Sword/Spear Leathality

[artavazd]

Now leathality for swords and spears differ according to the skill of the units, and the type of sword or spear it is. The question I want to ask is for the swords that have a leathality of 0.1 and the spears that have a leathality of 0.125 wont the spear armed unit be stronger? (even though they suffer a -4 defensive or was it offensive? penalty against a sword armed unit)

[mcantu]

yes, the spear unit will have a 2.5% greater chance that a hit results in a kill.

[Rilder]

I dunno about you but if I were to get stabbed by a spear or a sword, I'd probably die without the proper medical care.

[artavazd]

so given that two units one a sword the other a spear unit have similar stats, would the spear unit come out the winner even though it suffers a penalty against the sword unit but has a higher leathality? (0.1 for sword, 0.13 for spear)

[Ludens]

Slight correction: in the EB stat system lethality is only determined by the weapon, not the skill of the user. Also remember that spear units get a -4 attack penalty against infantry. Assuming that is taken into account, in your example the spearman would have a 30% higher chance of killing his opponent when he struck a successful blow. However, it's a chance process and there are other factors such as attack delay and knock-downs: because his strikes are less lethal, the swordsmen will knock-down his opponent more often and prevent him from delivering attacks for a few seconds.

[seienchin]

I do remember that long swords have lethality 0.25, so only the short ones arent lethal, which Im still not satisfied with... But I dunno why the system in EB works. Sword units arent weaker than spearmen

[Aper]

Also remember that spear units get a -4 attack penalty against infantry.

This seems to be the Eternal Bug of EB : according to the EDU guide by Aradan, only the "spear" attribute EB team used in older releases get a -4 to attack ; the current "light_spear" attribute gives a -4 to DEFENSE, so currently the EB spearmen have a higher attack and a lower defense than they should have.

Anyway, if balance is saved, who cares about this... but I'm surprised to see you and MAA reporting this apparently incorrect information ; this means the EB team don't trust an important resource like the EDU guide?

I'll be more clear : who should I follow when I mod by myself?

Thanks in advance

[mcantu]

Slight correction: in the EB stat system lethality is only determined by the weapon, not the skill of the user. Also remember that spear units get a -4 attack penalty against infantry. Assuming that is taken into account, in your example the spearman would have a 30% higher chance of killing his opponent when he struck a successful blow. However, it's a chance process and there are other factors such as attack delay and knock-downs: because his strikes are less lethal, the swordsmen will knock-down his opponent more often and prevent him from delivering attacks for a few seconds.

back in earlier versions of EB, the spear attribute was used. this gave the -4 attack penalty you are talking about. all spear units at this time were given +4 to their attack score to cancel out that penalty. however, starting at EB 1.0 the spear attribute was changed to light_spear. this does not give -4 to attack. for whatever reason, the EB team decided to leave the +4 attack for spear units.

also, i dont see how the OP's example results in a spearman having a 30% greater chance of a kill. the sword has 0.1 lethality (10%) and the spear has 0.125 lethality (12.5%)

[Slaists]

back in earlier versions of EB, the spear attribute was used. this gave the -4 attack penalty you are talking about. all spear units at this time were given +4 to their attack score to cancel out that penalty. however, starting at EB 1.0 the spear attribute was changed to light_spear. this does not give -4 to attack. for whatever reason, the EB team decided to leave the +4 attack for spear units.

also, i dont see how the OP's example results in a spearman having a 30% greater chance of a kill. the sword has 0.1 lethality (10%) and the spear has 0.125 lethality (12.5%)

yes, i was wondering about the same thing. why do spear units have such ridiculously high attack values in EB 1.2? they are supposed to be weaker relative to sword units...

[Ludens]

back in earlier versions of EB, the spear attribute was used. this gave the -4 attack penalty you are talking about. all spear units at this time were given +4 to their attack score to cancel out that penalty. however, starting at EB 1.0 the spear attribute was changed to light_spear. this does not give -4 to attack. for whatever reason, the EB team decided to leave the +4 attack for spear units.

Yes, I've read that before. I have not experimented with the stats, so I cannot confirm or deny it. Could the EB team comment on this?

also, i dont see how the OP's example results in a spearman having a 30% greater chance of a kill. the sword has 0.1 lethality (10%) and the spear has 0.125 lethality (12.5%)

My apologies for being unclear: I meant relatively to the sword. The post to which I responded asked for the difference between a 0.1 lethality sword and a 0.13 lethality spear. This means that, if a strike is successful, the kill chances are 10% and 13% respectively. That is a 30% increase for the spear-man.

[mcantu]

Yes, I've read that before. I have not experimented with the stats, so I cannot confirm or deny it. Could the EB team comment on this?



My apologies for being unclear: I meant relatively to the sword. The post to which I responded asked for the difference between a 0.1 lethality sword and a 0.13 lethality spear. This means that, if a strike is successful, the kill chances are 10% and 13% respectively. That is a 30% increase for the spear-man.

does that work like that if the values are already percentages? if i have 10 apples and i am given 3 more, its a 30% increase...but if something is 10% and it increase to 13%, it increased by 3%

[A Very Super Market]

It is increased by 30% of 10%, which is very roughly equal to 3%

[antisocialmunky]

... its 25%.

.125/.1 = 1.25 = 125%

25% increase.

[A Very Super Market]

What are we even talking about right now?

[antisocialmunky]

You're responding to Ludens. I'm responding to the figures Ludens quoted.

[artavazd]

back in earlier versions of EB, the spear attribute was used. this gave the -4 attack penalty you are talking about. all spear units at this time were given +4 to their attack score to cancel out that penalty. however, starting at EB 1.0 the spear attribute was changed to light_spear. this does not give -4 to attack. for whatever reason, the EB team decided to leave the +4 attack for spear units.

also, i dont see how the OP's example results in a spearman having a 30% greater chance of a kill. the sword has 0.1 lethality (10%) and the spear has 0.125 lethality (12.5%)

So the spear attribute gives a -4 to defence? and is that the case when a spear unit ONLY faces a sword unit? If thats so Im going to edit their attack values down 4 points. It justs gets frustrating sometimes, when you have a medium sword unit either get beat, or have a very hard time with rag tag spear levies. Considering that the initial cost, and upkeep of the medium sword unit is more than the basic spear unit.

[Ludens]

does that work like that if the values are already percentages? if i have 10 apples and i am given 3 more, its a 30% increase...but if something is 10% and it increase to 13%, it increased by 3%

Yes, and upon a successful strike a spearman has a 30% higher chance of getting a kill than a swordsmen.

... its 25%.

.125/.1 = 1.25 = 125%

25% increase.

Except that the post I was replying to specified a .13 lethality for the spear:

so given that two units one a sword the other a spear unit have similar stats, would the spear unit come out the winner even though it suffers a penalty against the sword unit but has a higher leathality? (0.1 for sword, 0.13 for spear)

So the spear attribute gives a -4 to defence? and is that the case when a spear unit ONLY faces a sword unit? If thats so Im going to edit their attack values down 4 points. It justs gets frustrating sometimes, when you have a medium sword unit either get beat, or have a very hard time with rag tag spear levies. Considering that the initial cost, and upkeep of the medium sword unit is more than the basic spear unit.

The -4 attack or defence is against infantry, not sword units in specific.

[antisocialmunky]

also, i dont see how the OP's example results in a spearman having a 30% greater chance of a kill. the sword has 0.1 lethality (10%) and the spear has 0.125 lethality (12.5%)

Saw this before the other.

[Aper]

mcantu and me are speaking of this

The Complete EDU Guide

here there are tons of useful infos about EDU, including the boni/mali of various spears.

[antisocialmunky]

So here's a question: Does -4 defense offset +4 attack?

[artavazd]

So here's a question: Does -4 defense offset +4 attack?

Its not just the +4 attack. The leathality of those low level spearmen, is higher than most medium swordsmen. Now when we take the higher leathality plus the +4 attack, that is a lot of attack power. Personaly Im going to edit the EDU, and take away 4 points from the attack value of spearmen who have the "light spear" attribute. In this case when a spear unit fights another spear unit it wont make a difference, because both units will have a -4 on defence. Now when a spear unit fights a swordunit, the sword unit will have the advantage.


My question is for those elite units who both carry a spear and a sword do they get a -4 on defence when you switch their weapon to a sword?

[Drewski]

back in earlier versions of EB, the spear attribute was used. this gave the -4 attack penalty you are talking about. all spear units at this time were given +4 to their attack score to cancel out that penalty. however, starting at EB 1.0 the spear attribute was changed to light_spear. this does not give -4 to attack. for whatever reason, the EB team decided to leave the +4 attack for spear units.

also, i dont see how the OP's example results in a spearman having a 30% greater chance of a kill. the sword has 0.1 lethality (10%) and the spear has 0.125 lethality (12.5%)

Wow , this is really important. Can someone on the team please explain why this was left in. Because on principle, It seems silly to have Swords less effective than Spears. I was always surprised that Hoplites and the like have a much higher attack than Axemen and Swordsmen. Now I know why.

But before I go through that huge file, and change all Light Spear by -4, could someone be so good as to explain the reasoning to leave the bonus in?

[Aper]

@ artavazd : no, its all about the weapon they are actually using

@ antisocialmunky : I don't understand what do you mean (english not my primary language) but technically, AFAWK, the bonus of +4 to attack of the "light_spear" is a bug, because its purpouse was to balance the -4 to attack of the old "spear" attribute, and now that this attribute is gone it has no reason to be kept ; all spearmen should have a +4 to defence instead

In my EDU I've replaced the +4 to attack with the proper +4 to defence; sadly I've done a lot of other changes according to my taste, that alter considerably the gameplay, so I never posted the file in the past: this is a zombie horse that sometimes rise from the grave you know...

Anyway, from my little experience as modder I think: if overall balance is saved, nobody should care, the EB team have more important things to worry about (EBII... and sometimes RL I suppose...)

[Drewski]

I agree with above posters. I've spent all evening looking through the Unit files, and have to agree it should really be classed as a Bug. Take the Ambusher unit (Luso Skirmisher). I was wondering why on earth they were doing so much damage against my Principes in several battles. Well its because they have a higher attack, with better lethality! (2nd weapon, spear) And they are Skirmishers!!

I also realised that all The Phalanx units too have +4 to attack (they are class long_pike AND light_spear), where they shouldn't. It makes some of the higher Phalanx units quite crazy (19 base attack in one case, 19!!!)

So I manually went through the whole Edu (twice to be sure) and took 4 attack away from all Spear units, Pikes included. The units look at lot more sensible now, and swords and axes vs spears seems now balanced. With the base EB 1.2 values, its like every Spear unit starts out with a Silver Chevron in attack

If anyone wants the file with these modifications, just ask and I'll post it, cos it takes hrs to do it yourself manually.

[antisocialmunky]

@Aper: +4 defense and +8 against horses might not make Horses as ridiculous as they are now.

[mcantu]

@ artavazd : no, its all about the weapon they are actually using

@ antisocialmunky : I don't understand what do you mean (english not my primary language) but technically, AFAWK, the bonus of +4 to attack of the "light_spear" is a bug, because its purpouse was to balance the -4 to attack of the old "spear" attribute, and now that this attribute is gone it has no reason to be kept ; all spearmen should have a +4 to defence instead

In my EDU I've replaced the +4 to attack with the proper +4 to defence; sadly I've done a lot of other changes according to my taste, that alter considerably the gameplay, so I never posted the file in the past: this is a zombie horse that sometimes rise from the grave you know...

Anyway, from my little experience as modder I think: if overall balance is saved, nobody should care, the EB team have more important things to worry about (EBII... and sometimes RL I suppose...)

i suggest not cancelling out the defense skill penalty by adding +4. that is a proper distinction that it is harder to parry with a spear than with a sword...

[Drewski]

i suggest not cancelling out the defense skill penalty by adding +4. that is a proper distinction that it is harder to parry with a spear than with a sword...

I agree totally. Spears and Pikes even with the "phantom" +4 attack removed, are still quite tough enough. They get a bonus vs Cavalry, and most Elite Spears/Pikes still have higher attack than Elite Sword units (even with 4 attack removed).

[Aurgelmir]

I agree with above posters. I've spent all evening looking through the Unit files, and have to agree it should really be classed as a Bug. Take the Ambusher unit (Luso Skirmisher). I was wondering why on earth they were doing so much damage against my Principes in several battles. Well its because they have a higher attack, with better lethality! (2nd weapon, spear) And they are Skirmishers!!

I also realised that all The Phalanx units too have +4 to attack (they are class long_pike AND light_spear), where they shouldn't. It makes some of the higher Phalanx units quite crazy (19 base attack in one case, 19!!!)

So I manually went through the whole Edu (twice to be sure) and took 4 attack away from all Spear units, Pikes included. The units look at lot more sensible now, and swords and axes vs spears seems now balanced. With the base EB 1.2 values, its like every Spear unit starts out with a Silver Chevron in attack

If anyone wants the file with these modifications, just ask and I'll post it, cos it takes hrs to do it yourself manually.

Could tou PLS post your EDU?
I started myself..

Yesterday,playing pontus i made an army only using axeman/hillmann/scythian mercs(i really like there looks)

So i had a full-stack axearmy...composed with 4 different units...
In my opninon the best looking army in EB.
Butchering the romani,that part goes well,but then i turned to carthago....there libian spearman pawned me?? i still won,but it took alot of casulties even when i was flanking there side's

I only used to have 2 or 3 units of axe/swordman.Now i used a whole army of them,i came to the conclusion...Never doing such thing again lol Despite how cool they look

[McHrozni]

I dunno about you but if I were to get stabbed by a spear or a sword, I'd probably die without the proper medical care.

This is actually far from certain. If you wouldn't suffer damage to any major blood vessels or organs and didn't suffer from a severe infection afterward, you could very well live to fight another day.
A human body can be surprisingly resilient. Of course you'd likely suffer some consequences to your overall health, and the scar would be pretty visible, but a battlefield wound wasn't necessarily an automatic death sentence.

McHrozni

[Aper]

i suggest not cancelling out the defense skill penalty by adding +4. that is a proper distinction that it is harder to parry with a spear than with a sword...

... well, I think you have a point.
Anyway, this malus will nicely portrait the vulnerability of phalanxes on the right side.