was quite literally offered them. In ancient Arabia, it was not unusal for a person to show loyalty to his tribe/leader/king, by assassinating an enemy. you can read the story of jassas ibn murrah and his murder of kulayb wa'il in 494 AD, or the aftermath of the false haram incident from the 4th century AD. He allowed them to do what they wanted, yes, but he did not obligate them. you can read in detail about the killing of ka3b ibn Ashraf. you will see that he was offered Ashraf's head by muhammad ibn maslamah. the porphet said merely to not do anything until he (ibn maslamah) cunsulted with the tribal elder, sa3d ibn mu3ath.

3)most of his "holy wars" were defensive: Badr, Uhud, khndaq, mustalaq, and hunayn were all defensive, or partly so. you can read their respective accounts elsewhere. also, his offensive operations were often due to hearing news that an enemy tribe was ammassing forces against madinah (khaybar and ta'if), or a tribe breeched peace (makkah)*, or severly breached diplomatic rules (mu'tah and tabuk). his preferred technique of spreading Islam was by sending men out who knew the qur'an and his words, and they would slowly convert friendly tribes (see abu dhar and his convertin ghafar and aslam tribes, abu umamah and the tribe of bahilah, abu musa and the yemenis, etc). in fact, far more tribes went in peacefully than violently, but no, the west just loves to look at the ugly-part of the sick sensationalist aspect that has unfortunately pervaded recently..

so where is the "purely by sword" bulls*** you and your fellow hubul follow?

4)murdured? let me check...nope, there were executions, but no known murdurs, and none of the executions were for false reasons (sedition, treason, murder, more treason). maybe to the 21st century, some of this would be wrong, but not to that time and place. In fact, for a politician, he was surprisingly peaceful for his time and place; he did not tie men by their shoulders, mass murder 30,000 in a stadium, or round people up in a trench for being christian, and slaughter them all...the worst he did was let sa3d ibn m3ath judge that tribe after khandaq; he applied deuteronomy on them, as they were jewish, and demanded that they be tried per jewish law. so the men were killed, the rest scattered..

5)he raped? not even 100 siras show that**. I have seen no evidence (literally none) that he did that. the closest he came was when al-muqawqis sent him a woman as a present. and even then, there is clear evidence that he treated her well, favored her, and even had a son by her-he died as a child. her name is Mariyyah BTW, just so that you can look her up too. also, he explicitly said that females and children should be treated well, and not be harmed, especially in war time. you can read on the Aftermath of khndaq and khaybar.

6)mysogyny? man, go look up pre Islamic Arabia if you want mysogyny. they buried girls alive, and barred inheritance, just for starters..the very worse thing I have seen was that he expected women to dress decently (the veil is actually a abbasid thing), to obey their husbands (i.e be good wives) and they are allowed to inherit and work. oh, wait, that's actually good, isn't it? and if you quote the ar-rijalu qawwamun 3ala an-nisa'i verse, then you need to learn Arabic; while qawwam is often translated as "superior", or "above", it actually means "guardian" or "curator". another arabic word derived from qwm or qym (both mean the same), is qayyim, which is grammatically identical to the above, and is used to refer to a curator or caretaker. in other words to dumb it down, the qur'an says take care of your women, hence husbands must be good to their wives as well. Its also known that he put a strong precedent of NOT exposing girls (well, burying them), of NOT mistreating them, and of NOT degrading them. even his last speech advised men to appreciate women, and to view them well (hajjat al-wada3). you can look that up. and the beating part has some very strict rules to it, again explained in hijjat al-wada3. It is a last resort (and I mean last), and never to the point where a woman is harmed in any way. in fact, the arabic word for "hit", is also the one for "leave", "strike from", or "quit" (or even cite: darab mathalan= he cited an example), so no one is sure if the idribuhunna commandment was reffering to beating. and many sunnahs were written 2-3 centuries after his death, furthur complicating things (many hadths are spurious; problem is: which ones?)



and no, I am not citing some random apologetic (I have nothing to apologize for in that regard). I can recommend you several books, such as the "series of heroes books" (1960's), the various siras (I had one in the library of mine from the early 20th century, you can reda Tabari too), and 5 history books from grandfather's college years-all written and explained in detail, before we had to worry about the recent events (so no, not apologetic). some were in fact very cutting of the prophet.. Tabari, Ibn Ishaq, several explanitory sahihs (none of them perfect), and a good study of the political system from then to the 12th century. that is more than I can say for wherever the heck you got your "facts" from.

I suggest that to read these sources, you need to learn Arabic. I'm not going to sit here and translate every word of these sources. It would take me several liftimes.


*the makkans supported an ally of theirs to raid a tribe allied to Madinah. the attacked tribe sought help, and he responded. once he makkan learned of his reaction, they gave up..well, almost all. one of the three columns for makkah was ambushed by some makkans; 2 muslims and 15 makkans killed. 2 makkans were later executed, but the city was spared sacking.
**like saying none

PS: I know I won't convince you, but I have to post...that way others can read and learn.