celtic combat

[Aurgelmir]

Yesterday i saw on youtube 2 guys explaining how the celts fight.
I'm a noob...so i dont know how to put links here(youtube:celtic war...you should find it)
When the celtic warrior charged the line he did some kind of salto/loop over the enemy,so he lands behind him and can cut his throat or stab him.Could someone verify this?
I know this sound redicolous,but see for yourself...

[SwissBarbar]

i can explain it. The crash towards the enemy's line so hard, that on both sides some make salto's ^^but not on purpose *G* Did those guys also explain what these warriors did after the cut the throats of the enemy and how they managed not to get stabbed while making the stuntman?

I just imagine them looping into a greek phalanx formation. Spears up mates

[Aurgelmir]

yeah i know.....
But pls check youtube...they did this (move) not accidentally.
they jumped on with there back on the top of the enemy shield,so he loops himself behind the enemy,stabs him and eventually beheading him.

I always thought they just clashed with each other and then starting swinging there weapons,using brute force with some basic hack/slash skills.

Dam...how do i put links here?

I checked it again...its called the salmon leap...you tube/celtic warriors A Comprehensive Journey - Part 1...so my question is... did they use such moves

[Tyrfingr]

Yeah, definitly noob...

[Aurgelmir]

Yeah, definitly noob...

And what has this to do with the topic??

[bobbin]

That move might have been useful in one on one combat, but in a large battle the guy is just going to get stabbed by someone in the next rank of enemy soldiers, seems to be reffering to something talked about in the irish mythologies so i'm not sure how historical it would have been, I certainly doubt it would have been common sight on a celtic battlefeild.

edit heres the video if anyone wants a look/laugh https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEnbbAvfvVQ
Check out the sexy celtic pants!

[Maion Maroneios]

Just saw the video and this is quoted from the description given by the creators of the video themselves: "Since youve always wanted to learn about Celtic Warriors, you may as well learn with the best of the worst. Also our Salmon Leap is accurate because we say so."

Notice the underlined part. As for the historical accuracy, let's say I believe you should know better than believe a clearly amateur video made (most probably) for fun. Just use common logic: Would you try a "salmon leap" against an enemy in the first row, thus turning your back to who-knows how many other soldiers in the hind lines?

Maion

[Aurgelmir]

Just saw the video and this is quoted from the description given by the creators of the video themselves: "Since youve always wanted to learn about Celtic Warriors, you may as well learn with the best of the worst. Also our Salmon Leap is accurate because we say so."

Notice the underlined part. As for the historical accuracy, let's say I believe you should know better than believe a clearly amateur video made (most probably) for fun. Just use common logic: Would you try a "salmon leap" against an enemy in the first row, thus turning your back to who-knows how many other soldiers in the hind lines?

Maion

lol i did not hear what they say,because i have no sound here...
And yes its a amateur video...but that doesn't mean that they are not correct....thats why i'm asking here lol to get the info

And yes its not the best move to make against a battle line..

So to answer your question...no i would not....(i would rather take out my remington out of my trunk lol)

[Hodgson]

I;'m probably not the best person to post on this, as I'm not an expert and my books are too far away (they're actually less than 30m away but I'm just lazy) but here goes.

The salmon leap is referenced in some of the Irish myths as being one of a number (12?) of tasks and feats that all true Irish warriors must be capable of performing. A lot of them seem to be more displays of strength, coordination, agility, endurance and courage than actually being useful combat techniques. Whether or not the "Salmon Leap" looks like it does in that video is anyone's guess, but my guess is no.

In addition, the actual jump used there would be utterly useless against massed ranks. Roll over man 1, right onto man 2's gladius/spear/axe/spiky-thing-on-the-top-of-his-helmet.

Finally, some of the Roman writers reference Gauls and Britons performing some pretty amazing tricks and techniques in combat. Caesar mentions that some warriors would catch pilum from the air while running at the Roman line and throwing them back. And I can't remember if it is Caesar or Tacitus but I think one of them mentions warriors leaping over the first rank of legionairres, crashing into the second and causing general mayhem 1/2 a second before the rest of the warriors start partying. Of course, they did die after performing their little jump...

Finally, I recall reading that Galatians, at least once, rolled underneath the spears of a Pergameme (?) phalanx and coming up stabbing in the front rank. The Greeks got round that one by having the front rank kneel down next time. Mind you, after rolling all that way underneath a line of sarissas, I think I'd be too dizzy to do anything except lie down and close my eyes. I can't remember where that came from so I wouldn't put too much faith in it.

If any of this is wrong, someone who knows better can correct me. If any of this is right, I think I'll have a celebratory drink :)

Hodgson

[Aurgelmir]

I;'m probably not the best person to post on this, as I'm not an expert and my books are too far away (they're actually less than 30m away but I'm just lazy) but here goes.

The salmon leap is referenced in some of the Irish myths as being one of a number (12?) of tasks and feats that all true Irish warriors must be capable of performing. A lot of them seem to be more displays of strength, coordination, agility, endurance and courage than actually being useful combat techniques. Whether or not the "Salmon Leap" looks like it does in that video is anyone's guess, but my guess is no.

In addition, the actual jump used there would be utterly useless against massed ranks. Roll over man 1, right onto man 2's gladius/spear/axe/spiky-thing-on-the-top-of-his-helmet.

Finally, some of the Roman writers reference Gauls and Britons performing some pretty amazing tricks and techniques in combat. Caesar mentions that some warriors would catch pilum from the air while running at the Roman line and throwing them back. And I can't remember if it is Caesar or Tacitus but I think one of them mentions warriors leaping over the first rank of legionairres, crashing into the second and causing general mayhem 1/2 a second before the rest of the warriors start partying. Of course, they did die after performing their little jump...

Finally, I recall reading that Galatians, at least once, rolled underneath the spears of a Pergameme (?) phalanx and coming up stabbing in the front rank. The Greeks got round that one by having the front rank kneel down next time. Mind you, after rolling all that way underneath a line of sarissas, I think I'd be too dizzy to do anything except lie down and close my eyes. I can't remember where that came from so I wouldn't put too much faith in it.

If any of this is wrong, someone who knows better can correct me. If any of this is right, I think I'll have a celebratory drink :)

Hodgson

Thx for the usefull post With this i can do something...

Much better(by far) than

{Yeah he is definitly a noob...(what a stupid ignorant being...(i hope this is better maion)} It makes me angry when i just want to learn something and people are telling just useless crap....so sorry for my personal dissorder

I was curious..don't know much about there fighting skills.

Is there a site,or books where i can find more about combat techniques of the celts

[Maion Maroneios]

That's a very good explanation and general iformation you got there, Hodgson. Here, a balloon for you:

@ Aurgelmir: I'd delete that c***sucker part if I were you.

Maion

[Aurgelmir]

Are there any books about this topic or site's where i can read about it?

What kind of basic training did the celts...not only for fighting...the same goes for hunting,fishing etca?

Where they all farmers,or did they choose who becomes a soldier or not.

I don't know much about the celts...before i get post how noob i am

[SwissBarbar]

yeah, I would like to read those sources too.

btw: there's nothing wrong about being a noob

[Hodgson]

Where to start?

Good intro level sources include:

Collis, J. (1998). The European Iron Age. Routledge: Britain

Cunliffe, B. (1997). The Ancient Celts. Penguin: Britain.

A brilliant reference is:

Green, M.J (ed). (1995). The Celtic World. Routledge: Britain.

I can't recommend that book enough. It is absolutely excellent. It's currently my bible. And it's also really useful as a doorstop and to crush large vermin with (its massive).

Failing that, the wiki page on ancient celts and gauls ain't all that bad. I know that some people hate wiki, but for a basic gist of an idea or broad info, wiki is quite good. I wouldn't use if for a paper but hey...


In terms of fighting styles and skills there isn't much. What follows is rather disjointed, and contains a large amount of theory and personal opinion:

There are not really any written sources for combat techniques until the manuals of the 14th Century such as Tallhoffer. These manuals were used by teachers to help teach students (ie, young nobles and knights in training) how to fight with weapons such as the longsword, shortsword, axe, polearms, dagger and unarmed combat. There were several schools of thought on how to fight, mainly an Italian school and a German school. Before that period, there is little information on true combat training. A group of early medieval reenactors/reconstructionists/experimental archaeologists have however used a combination of Tallhoffer and the Icelandic sagas to create an experimental model of how viking age warriors may have fought. Turns out it is a relatively effective body of techniques. videos of demonstrations of some attacks and counters can be found at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8SRaa33otU. In addition, the Hurstwick reenactment group also have experimented with Tallhoffer: http://www.hurstwic.org/history/arti..._technique.htm. Of course, neither of these deal with the Iron Age.

An Italian group have attempted to recreate an Iron Age combat style. I'm not sure how they went with it though. I've also spoken to some Iron Age reenactors. They say that one of the major elements of combat is the size of the shield. While not relatively heavy, it is cumbersome and awkward, meaning it is often easier to dodge blows than block them. This is however, based on modern people taking part in a combat sport. (please note that I'm not bagging reenactors. I myself was a viking reenactor and am now getting into iron age reenactment).

Now my opinions:
1. No warrior culture will survive long if the basic training consists of "clobber that guy as hard as you can". All warrior cultures seem to have a strong and underlying teaching and training framework to create warriors that fight in a particular style using particular techniques.
2. Celtic combat may have consisted of wide swings with long and heavy swords. Don't dismiss this as primitive fighting though. The Celts, as a culture would have realised two things: their soldiers were big and strong, and they were excellent metalsmiths, allowing them to create swords of that type, thus allowing them to fight in their manner.
3. Roman and Greek writers frequently mention not only the ferocity of celts but also their prowess and skill in battle.
4. celts were frequently used as mercenaries and auxilia. They wouldn't have been used if they weren't good.

In addition, there are also the modern Celtic martial arts of Scotland and Ireland (can't remember what they're called). While (relatively) modern, and not ancient, they are fully formed and functioning martial arts, distinct from eastern martial arts and created by the descendants of the iron age celts (or at least descendents of their culture. lets not get into genetics here)

Hope that made sense.
Hodgson

[Aurgelmir]

yeah, I would like to read those sources too.

btw: there's nothing wrong about being a noob

There is indeed nothing wrong being a noob....but to called a noob is a other story lol

especially when you asking about some stuff,because you want to learn it.

There has to be an celt expert here..?Who is it?

[Aurgelmir]

Where to start?

Good intro level sources include:

Collis, J. (1998). The European Iron Age. Routledge: Britain

Cunliffe, B. (1997). The Ancient Celts. Penguin: Britain.

A brilliant reference is:

Green, M.J (ed). (1995). The Celtic World. Routledge: Britain.

I can't recommend that book enough. It is absolutely excellent. It's currently my bible. And it's also really useful as a doorstop and to crush large vermin with (its massive).

Failing that, the wiki page on ancient celts and gauls ain't all that bad. I know that some people hate wiki, but for a basic gist of an idea or broad info, wiki is quite good. I wouldn't use if for a paper but hey...


In terms of fighting styles and skills there isn't much. What follows is rather disjointed, and contains a large amount of theory and personal opinion:

There are not really any written sources for combat techniques until the manuals of the 14th Century such as Tallhoffer. These manuals were used by teachers to help teach students (ie, young nobles and knights in training) how to fight with weapons such as the longsword, shortsword, axe, polearms, dagger and unarmed combat. There were several schools of thought on how to fight, mainly an Italian school and a German school. Before that period, there is little information on true combat training. A group of early medieval reenactors/reconstructionists/experimental archaeologists have however used a combination of Tallhoffer and the Icelandic sagas to create an experimental model of how viking age warriors may have fought. Turns out it is a relatively effective body of techniques. videos of demonstrations of some attacks and counters can be found at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8SRaa33otU. In addition, the Hurstwick reenactment group also have experimented with Tallhoffer: http://www.hurstwic.org/history/arti..._technique.htm. Of course, neither of these deal with the Iron Age.

An Italian group have attempted to recreate an Iron Age combat style. I'm not sure how they went with it though. I've also spoken to some Iron Age reenactors. They say that one of the major elements of combat is the size of the shield. While not relatively heavy, it is cumbersome and awkward, meaning it is often easier to dodge blows than block them. This is however, based on modern people taking part in a combat sport. (please note that I'm not bagging reenactors. I myself was a viking reenactor and am now getting into iron age reenactment).

Now my opinions:
1. No warrior culture will survive long if the basic training consists of "clobber that guy as hard as you can". All warrior cultures seem to have a strong and underlying teaching and training framework to create warriors that fight in a particular style using particular techniques.
2. Celtic combat may have consisted of wide swings with long and heavy swords. Don't dismiss this as primitive fighting though. The Celts, as a culture would have realised two things: their soldiers were big and strong, and they were excellent metalsmiths, allowing them to create swords of that type, thus allowing them to fight in their manner.
3. Roman and Greek writers frequently mention not only the ferocity of celts but also their prowess and skill in battle.
4. celts were frequently used as mercenaries and auxilia. They wouldn't have been used if they weren't good.

In addition, there are also the modern Celtic martial arts of Scotland and Ireland (can't remember what they're called). While (relatively) modern, and not ancient, they are fully formed and functioning martial arts, distinct from eastern martial arts and created by the descendants of the iron age celts (or at least descendents of their culture. lets not get into genetics here)

Hope that made sense.
Hodgson

Thank you very much for your time...to write this.
It REALLY helps....thats a costructive post hodgson.It motivatad me...to read more over this matter

Its a shame that there is so little known about fighting techniques(celts)

A other question....i saw on tv(yeah i know dont start lol)that the irish(or brttain)had especially good swords because there iron had a other molecular combination than other metals(because thousend of years ago,a meteor hit/crashed somewhere near ireland and it changed the combination of iron there).Even ceasar sword was made out of it....is this true???

pls excuse my english....sometimes i can't write things properly

[Ludens]

Thanks for sharing that, Hodgson.

[cmacq]

A other question....i saw on tv(yeah i know dont start lol)that the irish(or brttain)had especially good swords because there iron had a other molecular combination than other metals(because thousend of years ago,a meteor hit/crashed somewhere near ireland and it changed the combination of iron there).Even ceasar sword was made out of it....is this true???

No, it is not true, it is false.


CmacQ

[cmacq]

First, the Scots, Irish, and Britons are not now, nor ever were Celts, in the Classical sense of the term. The modern usage of Celt, was borrowed the Classical term and initially used it to refer to a common language root based on similarities with Gaulish, which is the Latin equivalent to what the Greeks rendering as Celtic. This usage was largely usurped in the late 19th and 20th centuries by nationalists, in an attempt to empower and express a sense of unity based on ethnicity that never existed, was never achieved, and quite frankly, was and remains entirely abhorrent to the manifold composite, and largely English speaking, cultures of the Scots, Irish, and Britons, outside the socialistic bent.

Second in the Scot and Irish traditions of the early Medieval Period the Salmon, has nothing to do with combat. However, it was considered a totem animal, which in fact was used as such, by the clan from which I descend. Here the Salmon was used as a symbol of a tradition called Darna Shealladh.

Third the Scots, Irish, Britons, and for that matter the Celts, never had military schools taught by masters of a particular marshal art. The reference to the Smithy’s Dog, concerns his tutelage at the hands of Scathach on her island of Sgitheanach. Scathach was a deity whose tradition was toned down a bit in the Medieval Period, when this story was first written down. So herein she was not referred to as a goddess, but rather Lady Skye. Therefore, as a mythic device, being taught the arts of war by Scathach on her island, was akin to a Greek hero being similarly instructed by Athena on Mount Olympus.


CmacQ

[Hodgson]

Fair enough. I'm not up to date with the whole modern celtic thing. It's as confusing as the Greek news, and even less interesting. (For those wondering, in Australia we get a really condensed version the Greek news on the 'international audience' channel SBS. The Spanish news on the other hand is really good. The guy who hosts it is awesome. Anyway I digress...nearly 16 hours of straight research will do funny things to a man's mind.)

[Macilrille]

Not Celtic, but Viking, which had the same reputation and possibly same basic tactic (I suspect both were much more tactically proficient and coordinated than given credit for in ancient and thus modern sources), here www.ask-vikingekampgruppe.dk, you can also search on youtube for "Moesgaard". Further, this guy has some instructive albums from Moesgaard where you can see the fight unfolding almost pic by pic http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/p...624966599&sb=4.

All this should prove fairly instructive in how people who do more than theorise and fantasize (at least that is what we tell ourselves), envision Viking fighting, without you having to read weighty book, though of course it is not Celtic, but Viking. You go watch then let me know if you want to perform any "salmon leaps" over our lines with reserves standing ready behind the main battle...

Note that at Moesgaard we do not fight to make a show, we fight to defeat the opponent.

[Hax]

Even ceasar sword was made out of it....is this true???

Seen The Last Legion lately?

[seienchin]

Actually the movie make sfun of a movie about arthus with keira kneightly. Forgot the title because it was so unbelievable crappy

[SwissBarbar]

you mean "King Arthur" ? that film was not SO crappy

[Aurgelmir]

Seen The Last Legion lately?

yeah terrible...

[Africanvs]

There are references in Livy's The War with Hannibal that Gallic swords were incredibly soft and tended to bend in battle after a short time. Is there archaeological evidence to support this? If this is true it would make me wonder about the overall lethality of such a weapon since it would be rendered inneffective after the first few minutes of combat.

As for the "swan dive" or the "salmon hop" or whatever it's called in this youtube clip, I have my doubts that it was a specific tactic, but there are references everywhere of Gallic warriors having no fear, throwing themselves into phalanxes and breaking them -- hoplite not sarissa -- and generally fighting like insane people. I mean they did fight naked, so a Gaul throwing himself over the first rank of troops to certain death is something I can imagine them doing. I think the biggest reason the Gallic warrior culture was defeated, was by tactical reform. For example, the Romans were beaten by the Gauls, then they changed their tactics to defeat them. As far as I know the Gauls pretty much stuck with the same tactics win or lose, or am I wrong?

[satalexton]

the galatikoi makes for good heavy infantry in the makedonian army...Of course thats after they're punished for raiding the makedonian tombs!

[Ludens]

There are references in Livy's The War with Hannibal that Gallic swords were incredibly soft and tended to bend in battle after a short time. Is there archaeological evidence to support this? If this is true it would make me wonder about the overall lethality of such a weapon since it would be rendered inneffective after the first few minutes of combat.

I haven't read the text, but IIRC Watchman mentioned that that particular bit referred to the younger warriors, who presumably could not afford quality gear. Since Celtic society encouraged individual warriors to stand out, they may have decided to get the biggest sword their money could buy, regardless of the quality. Remember also that the quality of the Roman gladius varied wildly. Presumably, so did the quality of Celtic swords.

As for the "swan dive" or the "salmon hop" or whatever it's called in this youtube clip, I have my doubts that it was a specific tactic, but there are references everywhere of Gallic warriors having no fear, throwing themselves into phalanxes and breaking them -- hoplite not sarissa -- and generally fighting like insane people. I mean they did fight naked, so a Gaul throwing himself over the first rank of troops to certain death is something I can imagine them doing. I think the biggest reason the Gallic warrior culture was defeated, was by tactical reform. For example, the Romans were beaten by the Gauls, then they changed their tactics to defeat them. As far as I know the Gauls pretty much stuck with the same tactics win or lose, or am I wrong?

That is a somewhat simplistic and generalizing representation. Not all Gauls fought naked, and not all would have necessarily displayed suicidal courage as you describe. I imagine the majority fought in the same way as average Romans and Greeks: soiling their pants but holding the line. That's not to say they didn't use this method (as you say, there were individuals that did show exceptional bravery), but I think it unlikely for reasons cited above. It's not useful in formation combat and probably just a training device. Been suicidally brave does not equal being stupid.

Nor where the Celts unable to reform: the Gauls ditched the outdated chariots somewhere around the second century BC, and Vercingetorix apparently used Roman methods to improve his army (at least, if we can trust Caesar on this). I don't think that the Roman conquest of most Celtic tribes can be entirely attributed to a single reason, either. However, you have a point: the Romans were very adaptable in warfare, and that no doubt played a role.

[Mediolanicus]

Aurgelmir, for an "easy" book about the Celts read "De Oude Belgen" by "Udo Janssens".
And it's in Dutch too, so possibly easier to read for you.

[Africanvs]

I haven't read the text, but IIRC Watchman mentioned that that particular bit referred to the younger warriors, who presumably could not afford quality gear. Since Celtic society encouraged individual warriors to stand out, they may have decided to get the biggest sword their money could buy, regardless of the quality. Remember also that the quality of the Roman gladius varied wildly. Presumably, so did the quality of Celtic swords.

That is a somewhat simplistic and generalizing representation. Not all Gauls fought naked, and not all would have necessarily displayed suicidal courage as you describe. I imagine the majority fought in the same way as average Romans and Greeks: soiling their pants but holding the line. That's not to say they didn't use this method (as you say, there were individuals that did show exceptional bravery), but I think it unlikely for reasons cited above. It's not useful in formation combat and probably just a training device. Been suicidally brave does not equal being stupid.

Nor where the Celts unable to reform: the Gauls ditched the outdated chariots somewhere around the second century BC, and Vercingetorix apparently used Roman methods to improve his army (at least, if we can trust Caesar on this). I don't think that the Roman conquest of most Celtic tribes can be entirely attributed to a single reason, either. However, you have a point: the Romans were very adaptable in warfare, and that no doubt played a role.

Hey thanks for the answers! I never meant that all Gauls fought in such a way, I was only saying that there are references to such behavior so I can see some of them doing thus.