My post on the Sweden thread

[Vuk]

If Vuk stops engaging me, or offers something conciliatory, I'll remain silent.

I would just like to say that despite what he would lead you to believe, we are NOT engaged! (and I can safely promise you that we never will be )

[Togakure]

I would just like to say that despite what he would lead you to believe, we are NOT engaged! (and I can safely promise you that we never will be )

I'll take that as conciliatory. Peace, Vuk.

[Monk]

The entire thread is unnecessary, Andres. I'm not proud of my current behavior, but I'm not so noble as some to walk away when being harangued. Why isn't this closed? Can the Back Room Watch Tower be made so it's not visible to those of us who don't have a need to--and don't want to--see it? That'd guarantee that I--for one--would never be in here again. One less hothead to worry about etc.

If Vuk stops engaging me, or offers something conciliatory, I'll remain silent.

That's not the way it works on the internet. You either walk away or you feed the fire, becoming just as guilty as those baiting you.

[Togakure]

I just accepted what I chose to interpret as a conciliatory statement (humor is a good thing) from Vuk. Though we went on for a bit, it went full circle, and the issue between us resolved itself.

There is no one "way it works" on the internet. What you described is the ideal, sure, but hardly the norm. Honestly, I find your comment rather patronizing, and unnecessary considering Vuk and I had concluded our little drama. I frequent many boards, and do just fine with the majority of patrons and staff, on all of them. What is the purpose of your post? To teach me something? To make me feel guilty? To highlight me as a bad example to other patrons?

Feel free to PM me or continue here. Your choice will suggest much in regard to these questions.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

*walks away to cool down after being subjected to such a hateful, disgusting, and bigotted post*

Well im glad you at least understood that generalisations are hateful disgusting and bigotted... now see if you can stop being a hypocrite and follow through with it...

You've completely taken what Vuk said out of context. I think everyone here needs to understand that Vuk is discussing the nature of the faith itself and what it says in the Koran and Hadith, not the nature of the individuals practicing that faith.

[Vuk]

You've completely taken what Vuk said out of context. I think everyone here needs to understand that Vuk is discussing the nature of the faith itself and what it says in the Koran and Hadith, not the nature of the individuals practicing that faith.

Thank you EMFM, I am glad to see at least one person who understands that. I think many of the people objecting know this though, but they do not want it to be discussed, so they instead continually take what I say out of context after I continually explain to them what I meant. I would like to see what BG and Tosa have to say. I email Tosa about it, but have not recieved a reply yet.

[Ibrahim]

The thing is, dear Ibrahim, you didn't make much of a case at all. I, and I believe most people who have issues with Islam, do not really care what the good prophet did or did not do with little girls or whether your grandfather was a stand up guy or not. We care about the here and now. I'm glad you've acknowledged all is not well in the land of Mohammed. I'm perfectly willing to say the same about Western the Western World.

1-I am well aware that the problem is here and now. but I fear you misunderstood the original intent of my first post. my post was to refute beliefs and misconception about a particular person..hence my objective was to refute a case. this I did. my goal was to rebut what Vuk said about the prophet's person, nothing more or less. I did, and cited the evidence, so I made my case, and made it well. I did not post to discuss to cater to whoever else, but t a specific situation. sorry If I show too much focus.

2-if its about the here and now, why the heck did Vuk (and many others) attack the prophet? I know that the history before today is important, but you can't attack the begining just yet. its not as if Islam jumped the c.1400 years from 610 to 2009. In fact, the period in the middle matters to understand todays situation.

3-If you want my case however about Islam today, let me make it here:

the here and now (since you claim the problem is today): people have taken things out of context, taken advantage of beliefs and practices, and played with them to suite their own ends, or in reaction to the situation round them, and this has led to the mess we are in (this is my case; quite generalized, but I'm not focusing on any one thing, unlike my post to Vuk). the first step in adressing the problem is to point that out(obviously); and what better way of explaining that than citing the prophet? afterall, doesn't everyboby who professes Islam say they are out to emulate him? now you understand why I cite him the most in an argument-because to understand what he did allows one to understand Islam, and by extension, understand what is wrong with its practitioners today. you cannot understand the state of Islam today, unless you understand its origins, just like you cannot understand Europe or America today without understanding their history and beginings. I figured this was simple enough of a start. that is step one: you following? now go up there to my first post, and read that for the origins, and find other links regarding that (wikipedia is actually an excellent source-a rarity in wikipedia). also, you can try to somehow find the blue-green book-it was a good book.(assuming someone somehow moved some from Kuwait to the place you live in).

step two: there are other factors for the current situation, aside from the original religion itself, which I hope you already knew (afterall, aren't they in the news?!): the tumultuous situation in the middle east (the holy Land, Iran, etc), that has flamed fundamentalistic and nationalistic movements; cultural changes in the past 1400 years (again, see the part regarding the traditionalists taking over Islamic thought, and the resulting stagnation, as starters), the way the laws and interpretations were codified and interpreted, etc. not many people look at those to understand what is going on, and tie that into the factors leading to terrorrism and backwardness, and from there to Islam; Instead I see a tendancy of assuming tht this religion has jumped the past 1400 years. also, the rise of movements such as wahhabism, qutbism, and salafi approaches, must be put into context of the original application of this religion, and also in context of their time and place. hence the past is the key to the present in this situation.. I can recomend several articles for your eyes, as explaining the past few centuries (and this century in particular), and hence Islam's problem today, will take me ages:

first off, I only recommend the wikipedia articles as a starter. you are free to follow the links, and look up the citations, and I in fact encourage you to:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

http://www.ghandchi.com/iranscope/Anthology/KavehFarrokh/farrokh7.htm (pan Arabism; many will be surprised about its role really in today's world. I know this was against the evil it inflicted on Iran, but its the pre 1980's stuff in it that is of interest)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Abd-al-Wahhab (wahhabism's founder)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qutbism (qutbism; also, i suggest you try to find info on th man who founded it)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_...ian_Revolution (I figured you would want to understand Iran's recent predicament, no? I highly recommend that you move out from it and to read that one in detail)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_revival (islamic revivalism)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi (the mahdi concept; again, this figures into some movements today)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_I...osophy#Falsafa (pre 1500 thought)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Nafis (look up his religious beliefs; they will discuss aspects of traditionalist and logical; gives you an idea of pre 1500 conflicts of interpretation)

as you have seen(if you bothered reading), the movements that are endemic to today (and hence the issues today) did not all start in the early 7th century, but later on. also, I have not posted links, but you must take into account the conflict between shia and sunnis, and also the khawarij (Islam's first fundamentalistic sect, late 7th century AD- present (in the form of ibadiyyah; note though that the current strain has been watered down and mellowed); this is critical for Iraq and Iran today. there are also other factors (western* culture going into these lands, the secularist movements in many muslim countries before the 1970's, etc)I ask that you look at the situation recently as a web of intertwined factors, and not as a simple begat model of cause and effect. also, I recommend that you understand the period between 632 (the propht's death), and today, and not focus only on 610-632, and 1970-today.


and as for my temper-I never claimed to have a temper...If you are offended, just know that I am sorry that I have to be you spiegel.

*I refer to the western sciences, the attitudes on various social issues, etc, that do not match what is in the Islamic world; they lead to culture conflict. I personally find western science a good thing. the rest I have only this to say: this is what is done in a different country, hence not good or bad; its just another way of doing things, and another viewpoint...

anyways, I am going to leave now, as this thread has run its course, and in fact should never have happened..so do not reply in any way, as I won't respond. I will let you read through all this info instead, and enjoy thyself. afterall, we all learn stuff everyday, no?

and have a good day.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Moderating the Backroom is always a judgement call, and a constant learning process.

How much is too much?

What comments are meant in jest? Or meant as a sardonic comment? Which are trolling efforts?

We have some few patrons who would truly prefer a forum where they could use **** in every part of speech in the same paragraph.


For moderating, the real point is "HOW" you present it. Is the fact that a phrase was meant in jest clear to any reasonable reader? Is your potentially offensive comment posed as an exemplar to encourage discussion, or a summary with which to damn some position/idea/group you oppose?


Adrian wants a barnfight (we'd say barfight here) -- nothing prevents it. A little care to how you present it and virtually any topic can be brought out for discussion.

[LittleGrizzly]

You've completely taken what Vuk said out of context. I think everyone here needs to understand that Vuk is discussing the nature of the faith itself and what it says in the Koran and Hadith, not the nature of the individuals practicing that faith.

I disagree, all this criticism of islam has become popular in the last few years after the terrorist attacks in various places, vuk seems to know very little of the koran and what he does know seems to be innaccurate right wing propaganda, this leaves two possiblities, he was duped by right wing propaganda, he is using it as an excuse to insult muslims. I strongly believe the latter though i guess theres no way to prove such a thing...

[Vuk]

You've completely taken what Vuk said out of context. I think everyone here needs to understand that Vuk is discussing the nature of the faith itself and what it says in the Koran and Hadith, not the nature of the individuals practicing that faith.

I disagree, all this criticism of islam has become popular in the last few years after the terrorist attacks in various places, vuk seems to know very little of the koran and what he does know seems to be innaccurate right wing propaganda, this leaves two possiblities, he was duped by right wing propaganda, he is using it as an excuse to insult muslims. I strongly believe the latter though i guess theres no way to prove such a thing...

Your post is nothing more than a personal attack on my character Little Grizzly, and as such, does not deserve answering. For the sake of the mods and the community though, I will condescend to do so.
First of all, it has nothing to do with being "popular" to criticise islam. I used to be a mindless defender of the religion. (I say mindless because I knew very little about it, and defended it on a faulty assumption (which was/is popular now adays) that all religions are good and peaceful (except Christianity of course, it is still ok to demonize it). My opinion of islam was formed from a study I did of the religion in my attempts to justify it. Sorry for being crude, but I could not give a rat's ass what is popular, or what the heck other people think of my opinions. I say what I think to be true, and am not afraid of being politically incorrect. (which is not to say that I try to offend people, I do not. I simply am not afraid to tell the truth. The world would be a much better place if more people would do that) I usually surprise people who know me with how I can be what is considered hardcore rightwing on some issues, and hardcore leftwing on others. It is because I am neither. I think for myself and have my own opinions, not tied to any party or ideology.
If you want to criticise me, do so by criticising my individual ideas, not by trying to tie me to stupid trends, parties, or ideologies. Such things are completely inaccurate, do not represent people fairly, and their definition changes all the time. :P

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Grizz, Vuk:

This is not my forum, but my friendly advice would be to cool this off a bit. I would prefer not to have Tosa hammering eithe rof you with warning points, and you certainly could head that way if this heats up more.

[rasoforos]

I wonder how many people got warnings for posting inappropriate comments in this thread.


My 2 euro cents:


Moderators change and the forum's character changes with them. Sometimes in a way that we like it and sometimes in a way that we do not. I 've been in these forums for 6.5 years now and have seen this a multitude of times.

The last time I took a great leave of absence was when a patron of this forum launched a disgusting and racist personal attack against my family and the moderator let it pass. I did not want to be part of such a forum so I took my custom elsewhere (so to speak).

When I returned, to see how things are, one of the first things that happened was that I got a warning from Banquo's Ghost in a religious related post. I felt it was unfair (and still do) but I also saw that the backroom was in general a much much improved place than the place I left. Justice was also served concerning my personal matter.

To make a long story short, I will never agree with some decisions of the backroom mods but I acknowledge that their work is, by definition and not through their own choice, subjective. Therefore I will sometimes fail to see their point and maybe react angrily...

...What I know is that I returned to a much better place.

In the future things will change (the way they always do) but for the moment the positive effects of moderation far outweigh the negative ones. Let us not see the tree and miss the forest. If the price for a civilized backroom is a slight restriction on what I can say about religion then it is a price that I am happy to pay.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

If Vuk got a warning for this then I hope warnings have been given in the ''Ratzinger condemns condoms'' thread as well. I am not going to point out any specific posts, but if you read through I think everyone will know exactly what I am talking about.

[KukriKhan]

Just so everyone is clear: org staff does not reveal the details of (or even the existence of) any warnings issued to Members, as a matter of privacy. Members who have received warnings are, of course, free to reveal such details, at their pleasure.

[Aemilius Paulus]

I hope warnings have been given in the ''Ratzinger condemns condoms'' thread as well. I am not going to point out any specific posts, but if you read through I think everyone will know exactly what I am talking about.

What are you talking about?? I just read the whole thread, and everyone has been on their best behaviour. If things that people say on the thread are disapproved of in .Org, then this is helluva totalitarian entity. I saw nothing even remotely offensive there, and I have read the thread carefully. Now, I believe one person did call Catholicism stupid, but that is his opinion, and he is entitled to it.

[KarlXII]

Do we have a digging a hole fetish in the Org?

[Aemilius Paulus]

Do we have a digging a hole fetish in the Org?

Were you referring to my post, or Vuk's efforts?

[KarlXII]

Were you referring to my post, or Vuk's efforts?

No one in particular.

[Zim]

I don't suppose you could tell me about when you came back to the backroom?

I cancelled my backroom membership a while back because things were getting pretty bad. It might be worth taking a look again if they've improved.

To make a long story short, I will never agree with some decisions of the backroom mods but I acknowledge that their work is, by definition and not through their own choice, subjective. Therefore I will sometimes fail to see their point and maybe react angrily...

...What I know is that I returned to a much better place.

[rasoforos]

I was probably away (apart from small stints) before you registered. I might be getting a warning a month regular (I am late for my next one, I hope I am not pregnant!!!) but it is much better than older times when it comes to abuse and personal insults.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

What are you talking about?? I just read the whole thread, and everyone has been on their best behaviour. If things that people say on the thread are disapproved of in .Org, then this is helluva totalitarian entity. I saw nothing even remotely offensive there, and I have read the thread carefully. Now, I believe one person did call Catholicism stupid, but that is his opinion, and he is entitled to it.

There was one post that was at least as bad or worse than what Vuk posted. You may want to check again, because I will not link to the individual post.

[TosaInu]

I'll have to do some reading to catch up on this one. I'll close this topic now.