My post on the Sweden thread

[LittleGrizzly]

The backroom has a decent level of maturity... i would say this topic represents the lower levels of maturity... i wouldn't say we have all that many people to prove wrong... well on islam at least theres not too many topics...

If your a fiscal conservative you may have quite a few disagreements though...

[Ibrahim]

I wish to also add: my grandfather was an Imam when he was alive, and he followed the prophet's sunnah to the letter-everything that was consistent with, and related to the Qur'an (that way he avoided doing the wrong things), as well as the good book itself. and he wasn't exactly "evil and hypocritical", but the very opposite. he never raised voice, attacked anyone, and he treated his wife very very well by all accounts. so where in this does Islam teach doing evil, if all proper applications are the exact opposite? and none of the sahabah exhibited evil tendencies (sternes, yeah, not evil)

this is to show you what kind of person islam is theoretically supposed to make. and so far, all good muslims I have met have been the very oppoite of what you predict, and all are very clear that they follow his example. I have yet to see one person who truly did, and ended up a terrorrist or criminal...


no this is not an appeal to consequence-just citing examples of what proper following of Islam does

wait one second: this was in a thread about Sweden? I see now.... (no I have nothing against Sweden-just what I heard about the immigrents there)

[PanzerJaeger]

I wish to also add: my grandfather was an Imam when he was alive, and he followed the prophet's sunnah to the letter-everything that was consistent with, and related to the Qur'an (that way he avoided doing the wrong things), as well as the good book itself. and he wasn't exactly "evil and hypocritical", but the very opposite. he never raised voice, attacked anyone, and he treated his wife very very well by all accounts. so where in this does Islam teach doing evil, if all proper applications are the exact opposite? and none of the sahabah exhibited evil tendencies (sternes, yeah, not evil)

this is to show you what kind of person islam is theoretically supposed to make. and so far, all good muslims I have met have been the very oppoite of what you predict, and all are very clear that they follow his example. I have yet to see one person who truly did, and ended up a terrorrist or criminal...


no this is not an appeal to consequence-just citing examples of what proper following of Islam does

wait one second: this was in a thread about Sweden? I see now.... (no I have nothing against Sweden-just what I heard about the immigrents there)

Well, we can all move along now. Your grandfather was a good guy, there are no homosexuals in Iran, and women are treated very very well by all accounts.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm relieved. For a minute there, I was sure there were incredible human rights abuses and a dangerous fomentation of terrorism within the islamic world. Silly me.

Are such insightful anecdotes how you won all those 258 debates?

[seireikhaan]

Well, we can all move along now. Your grandfather was a good guy, there are no homosexuals in Iran, and women are treated very very well by all accounts.

A very much uncalled for personal attack.

[LittleGrizzly]

Well, we can all move along now. Your grandfather was a good guy, there are no homosexuals in Iran, and women are treated very very well by all accounts.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm relieved. For a minute there, I was sure there were incredible human rights abuses and a dangerous fomentation of terrorism within the islamic world. Silly me.

Well thanks for that example PJ, If i were the kind of person to make generalisations like vuk and pj this is the point where i might generalise off the last 2 responses. We had a muslim make a perfectly sensible argument whilst maintaining the hieght of good conduct... then we have a christian who just opens his mouth and dives straight in there with a personal attack...

If i was the kind of person to make generalisations.... the things i would say...

[Adrian II]

Backroom discussions are getting bland lately, particularly because some very colourful members have left us for one reason or another. The result is a lot of middle of the road discussion instead of sharp debate. Personally I would appreciate a firmer tone as long as racial slurs or personal attacks are left out. With the foxman (temporarily?) absent and Louis dropping only the occasional provocative gem, there is little to get excited about. I blame myself (and a busy stage in my life) as much as the next member. But please, can we have a good old barnfight for once. Sigh.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I don't think this debate really belongs here - I think a thread should be started on the topic of Islam in the Backroom instead. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but I think this is entirely for debating Vuk's complaint. You all know my opinion already.

[PanzerJaeger]

A very much uncalled for personal attack.

I'm wondering how simply repeating what he already stated for the purpose of highlighting the weakness of anecdotal substantiation is a personal attack...

Regardless, EMFM is of course right. This isn't the place. You guys should kick this around in the Backroom.

[seireikhaan]

I'm wondering how simply repeating what he already stated for the purpose of highlighting the weakness of anecdotal substantiation is a personal attack...

Don't play dumb, that was an attack on a person's grandfather and you know it.

[Ibrahim]

Well, we can all move along now. Your grandfather was a good guy, there are no homosexuals in Iran, and women are treated very very well by all accounts.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm relieved. For a minute there, I was sure there were incredible human rights abuses and a dangerous fomentation of terrorism within the islamic world. Silly me.

Are such insightful anecdotes how you won all those 258 debates?

Ad hominum attacks do not constitute clear debate. Anecdotal evidence, while not perfect, can..(consult Lincoln vs. Douglass) there is s diff. Anecdotal, if used correclty, cites examples of a theory or argument; incorrectly, its old wive' tales

look, I am not saying there are no problems in the muslim world (to think I am saying that proves you think I am and idiot, and that you are a jacka**)-just the opposite, there are no shortages in that regrad; the oner/misinterpretation of what is presented to us, the dogmatic grip of the clerics for the past 500 years, the triumph of traditionalist vs. Logical interpretations (which used to be the norm), etc, etc, etc. this is the main idea behind what I am saying.

I do not want to fight with anyone on this, as EMFM and others have said. i merely wish o correct, explain, and make sense of this confusion

PS: do not pin the acts of fanatical shi3a on a sunni. I do not perfectly understand the shi3a, or their interpreation of the law, so Iran sould be mentioned to someone else...

[Ibrahim]

also, I usually convinced the others not with anecdotal evidence, but in the manner I talked to Vuk: I cited the records, and used facts from the sources I have at ready. In fact, if you read the poscrit to that post, you would releize that I hade already made my case, and was citing an example of what ideally things should be.

or should I talk to you like I talk to 1 year olds?

[Ibrahim]

also, I usually convinced the others not with anecdotal evidence, but in the manner I talked to Vuk: I cited the records, and used facts from the sources I have at ready. In fact, if you read the poscrit to that post, you would releize that I hade already made my case, and was citing an example of what ideally things should be.

or should I talk to you like I talk to 1 year olds?

and if you are having trouble finding the postcript, I will quote it here:

this is to show you what kind of person islam is theoretically supposed to make. and so far, all good muslims I have met have been the very oppoite of what you predict, and all are very clear that they follow his example. I have yet to see one person who truly did, and ended up a terrorrist or criminal...

again, If you guys have problems/issues/trouble/touchings: go to the backroom.

[PanzerJaeger]

Don't play dumb, that was an attack on a person's grandfather and you know it.

Actually, it was not. It had very little if anything to do with his grandfather at all, and more to do with his use of his grandfather as some sort of anecdotal evidence of muslim behavior - a segway into my broader point. Since I wrote it I know this to be true.

I do appreciate you giving me the opportunity to make clear any misunderstandings though.

also, I usually convinced the others not with anecdotal evidence, but in the manner I talked to Vuk: I cited the records, and used facts from the sources I have at ready. In fact, if you read the poscrit to that post, you would releize that I hade already made my case, and was citing an example of what ideally things should be.

The thing is, dear Ibrahim, you didn't make much of a case at all. I, and I believe most people who have issues with Islam, do not really care what the good prophet did or did not do with little girls or whether your grandfather was a stand up guy or not. We care about the here and now. I'm glad you've acknowledged all is not well in the land of Mohammed. I'm perfectly willing to say the same about Western the Western World.

(to think I am saying that proves you think I am and idiot, and that you are a jacka**)

or should I talk to you like I talk to 1 year olds?

Excellent. Your temper is most delicious indeed, but don’t go and get yourself in trouble over me. It’s really not worth it.

[PershsNhpios]

I suppose that the men pictured inside the armour in your signature would not have bothered wasting time with baiting people as you have Hunter..
What shame that you dishonour them, by wearing them digitally like a badge.

When you click on, "The Guild", and see the rows of Gaming forums, with people shouting about being flogged with mortars and about how the Greeks pronounced their names - you must wonder why it is necessary to have such a nasty dark side to the forum like the Backroom.

People who go in seldom come out, and if you do not go insane for frustration of the vanity that is breathed like poison therein, you are certain to become one of the self-satisfied and properly opinionated group who are completely convinced that they know what needs to be done in order to correct all the problems in this world.


Outback, Australian mine-workers, though more ignorant, are far more sensible and reserved when they are asked of their opinion!
And they have some of the worst manners I have ever witnessed!

Can another forum not be found for this to carry on?

Certainly, one can avoid the backroom, no doubt as one can avoid drugs or a blackhole (And it seems many Backroomers have difficulty avoiding the former..) - but lately it has burst out into lighter places like the Frontroom and quite blemished the atmosphere of the Org.
And I freely admit that I was one of those who brought political mischief out of it's place.

Political differences only ever bring bitterness.
Here on the forum, where no one can reach another's throat, it simply makes for horrible doses of sarcasm and generally brings out the worst in all - even those who have popular and accepted theories.
In reality, where one can reach another's throat, it is still the case that people who have opinions never intend to let them be converted to that of their opponent's.
The arguments are instead solved with violence.

Not because people are terrible, but because if one is committed to force his opinion on another - nowadays the average person feels too informed and content with themselves to be persuaded - scepticism is rife, the man who wishes to force his opinion must in all cases do so by violence for he loses his patience.

Most sadly, orators are disbelieved and mistrusted, and rhetoric is deemed misleading and deceitful for it has too many times been used as a weapon for evil purposes.

---

What place has any of this on a Gaming forum? I realise to myself, that it is unworthy of the lowest dignity to be debating like a serious suiter of one's nation - whilst on a forum for strategy video-games!

Off to the district representatives to you! Off to the parks, and the town halls, where you can make your speeches and perhaps get some fresh air!

[PershsNhpios]

(Perhaps I should leave this alone now - but it is interesting to watch Vuk come back and put little bold comments under my paragraphs!
I can just picture him flapping his hands like a mouth and rolling his eyes if we were all in a room talking!)

God Bless America! Home of the Free! Home of the Most Beautiful and Intelligent people in the Whole Wide World!
Da-da da-da da Daa da DAA da-da - da-da da-da DAA! Daa da-da!

[Monk]

I have to say I am very disappointed in this thread. What began as one member's complaints over his temporary suspension has now turned into a place where members are quite comfortable with taking sniping shots at one another, while at the same time pleading ignorance they ever fired those shots.

Perhaps all involved should take this opportunity to walk away instead of indulging themselves with sarcastic baiting and ad hominem attacks.

[Strike For The South]

I think PJ is right and ya'll are playing right into his hands.

As for the actual thread. It really is all presentation.

[Togakure]

Yes. I strayed into this thread and am having distasteful flashbacks of the Backroom. I for one would certainly appreciate it if threads like this never strayed into the Org proper. My vow to never return to that place would maintain its proven value.

[PershsNhpios]

As if from a trance, I stare back on my posts and wonder why I bothered putting the time into it!

ARRCH!

I entirely agree with your sentiment, Masamune - I was simply more aggressive and overbearing in giving my version of it.

Walking away...


Would the moderators do me the favour of warning me every time a post of mine appears outside the MTW section?

[LittleGrizzly]

I think PJ is right and ya'll are playing right into his hands.

I think Ibrahim is right and a few of you are showing us that muslims are far more civilised than christians... wow hang on this isn't an insult... im working from the anecdotal evidence!

Edit just to clarify i don't put muslims or christians above one or the other...

Alot of the differences can be put down to socio economic reasons... some of the rest can attributed to various foriegn interventions

[Vuk]

Yes. I strayed into this thread and am having distasteful flashbacks of the Backroom. I for one would certainly appreciate it if threads like this never strayed into the Org proper. My vow to never return to that place would maintain its proven value.

It is not in the Org proper, it is in the Backroom Watchertower, which is the correct place for it, and a place that anyone who does not want to go to the Backroom should avoid.

I think Ibrahim is right and a few of you are showing us that muslims are far more civilised than christians... wow hang on this isn't an insult... im working from the anecdotal evidence!

Edit just to clarify i don't put muslims or christians above one or the other...

Alot of the differences can be put down to socio economic reasons... some of the rest can attributed to various foriegn interventions

That is the most bigotted statement I have seen in a long time. Here I got a warning for speaking about a holy book, while making a point to say that I did not believe it reflected on those who practice the religion (or think that they do). Here you are making judgements (and offensive ones at that) about individual people, and massive groups of people! How about judging people as individuals? What makes you think that it is the religion of the posters that make them post the way they do? Maybe we should blame race next. How about judging people as individuals and not being a bigot. There is your sniping shot Monk, and one that I think is darned accurate and well deserved at that. I think posts like LittleGrizzly's are the one that should be resulting in bans, not mine.

*walks away to cool down after being subjected to such a hateful, disgusting, and bigotted post*

[LittleGrizzly]

That is the most bigotted statement I have seen in a long time.

As i clarified below i don't put christians above or below muslims

*walks away to cool down after being subjected to such a hateful, disgusting, and bigotted post*

Well im glad you at least understood that generalisations are hateful disgusting and bigotted... now see if you can stop being a hypocrite and follow through with it...

There is your sniping shot Monk, and one that I think is darned accurate and well deserved at that. I think posts like LittleGrizzly's are the one that should be resulting in bans, not mine.

I calrified my intentions perfectly well with the smiley and my clarification below... i was simply showing you the dangers of your generalisations... maybe now your so annoyed you understand why you got your warning ?

[Togakure]

It is not in the Org proper, it is in the Backroom Watchertower, which is the correct place for it, and a place that anyone who does not want to go to the Backroom should avoid.

My, my. Mr. Pissed Off is gonna snarl at anyone and everyone who annoys him or doesn't take his side, hmm? You are unhappy, so you're gonna try and make everyone else unhappy. Ok, here's an additional two koku's worth of compassionate toughness, just for you:

The main page of the forum is definitely the "Org proper." For that matter, anywhere outside of the Backroom is. The most recent post in the Watchtower can be seen on the main page (which I'm sure you know, as you're a lot smarter than your behavior here suggests). This dubious thread has been visible for some time now on the main page, and out of sheer boredom I made the mistake of looking at it. After reading enough to get the gist of what was going on, I posted my comment--not to annoy you, but to get the attention of staff so that maybe something would be done to settle this or move it out of site from those of us who want absolutely nothing to do with the Backroom.

No, the correct place for your complaint would have been in PMs to the staff involved. People who make public threads like this--filled with complaints focused on their warning and how "unfair" it was--have one intention in my book: drawing attention to themselves in hopes of garnering support from their buddies and like-minders. In my opinion, patrons have no business injecting their opinions about disciplinary matters between staff and an offending patron. And please, don't tell me that you're just trying to affect Org policy for the better in regard to fairness, because that's a load of bull-honky made very clear once this thread is reviewed. Even the title of the thread indicates that your gripe is about a specific judgment that went against you, and not about policy. You're just using policy and previous questionable behavior as leverage to try and overturn your warning. Never gonna happen. The bottom line is, staff is judge and jury. I think they are overly magnanimous in putting up with threads like these in the Watchtower.

If you really want to change policy, consider the example from Saving Private Ryan, where the grunts are complaining about their mission, about it being "fubar." The Catholic sniper presents his case from a seemingly selfless angle, focusing on benefit and not his crappy situation, and the captain says something to the effect of, "listen up, this is how you gripe." Anyone with a gripe over a disciplinary action posting publicly in the Watchtower would do well to take this kind of approach if they want to be taken seriously.

How about accepting responsibility for poor judgment and lack of self-control, accepting the consequences of your actions, and moving on. As it is you're making a fool out of and alienating yourself. Trust me, I know all about that, and it's not a stigma you want here as it can take a very long time to earn back the respect of patrons and staff once you've made an arse out of yourself.

***

Staff: Since getting rid of the Backroom won't be a popular idea, is there any way to seclude the Backroom Watchtower with permissions like the Backroom, so that patrons who don't want to participate and don't want to see any of this can enjoy the rest of the board in relative peace?

[Vuk]

My, my. Mr. Pissed Off is gonna snarl at anyone and everyone who annoys him or doesn't take his side, hmm? You are unhappy, so you're gonna try and make everyone else unhappy. Ok, here's an additional two koku's worth of compassionate toughness, just for you:

The main page of the forum is definitely the "Org proper." For that matter, anywhere outside of the Backroom is. The most recent post in the Watchtower can be seen on the main page (which I'm sure you know, as you're a lot smarter than your behavior here suggests). This dubious thread has been visible for some time now on the main page, and out of sheer boredom I made the mistake of looking at it. After reading enough to get the gist of what was going on, I posted my comment--not to annoy you, but to get the attention of staff so that maybe something would be done to settle this or move it out of site from those of us who want absolutely nothing to do with the Backroom.

No, the correct place for your complaint would have been in PMs to the staff involved. People who make public threads like this--filled with complaints focused on their warning and how "unfair" it was--have one intention in my book: drawing attention to themselves in hopes of garnering support from their buddies and like-minders. In my opinion, patrons have no business injecting their opinions about disciplinary matters between staff and an offending patron. And please, don't tell me that you're just trying to affect Org policy for the better in regard to fairness, because that's a load of bull-honky made very clear once this thread is reviewed. Even the title of the thread indicates that your gripe is about a specific judgment that went against you, and not about policy. You're just using policy and previous questionable behavior as leverage to try and overturn your warning. Never gonna happen. The bottom line is, staff is judge and jury. I think they are overly magnanimous in putting up with threads like these in the Watchtower.

If you really want to change policy, consider the example from Saving Private Ryan, where the grunts are complaining about their mission, about it being "fubar." The Catholic sniper presents his case from a seemingly selfless angle, focusing on benefit and not his crappy situation, and the captain says something to the effect of, "listen up, this is how you gripe." Anyone with a gripe over a disciplinary action posting publicly in the Watchtower would do well to take this kind of approach if they want to be taken seriously.

How about accepting responsibility for poor judgment and lack of self-control, accepting the consequences of your actions, and moving on. As it is you're making a fool out of and alienating yourself. Trust me, I know all about that, and it's not a stigma you want here as it can take a very long time to earn back the respect of patrons and staff once you've made an arse out of yourself.

***

Staff: Since getting rid of the Backroom won't be a popular idea, is there any way to seclude the Backroom Watchtower with permissions like the Backroom, so that patrons who don't want to participate and don't want to see any of this can enjoy the rest of the board in relative peace?

A: My complaint is public because my emails went unanswered, and I was not able to send PMs, as well as to draw attention to the unfair standards enforced by the Backroom moderators. I really do not see you problem (or the reason that you are in a thread you detest so)

B: If you do not want to participate in or see the content of Backroom Watchtower threads (listen up, this is really complicated) DON'T CLICK ON THEM!
I for one do not enjoy drunken revelry, but instead of complaining about bars being visible to the public, I simply do not enter the bars. As long as the revelry does not spill out onto the street, why do I care if the building is visible? It is not my concern.
Again, if you do not like Backroom threads, DO NOT ENTER THEM! It is as simple as can be.

[PanzerJaeger]

@ the innocence abused. Something must be done to keep such disturbing posts away from our more fragile members!

This thread is incredibly, terribly, horribly.... tame. We all know Vuk isn't going to have his warning reversed, and this thread is headed for an unceremonious lock. The only person I know of to ever achieve any level of success with a Backroom Watchtower(..or was it still just the Watchtower?) post was Prole. Its all about the transparency of the staff's decisions, and quite frankly a little bit of cathartic venting. Enjoy the high drama, as he will probably be embarrassed about it later. I know I'm not particularly proud of the time's I've jumped in here to whine about a warning. Sometimes I can't comprehend some of the delicate sensibilities prevalent here. How do you guys survive the internet?

[Togakure]

Hmmm, ok. I return to this thread because I've now invested in it. Snide responses directed at me will receive a rebuttal from me until the tone turns civil, or until (hopefully) staff shuts this down. This thread serves no useful purpose that I can see. If you and others are going to be permitted to relieve themselves in it, well, my bladder's full at the moment too. If the stink reaches an intolerable level, it will likely be closed. This serves my purpose (though not yours ...).

" ... (listen up this is really complicated) ..."

You crave respect, want to be heard and vindicated, yet snipe in juvenile fashion like this--on top of all the preceding ballyhoo. I don't need advice from you, Vuk. I explained how I ended up in this thread. I'd like to see Backroom diatribe and anything related to it kept out of sight--completely. Your tirade has spilled out onto the main page of the forum. I had no way of knowing what your thread--link visible from the main page--was about until I entered, and once I did and saw what was there, I posted my two-line comment because I really didn't want to see that. You didn't have to respond to it as it wasn't directed at you, yet in your current state you chose to spit venom in my direction. I don't take kindly to that.

It seems to me that your self-control needs some work if you have to respond in acidic fashion to every comment that isn't in your best interest. It also appears that your judgment is impaired if you think it's in your best interest to support such ludicrous "advice" with a fallacious anecdote. I can see why you would have a tough time in the Backroom, and can only conclude that your suspension is an appropriate consequence.

Prove me wrong: let this go, and take your issues private, with patience.

[Vuk]

Hmmm, ok. I return to this thread because I've now invested in it. Snide responses directed at me will receive a rebuttal from me until the tone turns civil, or until (hopefully) staff shuts this down. This thread serves no useful purpose that I can see. If you and others are going to be permitted to relieve themselves in it, well, my bladder's full at the moment too. If the stink reaches an intolerable level, it will likely be closed. This serves my purpose (though not yours ...).



You crave respect, want to be heard and vindicated, yet snipe in juvenile fashion like this--on top of all the preceding ballyhoo. I don't need advice from you, Vuk. I explained how I ended up in this thread. I'd like to see Backroom diatribe and anything related to it kept out of sight--completely. Your tirade has spilled out onto the main page of the forum. I had no way of knowing what your thread--link visible from the main page--was about until I entered, and once I did and saw what was there, I posted my two-line comment because I really didn't want to see that. You didn't have to respond to it as it wasn't directed at you, yet in your current state you chose to spit venom in my direction. I don't take kindly to that.

It seems to me that your self-control needs some work if you have to respond in acidic fashion to every comment that isn't in your best interest. It also appears that your judgment is impaired if you think it's in your best interest to support such ludicrous "advice" with a fallacious anecdote. I can see why you would have a tough time in the Backroom, and can only conclude that your suspension is an appropriate consequence.

Prove me wrong: let this go, and take your issues private, with patience.

Masamune, get a life. If you saw that the thread was from the Backroom watchtower you could have clicked back and not read the first sentence. I made this thread to try to get something done about an extremely unfair warning (not that the idea of getting a warning hurts me that much, but because it is an immoral abuse of power and stifles fair discussion). The only thing you are doing is distracting from my grievance and trying to get my legitamite thread locked by flame baiting. You do not like threads like this, so please do everyone a favor and get out.

[Andres]

Please guys, are these personal attacks and aggressive posts really necessary?

[Togakure]

Masamune, get a life. If you saw that the thread was from the Backroom watchtower you could have clicked back and not read the first sentence. I made this thread to try to get something done about an extremely unfair warning (not that the idea of getting a warning hurts me that much, but because it is an immoral abuse of power and stifles fair discussion). The only thing you are doing is distracting from my grievance and trying to get my legitamite thread locked by flame baiting. You do not like threads like this, so please do everyone a favor and get out.

Flame baiting in my previous posts? Where? I edited the crap out of them, trying to keep them relatively civil under the circumstances.

Everyone a favor? You flatter me. There are many patrons who feel as I do about the Backroom this kind of nonsense. I'm involved by choice now, and I think I'll stick around despite your kind invitation, thank you. Besides, I figured you the type to enjoy a good row. Certainly you are not afraid of what innocent, fragile lil me might say, are ya? Get a life? You might wanna consider your own advice .

(not that the idea of getting a warning hurts me that much, but because it is an immoral abuse of power and stifles fair discussion)

Feeling the need to convince yourself of noble purpose while writing your response to me ? If such was your purpose you would be focused on it and wouldn't have taken my two-liner personally, nor would you continue to engage me. But you just can't resist having the last word (we share that unfortunate proclivity). Ok ... en garde .

Ok, ok ... now I've been baiting you. Kinda fun, it's been a while. But you started it with me ....

Yeah, I could have clicked back. I chose not to because this is the second time recently that this kind of thing has gone on, and it's getting on my nerves. I'm a patron too, been here quite a bit longer than you. Us (hardly) innocent, (hardly) fragile (oxymoron!) patrons have a right to voice our opinions too. This thread is a perfect example of the problem, so no need to create another thread to complain about it.

[Togakure]

Please guys, are these personal attacks and aggressive posts really necessary?

The entire thread is unnecessary, Andres. I'm not proud of my current behavior, but I'm not so noble as some to walk away when being harangued. Why isn't this closed? Can the Back Room Watch Tower be made so it's not visible to those of us who don't have a need to--and don't want to--see it? That'd guarantee that I--for one--would never be in here again. One less hothead to worry about etc.

If Vuk stops engaging me, or offers something conciliatory, I'll remain silent.