Underpowered units?

[Phalanx300]

I found two units which stats didn't really feeled well if you looked at their description.



The Baktion Agema, they are weaker then indogreek Hoplites while they are an elite?




The Cherusci unit, they have a very weak defense while there unit description says that they had a exceptional good one.

Just curious why this is?

I'm also a bit wondering why the Spartiatai are weaker then the Epileptikoi, would seem to me that they would have a advantage over them.

[SwissBarbar]

Why would the spartiatai have an advantage over the elite Epilektoi. Their badass-THISISSPARTA-time is quite over

[Publius Aelius Hadrianus]

Hi.

I´m new so i´m probably mistaken. The Marian Legions, in their description it says they can easily be considered the must disciplined and versatil heavy infantry in the world which, in turn, can easily be translated in the best heavy infantry in the world but somehow their appear to bwe weaker than the camillian units.
Is that right or there´s something more? Because they´re supposed to be much stronger than the camillian units after all they were professionals.

Thx

[machinor]

Well, "disciplined" = higher morale. "most versatile" cannot be transformed into RTW engine mechanics. Roman legionaires were quite able in horse-riding, using ranged weapons (slings), siege warfare etc. etc. They had superior training in many fields. But that cannot be translated into RTW game mechanics.

[Tolg]

I doubt that even Sparta's proto-Nazi training can produce soldiers that are better than the best soldiers chosen from the many thousands of soldiers of a polis, it just produces more of them.


An example to make my point clear (transferred to modern times):

Imagine that you randomly choose 100 newborns and them you give them the best education there is, the best kindergarten, the best school, the best university etc. - You get the idea -
And than there's the rest of the world. 100,000 newborns, they just get a normal eduction, not bad, but nothing special (A normal kindergarten, a normal school, a normal university...)

Now if you in a test for all the abilities taught of course the former would do better in average, but if you just compare the best one of both groups, the later would do likely do better, because the chance that there's a second Einstein among the 100,000 is much higher than that he coincidently ends up among the 100 "chosen ones".

Now of course there are some problems with this comparison (superior genes etc.) but in general it's the same for Epilektoi and Spartiates.

[antisocialmunky]

The Marian Legion is a jack of all trades unit. It can do everything kinda well and do it until its at like 20%. However, they take higher casualites in assault roles due to their lower stats.

[Publius Aelius Hadrianus]

Well, "disciplined" = higher morale. "most versatile" cannot be transformed into RTW engine mechanics. Roman legionaires were quite able in horse-riding, using ranged weapons (slings), siege warfare etc. etc. They had superior training in many fields. But that cannot be translated into RTW game mechanics.

Thx Machinor. I beleive that the "most disciplined" in their description also mean that they´re the ones who can perform their manouvers best since this requires a lot of discipline and training.

The Marian Legion is a jack of all trades unit. It can do everything kinda well and do it until its at like 20%. However, they take higher casualites in assault roles due to their lower stats.

THx antisocialmunky. Shouldn´t they have higher stats to compensate what cannot be represented in the game?

Because Discipline and versatility are the most important things to an army. Ah, and good equipment.

Thx

[Mediolanicus]

Don't forget the Marians have 200men per unit instead of 160 (Polybian and Camillian).
IIRC their lethality is higher too.

Those things make them many times better than the earlier Romans, although the stats may show otherwise.

[Phalanx300]

I doubt that even Sparta's proto-Nazi training can produce soldiers that are better than the best soldiers chosen from the many thousands of soldiers of a polis, it just produces more of them.


An example to make my point clear (transferred to modern times):

Imagine that you randomly choose 100 newborns and them you give them the best education there is, the best kindergarten, the best school, the best university etc. - You get the idea -
And than there's the rest of the world. 100,000 newborns, they just get a normal eduction, not bad, but nothing special (A normal kindergarten, a normal school, a normal university...)

Now if you in a test for all the abilities taught of course the former would do better in average, but if you just compare the best one of both groups, the later would do likely do better, because the chance that there's a second Einstein among the 100,000 is much higher than that he coincidently ends up among the 100 "chosen ones".

Now of course there are some problems with this comparison (superior genes etc.) but in general it's the same for Epilektoi and Spartiates.

I don't really agree with that, training can make al the difference. And I don't know about morale which one has a higher one? Spartans were less likely to rout then most other Greeks seeing the harsh rules of doing that.

I do think that soldiers which went through the agoge were better soldiers then those of other poleis why at a later age decided to be professional soldiers.

[Mulceber]

Don't forget the Marians have 200men per unit instead of 160 (Polybian and Camillian).
IIRC their lethality is higher too.

Better to just say that they're 20% larger - since what you said is only true if your units are set to huge. -M

[Ludens]

THx antisocialmunky. Shouldn´t they have higher stats to compensate what cannot be represented in the game?

They are not the best heavy infantry, but the best rank-and-file heavy infantry unit. I am not sure in exactly what aspect you think them inferior to Camillian units. Maybe it's the attack factor? Remember that spear units get a -4 attack penalty against infantry, so the high attack factors of trairii and principes don't show up in combat (unless fighting cavalry, off course).

[DaciaJC]

Taxeis Triballoi



They're described as being superior medium infantry and great at flanking heavy infantry; but in my Getai campaign, they usually eked out less than a 2:1 kill/death ratio against other medium infantry unless facing Hoplitai Haploi. Camillan Hastati, it seems like, perform better while being about 800 mnai cheaper.

[Raygereio]

The Baktion Agema, they are weaker then indogreek Hoplites while they are an elite?

They aren't weaker then the indogreek nobles, they have the exact same stats.
Only difference is that the Baktrioi Agema have hardy and tire slightly less in hot climates then the indogreek noble hoplites.

And that makes sense as while the Baktrioi Agema are elites, so are the indogreek nobles.

[Nachtmeister]

I don't really agree with that, training can make al the difference. And I don't know about morale which one has a higher one? Spartans were less likely to rout then most other Greeks seeing the harsh rules of doing that.

I do think that soldiers which went through the agoge were better soldiers then those of other poleis why at a later age decided to be professional soldiers.

I would say that Tolg's reasoning is basically correct, but if "game dynamics" are also taken into account, Phalanx300 is right: The Spartans are much harder to get by, and remember they were
-picked right after birth; only the toughest were kept alive
-raised to have all their self-conscience based upon how well they fought
-trained in an environment of very severe competition.
Then, think of the effect early physical training has on the human body. If done right, that is. A child has a much faster growth rate than an adolescent or an adult. This goes both for bones (get hardened early on due to beatings and the likes) and muscles (used to utter exhaustion and beyond all the time). The effect of constantly getting combat training is obvious - and morale would be un-beatable: Spartans were organized by "messes" on the battlefield, meaning they were standing next to their families. Rout and you abandon your family (esp. the front ranks) to get slaughtered; if they already got slaughtered, what's the point in routing if you have nowhere to go to and everyone you cared for is dead).
All this could be coincidentally "copied" with individual fates of, say, some very very brawnous and dedicated and selfless Athenians. Like, three men every decade.
The Spartan agoge was an industrialized production facility for such soldiers, fielding hundreds of them...
But then, how to represent this ingame? We'd need an entirely new city-model for Sparte. Like, click "recruit" and suddenly there's no more taxes, but running costs remain, and the population is "0" and you have a full stack standing next to the city... Impossible to do with RTW.

[Zett]

I'm also a bit wondering why the Spartiatai are weaker then the Epileptikoi, would seem to me that they would have a advantage over them.

They have a higher moral, and one defensepoint (or 2?) less then Epilektoi. Higher moral represent spartiatai very good (IMO).

[Aemilius Paulus]

They have a higher moral, and one defensepoint (or 2?) less then Epilektoi. Higher moral represent spartiatai very good (IMO).

Yes, the Spartans really do have higher morals. But I believe you were talking about their morale. Do not forget the "e" on the end of "moral". Morals and morale are two different things.

Sorry, I just had to comment on this. Loads of people make this mistake.

[Lysimachos]

Better to just say that they're 20% larger - since what you said is only true if your units are set to huge. -M

Sorry for nit-picky-mode, but the Marian units are 25 % larger than the earlier units, while these are 20 % smaller than the marian ones

[Mulceber]

It's cool - thanks for the correction. -M

[antisocialmunky]

So here's a question, what the best heavy infantry unit in the game?

[anubis88]

So here's a question, what the best heavy infantry unit in the game?

My guess would be these guys

[Publius Aelius Hadrianus]

So here's a question, what the best heavy infantry unit in the game?

If we´re to look in EBteam description of the cohorts, historicaly they´re the best heavy infantry because discipline and versatility are the most important things in any army. As for the game i really can´t say.

[desert]

Well, technically Theban hoplites were even better than Spartans because they were bigger and stronger and when it got to the point where weapons were broken or discarded their superior wrestling skills meant the Spartans stood little chance.

Seriously though, instead of saying "Spartiatai Hoplitai", why can't they play some flute music when you click on them? That would be so cool.

[bobbin]

If we´re to look in EBteam description of the cohorts, historicaly they´re the best heavy infantry because discipline and versatility are the most important things in any army. As for the game i really can´t say.

Even historically I don't think the legionnaires were the best, they were so sucessful due to Romes ability to feild them in large numbers, if 100 legionnaires were to go toe to toe with 100 hypaspistai i'm pretty sure the latter would win.

I would have to agree with anubis's suggestion although it would be the Arche Seleukeia's version as the iberian guys aren't in the game anymore.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Meh, the legionaries arguably featured the most effective fighting style, especially one hardened by the standardised legionary training.

As for best infantry units, heck, I always go with Cordinau Orca. They are sword infantry, not spear, and they automatically roll off with one experience, since you need a Type IV government to build a Level Five Regional MIC in Signidunum.

[Phalanx300]

Well, technically Theban hoplites were even better than Spartans because they were bigger and stronger and when it got to the point where weapons were broken or discarded their superior wrestling skills meant the Spartans stood little chance.

Seriously though, instead of saying "Spartiatai Hoplitai", why can't they play some flute music when you click on them? That would be so cool.

First of all, in Phalanx combat it didn't really came down to wrestling. Secondly, the Spartans were trained from the age of seven to fight, they would be perfectly able to do so, including wrestling.

And they were bigger? Where do you get that idea?

[anubis88]

Even historically I don't think the legionnaires were the best, they were so sucessful due to Romes ability to feild them in large numbers, if 100 legionnaires were to go toe to toe with 100 hypaspistai i'm pretty sure the latter would win.

I would have to agree with anubis's suggestion although it would be the Arche Seleukeia's version as the iberian guys aren't in the game anymore.

i thought that only the Goidilic ones were removed...

yes then the agryaspides should take the crown...

[desert]

Then explain the crushing victories the Thebans inflicted on the Spartans in Haliartus and Leuctra?

There was a lot of wrestling involved, because when the lines collided spears often broke right away. Men then switched to swords. If those were lost, then they simply pushed on with their shields. The Thebans were bigger and stronger than the Spartans, so they overwhelmed them in hand to hand.

And I've no sources for you right now, but it was written that the Boeotians were very rustic, and more physically endowed than their neighbors in Attica and the Peloponnesus.

[Phalanx300]

Then explain the crushing victories the Thebans inflicted on the Spartans in Haliartus and Leuctra?

Strategy, the Thebans applied massively deep ranks to break the traditional Spartan lines.

There was a lot of wrestling involved, because when the lines collided spears often broke right away. Men then switched to swords. If those were lost, then they simply pushed on with their shields. The Thebans were bigger and stronger than the Spartans, so they overwhelmed them in hand to hand.

Not really, the Thebans very more phycically fit then most other Greeks because they practiced alot of wrestling. I doubt to see any wrestling in Phalanx vs Phalanx warfare.

Bigger and stronger is certainly not true, and overwhelming in hand to hand certainly isn't as well.

[A Very Super Market]

Being big means nothing. You still don't refute the point that Spartan soldiers were trained from the age of 7. They were the strongest warriors. The had to be, otherwise Sparta would have died out long ago.

And thats if you completely forget the fact that there are ranks in a hoplite formation. If you dropped your shield to wrestle, someone in the second row would stab you in the face.

[Woreczko]

Hi.

I´m new so i´m probably mistaken. The Marian Legions, in their description it says they can easily be considered the must disciplined and versatil heavy infantry in the world which, in turn, can easily be translated in the best heavy infantry in the world but somehow their appear to bwe weaker than the camillian units.
Is that right or there´s something more? Because they´re supposed to be much stronger than the camillian units after all they were professionals.

Thx

The biggest advantage of late roman legionaries is their huge recruitment area combined with a pretty good stats and cheap price. While it may not seem so, unit availability is a very important factor, both in EB and in real life.
For me, currently a baktrian player, it is pantodapoi, pantodapoi phalangitai and thanvare payahdag, who are THE UNITS in my army. Sure, I love my heavy cavalry and I`m proud of Baktrion Agema, but... But I can manage without them. However without my pantodapoi, my empire would soon come crashing to the ground. Such is the value of easy accesability + good enough stats for given role.