My post on the Sweden thread

[seireikhaan]

I'm wondering how simply repeating what he already stated for the purpose of highlighting the weakness of anecdotal substantiation is a personal attack...

Don't play dumb, that was an attack on a person's grandfather and you know it.

[PanzerJaeger]

Don't play dumb, that was an attack on a person's grandfather and you know it.

Actually, it was not. It had very little if anything to do with his grandfather at all, and more to do with his use of his grandfather as some sort of anecdotal evidence of muslim behavior - a segway into my broader point. Since I wrote it I know this to be true.

I do appreciate you giving me the opportunity to make clear any misunderstandings though.

also, I usually convinced the others not with anecdotal evidence, but in the manner I talked to Vuk: I cited the records, and used facts from the sources I have at ready. In fact, if you read the poscrit to that post, you would releize that I hade already made my case, and was citing an example of what ideally things should be.

The thing is, dear Ibrahim, you didn't make much of a case at all. I, and I believe most people who have issues with Islam, do not really care what the good prophet did or did not do with little girls or whether your grandfather was a stand up guy or not. We care about the here and now. I'm glad you've acknowledged all is not well in the land of Mohammed. I'm perfectly willing to say the same about Western the Western World.

(to think I am saying that proves you think I am and idiot, and that you are a jacka**)

or should I talk to you like I talk to 1 year olds?

Excellent. Your temper is most delicious indeed, but don’t go and get yourself in trouble over me. It’s really not worth it.

[PershsNhpios]

I suppose that the men pictured inside the armour in your signature would not have bothered wasting time with baiting people as you have Hunter..
What shame that you dishonour them, by wearing them digitally like a badge.

When you click on, "The Guild", and see the rows of Gaming forums, with people shouting about being flogged with mortars and about how the Greeks pronounced their names - you must wonder why it is necessary to have such a nasty dark side to the forum like the Backroom.

People who go in seldom come out, and if you do not go insane for frustration of the vanity that is breathed like poison therein, you are certain to become one of the self-satisfied and properly opinionated group who are completely convinced that they know what needs to be done in order to correct all the problems in this world.


Outback, Australian mine-workers, though more ignorant, are far more sensible and reserved when they are asked of their opinion!
And they have some of the worst manners I have ever witnessed!

Can another forum not be found for this to carry on?

Certainly, one can avoid the backroom, no doubt as one can avoid drugs or a blackhole (And it seems many Backroomers have difficulty avoiding the former..) - but lately it has burst out into lighter places like the Frontroom and quite blemished the atmosphere of the Org.
And I freely admit that I was one of those who brought political mischief out of it's place.

Political differences only ever bring bitterness.
Here on the forum, where no one can reach another's throat, it simply makes for horrible doses of sarcasm and generally brings out the worst in all - even those who have popular and accepted theories.
In reality, where one can reach another's throat, it is still the case that people who have opinions never intend to let them be converted to that of their opponent's.
The arguments are instead solved with violence.

Not because people are terrible, but because if one is committed to force his opinion on another - nowadays the average person feels too informed and content with themselves to be persuaded - scepticism is rife, the man who wishes to force his opinion must in all cases do so by violence for he loses his patience.

Most sadly, orators are disbelieved and mistrusted, and rhetoric is deemed misleading and deceitful for it has too many times been used as a weapon for evil purposes.

---

What place has any of this on a Gaming forum? I realise to myself, that it is unworthy of the lowest dignity to be debating like a serious suiter of one's nation - whilst on a forum for strategy video-games!

Off to the district representatives to you! Off to the parks, and the town halls, where you can make your speeches and perhaps get some fresh air!

[PershsNhpios]

(Perhaps I should leave this alone now - but it is interesting to watch Vuk come back and put little bold comments under my paragraphs!
I can just picture him flapping his hands like a mouth and rolling his eyes if we were all in a room talking!)

God Bless America! Home of the Free! Home of the Most Beautiful and Intelligent people in the Whole Wide World!
Da-da da-da da Daa da DAA da-da - da-da da-da DAA! Daa da-da!

[Monk]

I have to say I am very disappointed in this thread. What began as one member's complaints over his temporary suspension has now turned into a place where members are quite comfortable with taking sniping shots at one another, while at the same time pleading ignorance they ever fired those shots.

Perhaps all involved should take this opportunity to walk away instead of indulging themselves with sarcastic baiting and ad hominem attacks.

[Togakure]

Yes. I strayed into this thread and am having distasteful flashbacks of the Backroom. I for one would certainly appreciate it if threads like this never strayed into the Org proper. My vow to never return to that place would maintain its proven value.

[PershsNhpios]

As if from a trance, I stare back on my posts and wonder why I bothered putting the time into it!

ARRCH!

I entirely agree with your sentiment, Masamune - I was simply more aggressive and overbearing in giving my version of it.

Walking away...


Would the moderators do me the favour of warning me every time a post of mine appears outside the MTW section?

[Strike For The South]

I think PJ is right and ya'll are playing right into his hands.

As for the actual thread. It really is all presentation.

[LittleGrizzly]

I think PJ is right and ya'll are playing right into his hands.

I think Ibrahim is right and a few of you are showing us that muslims are far more civilised than christians... wow hang on this isn't an insult... im working from the anecdotal evidence!

Edit just to clarify i don't put muslims or christians above one or the other...

Alot of the differences can be put down to socio economic reasons... some of the rest can attributed to various foriegn interventions

[Vuk]

Yes. I strayed into this thread and am having distasteful flashbacks of the Backroom. I for one would certainly appreciate it if threads like this never strayed into the Org proper. My vow to never return to that place would maintain its proven value.

It is not in the Org proper, it is in the Backroom Watchertower, which is the correct place for it, and a place that anyone who does not want to go to the Backroom should avoid.

I think Ibrahim is right and a few of you are showing us that muslims are far more civilised than christians... wow hang on this isn't an insult... im working from the anecdotal evidence!

Edit just to clarify i don't put muslims or christians above one or the other...

Alot of the differences can be put down to socio economic reasons... some of the rest can attributed to various foriegn interventions

That is the most bigotted statement I have seen in a long time. Here I got a warning for speaking about a holy book, while making a point to say that I did not believe it reflected on those who practice the religion (or think that they do). Here you are making judgements (and offensive ones at that) about individual people, and massive groups of people! How about judging people as individuals? What makes you think that it is the religion of the posters that make them post the way they do? Maybe we should blame race next. How about judging people as individuals and not being a bigot. There is your sniping shot Monk, and one that I think is darned accurate and well deserved at that. I think posts like LittleGrizzly's are the one that should be resulting in bans, not mine.

*walks away to cool down after being subjected to such a hateful, disgusting, and bigotted post*

[LittleGrizzly]

That is the most bigotted statement I have seen in a long time.

As i clarified below i don't put christians above or below muslims

*walks away to cool down after being subjected to such a hateful, disgusting, and bigotted post*

Well im glad you at least understood that generalisations are hateful disgusting and bigotted... now see if you can stop being a hypocrite and follow through with it...

There is your sniping shot Monk, and one that I think is darned accurate and well deserved at that. I think posts like LittleGrizzly's are the one that should be resulting in bans, not mine.

I calrified my intentions perfectly well with the smiley and my clarification below... i was simply showing you the dangers of your generalisations... maybe now your so annoyed you understand why you got your warning ?

[Togakure]

It is not in the Org proper, it is in the Backroom Watchertower, which is the correct place for it, and a place that anyone who does not want to go to the Backroom should avoid.

My, my. Mr. Pissed Off is gonna snarl at anyone and everyone who annoys him or doesn't take his side, hmm? You are unhappy, so you're gonna try and make everyone else unhappy. Ok, here's an additional two koku's worth of compassionate toughness, just for you:

The main page of the forum is definitely the "Org proper." For that matter, anywhere outside of the Backroom is. The most recent post in the Watchtower can be seen on the main page (which I'm sure you know, as you're a lot smarter than your behavior here suggests). This dubious thread has been visible for some time now on the main page, and out of sheer boredom I made the mistake of looking at it. After reading enough to get the gist of what was going on, I posted my comment--not to annoy you, but to get the attention of staff so that maybe something would be done to settle this or move it out of site from those of us who want absolutely nothing to do with the Backroom.

No, the correct place for your complaint would have been in PMs to the staff involved. People who make public threads like this--filled with complaints focused on their warning and how "unfair" it was--have one intention in my book: drawing attention to themselves in hopes of garnering support from their buddies and like-minders. In my opinion, patrons have no business injecting their opinions about disciplinary matters between staff and an offending patron. And please, don't tell me that you're just trying to affect Org policy for the better in regard to fairness, because that's a load of bull-honky made very clear once this thread is reviewed. Even the title of the thread indicates that your gripe is about a specific judgment that went against you, and not about policy. You're just using policy and previous questionable behavior as leverage to try and overturn your warning. Never gonna happen. The bottom line is, staff is judge and jury. I think they are overly magnanimous in putting up with threads like these in the Watchtower.

If you really want to change policy, consider the example from Saving Private Ryan, where the grunts are complaining about their mission, about it being "fubar." The Catholic sniper presents his case from a seemingly selfless angle, focusing on benefit and not his crappy situation, and the captain says something to the effect of, "listen up, this is how you gripe." Anyone with a gripe over a disciplinary action posting publicly in the Watchtower would do well to take this kind of approach if they want to be taken seriously.

How about accepting responsibility for poor judgment and lack of self-control, accepting the consequences of your actions, and moving on. As it is you're making a fool out of and alienating yourself. Trust me, I know all about that, and it's not a stigma you want here as it can take a very long time to earn back the respect of patrons and staff once you've made an arse out of yourself.

***

Staff: Since getting rid of the Backroom won't be a popular idea, is there any way to seclude the Backroom Watchtower with permissions like the Backroom, so that patrons who don't want to participate and don't want to see any of this can enjoy the rest of the board in relative peace?

[Ibrahim]

The thing is, dear Ibrahim, you didn't make much of a case at all. I, and I believe most people who have issues with Islam, do not really care what the good prophet did or did not do with little girls or whether your grandfather was a stand up guy or not. We care about the here and now. I'm glad you've acknowledged all is not well in the land of Mohammed. I'm perfectly willing to say the same about Western the Western World.

1-I am well aware that the problem is here and now. but I fear you misunderstood the original intent of my first post. my post was to refute beliefs and misconception about a particular person..hence my objective was to refute a case. this I did. my goal was to rebut what Vuk said about the prophet's person, nothing more or less. I did, and cited the evidence, so I made my case, and made it well. I did not post to discuss to cater to whoever else, but t a specific situation. sorry If I show too much focus.

2-if its about the here and now, why the heck did Vuk (and many others) attack the prophet? I know that the history before today is important, but you can't attack the begining just yet. its not as if Islam jumped the c.1400 years from 610 to 2009. In fact, the period in the middle matters to understand todays situation.

3-If you want my case however about Islam today, let me make it here:

the here and now (since you claim the problem is today): people have taken things out of context, taken advantage of beliefs and practices, and played with them to suite their own ends, or in reaction to the situation round them, and this has led to the mess we are in (this is my case; quite generalized, but I'm not focusing on any one thing, unlike my post to Vuk). the first step in adressing the problem is to point that out(obviously); and what better way of explaining that than citing the prophet? afterall, doesn't everyboby who professes Islam say they are out to emulate him? now you understand why I cite him the most in an argument-because to understand what he did allows one to understand Islam, and by extension, understand what is wrong with its practitioners today. you cannot understand the state of Islam today, unless you understand its origins, just like you cannot understand Europe or America today without understanding their history and beginings. I figured this was simple enough of a start. that is step one: you following? now go up there to my first post, and read that for the origins, and find other links regarding that (wikipedia is actually an excellent source-a rarity in wikipedia). also, you can try to somehow find the blue-green book-it was a good book.(assuming someone somehow moved some from Kuwait to the place you live in).

step two: there are other factors for the current situation, aside from the original religion itself, which I hope you already knew (afterall, aren't they in the news?!): the tumultuous situation in the middle east (the holy Land, Iran, etc), that has flamed fundamentalistic and nationalistic movements; cultural changes in the past 1400 years (again, see the part regarding the traditionalists taking over Islamic thought, and the resulting stagnation, as starters), the way the laws and interpretations were codified and interpreted, etc. not many people look at those to understand what is going on, and tie that into the factors leading to terrorrism and backwardness, and from there to Islam; Instead I see a tendancy of assuming tht this religion has jumped the past 1400 years. also, the rise of movements such as wahhabism, qutbism, and salafi approaches, must be put into context of the original application of this religion, and also in context of their time and place. hence the past is the key to the present in this situation.. I can recomend several articles for your eyes, as explaining the past few centuries (and this century in particular), and hence Islam's problem today, will take me ages:

first off, I only recommend the wikipedia articles as a starter. you are free to follow the links, and look up the citations, and I in fact encourage you to:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

http://www.ghandchi.com/iranscope/Anthology/KavehFarrokh/farrokh7.htm (pan Arabism; many will be surprised about its role really in today's world. I know this was against the evil it inflicted on Iran, but its the pre 1980's stuff in it that is of interest)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Abd-al-Wahhab (wahhabism's founder)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qutbism (qutbism; also, i suggest you try to find info on th man who founded it)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_...ian_Revolution (I figured you would want to understand Iran's recent predicament, no? I highly recommend that you move out from it and to read that one in detail)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_revival (islamic revivalism)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi (the mahdi concept; again, this figures into some movements today)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_I...osophy#Falsafa (pre 1500 thought)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Nafis (look up his religious beliefs; they will discuss aspects of traditionalist and logical; gives you an idea of pre 1500 conflicts of interpretation)

as you have seen(if you bothered reading), the movements that are endemic to today (and hence the issues today) did not all start in the early 7th century, but later on. also, I have not posted links, but you must take into account the conflict between shia and sunnis, and also the khawarij (Islam's first fundamentalistic sect, late 7th century AD- present (in the form of ibadiyyah; note though that the current strain has been watered down and mellowed); this is critical for Iraq and Iran today. there are also other factors (western* culture going into these lands, the secularist movements in many muslim countries before the 1970's, etc)I ask that you look at the situation recently as a web of intertwined factors, and not as a simple begat model of cause and effect. also, I recommend that you understand the period between 632 (the propht's death), and today, and not focus only on 610-632, and 1970-today.


and as for my temper-I never claimed to have a temper...If you are offended, just know that I am sorry that I have to be you spiegel.

*I refer to the western sciences, the attitudes on various social issues, etc, that do not match what is in the Islamic world; they lead to culture conflict. I personally find western science a good thing. the rest I have only this to say: this is what is done in a different country, hence not good or bad; its just another way of doing things, and another viewpoint...

anyways, I am going to leave now, as this thread has run its course, and in fact should never have happened..so do not reply in any way, as I won't respond. I will let you read through all this info instead, and enjoy thyself. afterall, we all learn stuff everyday, no?

and have a good day.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Moderating the Backroom is always a judgement call, and a constant learning process.

How much is too much?

What comments are meant in jest? Or meant as a sardonic comment? Which are trolling efforts?

We have some few patrons who would truly prefer a forum where they could use **** in every part of speech in the same paragraph.


For moderating, the real point is "HOW" you present it. Is the fact that a phrase was meant in jest clear to any reasonable reader? Is your potentially offensive comment posed as an exemplar to encourage discussion, or a summary with which to damn some position/idea/group you oppose?


Adrian wants a barnfight (we'd say barfight here) -- nothing prevents it. A little care to how you present it and virtually any topic can be brought out for discussion.

[LittleGrizzly]

You've completely taken what Vuk said out of context. I think everyone here needs to understand that Vuk is discussing the nature of the faith itself and what it says in the Koran and Hadith, not the nature of the individuals practicing that faith.

I disagree, all this criticism of islam has become popular in the last few years after the terrorist attacks in various places, vuk seems to know very little of the koran and what he does know seems to be innaccurate right wing propaganda, this leaves two possiblities, he was duped by right wing propaganda, he is using it as an excuse to insult muslims. I strongly believe the latter though i guess theres no way to prove such a thing...

[Vuk]

You've completely taken what Vuk said out of context. I think everyone here needs to understand that Vuk is discussing the nature of the faith itself and what it says in the Koran and Hadith, not the nature of the individuals practicing that faith.

I disagree, all this criticism of islam has become popular in the last few years after the terrorist attacks in various places, vuk seems to know very little of the koran and what he does know seems to be innaccurate right wing propaganda, this leaves two possiblities, he was duped by right wing propaganda, he is using it as an excuse to insult muslims. I strongly believe the latter though i guess theres no way to prove such a thing...

Your post is nothing more than a personal attack on my character Little Grizzly, and as such, does not deserve answering. For the sake of the mods and the community though, I will condescend to do so.
First of all, it has nothing to do with being "popular" to criticise islam. I used to be a mindless defender of the religion. (I say mindless because I knew very little about it, and defended it on a faulty assumption (which was/is popular now adays) that all religions are good and peaceful (except Christianity of course, it is still ok to demonize it). My opinion of islam was formed from a study I did of the religion in my attempts to justify it. Sorry for being crude, but I could not give a rat's ass what is popular, or what the heck other people think of my opinions. I say what I think to be true, and am not afraid of being politically incorrect. (which is not to say that I try to offend people, I do not. I simply am not afraid to tell the truth. The world would be a much better place if more people would do that) I usually surprise people who know me with how I can be what is considered hardcore rightwing on some issues, and hardcore leftwing on others. It is because I am neither. I think for myself and have my own opinions, not tied to any party or ideology.
If you want to criticise me, do so by criticising my individual ideas, not by trying to tie me to stupid trends, parties, or ideologies. Such things are completely inaccurate, do not represent people fairly, and their definition changes all the time. :P

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Grizz, Vuk:

This is not my forum, but my friendly advice would be to cool this off a bit. I would prefer not to have Tosa hammering eithe rof you with warning points, and you certainly could head that way if this heats up more.