Ratzinger condemns condoms

[Askthepizzaguy]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

It's not difficult to pick a figure and ridicule the way they dress or how they appear in RTS games, but it's not really reflective of the reality is it?

If you read my posts in some recent threads you'll know that I far from paint a saintly picture of the Pope or the office he holds. You've stated many times you value rational thought, and that you cannot fit religion into that framework. But does that really mean you should be so dismissive of something that many people, including no shortage of them who are quite likely a good deal smarter than ourselves, hold so dear?

I have a right to be dismissive of religion, as some have a right to be dismissive of global warming or evolution. I try not to make my views a personal attack on anyone, if it helps. But just as religious people have a right to express their love of their god or gods, I can say I don't think that religion is a good idea. I don't go door to door and try to convert people away from their belief, nor do I pass out pamphlets saying how much better skepticism and rationalism is than faith, nor do I belittle people who do believe.

Conversely, many religions proselytize more than any other kind of movement, tell you that your beliefs are dead wrong, and that you will burn in eternal hellfire if you don't convert. I find that offensive, but I allow it to happen, because it's freedom of speech.



By the way I am looking forward to our conversation about the merits of faith, I am just bogged down at the moment with any number of games and such.

[ajaxfetish]

Yeah, you won't die if you don't have sex, but that's not the point. Sex is good. Not just the pleasure you get from it, but it relieves tension, stress, helps people bond. For males, the build up of testosterone can have dangerous consequences, it can even lead to violent behavior etc...

Don't encourage them not to have sex, encourage them to have safe sex and educate them how to do it.

Eh, I didn't think the Vatican's position was anti-sex. I thought it was anti-extra-marital-sex. Don't they encourage sex between married couples? And isn't monogamous sex comparatively safe? Perhaps the Pope is advocating your position after all, just within the confines of Catholic doctrine.

Also we should start burning witches again because it is a good old church tradition...

Hey, I'm just as much in favor of bringing back witch burnings as the next guy (or hangings, if you want to get technical), but that was always more of a Protestant shindig. Catholics were more into burning heretics.

Ajax

[Rhyfelwyr]

I have a right to be dismissive of religion, as some have a right to be dismissive of global warming or evolution. I try not to make my views a personal attack on anyone, if it helps. But just as religious people have a right to express their love of their god or gods, I can say I don't think that religion is a good idea. I don't go door to door and try to convert people away from their belief, nor do I pass out pamphlets saying how much better skepticism and rationalism is than faith, nor do I belittle people who do believe.

Conversely, many religions proselytize more than any other kind of movement, tell you that your beliefs are dead wrong, and that you will burn in eternal hellfire if you don't convert. I find that offensive, but I allow it to happen, because it's freedom of speech.



By the way I am looking forward to our conversation about the merits of faith, I am just bogged down at the moment with any number of games and such.

You do indeed have that right, although the tone was a bit patronising (pointy hat for example). My point was that just because you don't like the idea of religion does not mean you should dismiss its influence upon the world, in the case of this thread the AIDS crisis in Africa. The man in the pointy hat has a very real influence upon many people, just like all those men dressed like penguins that fly around the world to engage in international diplomacy.

Ultimately, it is true Christianity does carry an offensive message, people put their faith in something higher than the individual, and this leads to many false accusations of hate or fearmongering. But it would be unfair to say that all Christians are not respectful in the deliverance of their message. Also, for what it's worth, I wouldn't threaten people with eternal hellfire.

I'm also looking forward to our discussion, although I fear we may be shooting at different levels. Remember, from a religious perspective, religion doesn't exist to serve society, although it's always nice when it is helpful.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Conversely, many religions proselytize more than any other kind of movement, tell you that your beliefs are dead wrong, and that you will burn in eternal hellfire if you don't convert.

How many evangelizing people have said to you that you will burn if you don't convert, and what religion where these people preaching?

CR

[Askthepizzaguy]

Too numerous to mention, and I'd prefer not to say here, as I think that's off topic.

Plus, focusing on just those people paints an unfair picture of a majority of religious people. It is not the militant psychotics which I criticize, because those exist regardless of philosophy or lack thereof; the primary criticism is where otherwise decent moral people would have a bias towards certain political affiliations, policy decisions, personal choices, privacy rights, social acceptance of certain groups, and attempt to teach religion alongside science as if it were a scientific discipline, based purely off of ancient texts and traditions, and considering those traditions with unequal weight from more recent data and knowledge.

I'd be willing to discuss this in more detail in another thread. I invited Rhyfelwyr, and I'd prefer to do this one at a time, but you'd also be welcome to the discussion CR.

[Xiahou]

I'm sure others have touched on this, but I find statements such as these to be hilarious:

With Africans - 22 million of whom are infected with HIV - hanging on his every word, that made his statement aboard the plane heading to Cameroon this week all the more significant.

Really now? If people listened to everything the pope said, there would be no AIDs epidemic in Africa. Blaming the pope for the spread of AIDs is laughable. If they really listened to him everyone would be monogamous and no one would have extramarital sex. Sounds more like the problem is caused by people not listening to the pope.

[Sarmatian]

Eh, I didn't think the Vatican's position was anti-sex. I thought it was anti-extra-marital-sex. Don't they encourage sex between married couples? And isn't monogamous sex comparatively safe? Perhaps the Pope is advocating your position after all, just within the confines of Catholic doctrine.

Trust me, Pope doesn't advocate my position. If he did, he'd be kicked out from Vatican before you could say "condom".

On a serious note, it seems to me that Catholic Church advocates two things: no extra-marital sex and no contraceptives, which means only sex within wedlock is sin-free and only for the purpose of procreation (since contraceptives are a no-no). Although, quite naturally, there are instances where married couples engage in sex for the specific purpose of getting children, most of the times it's just about sex.

So, although Catholic doctrine isn't specifically anti-sex, it is so confining that it would allow you to have sex only under very specific circumstances which happen rarely. I'm not Catholic (and even if I were, I'd probably ignore the Pope, just like I ignore the Patriarch) so it's all the same to me, just saying how I see it...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

To be fair, fundamental Christian doctrine preferences celibacy and always has. This is scriptural, but it also allows that most people want to have sex and that denying that would be bad. So you get married.

tibilicus, I have participated in "youth culture" as you term it. There was pressure to have sex but it eased off by 18, and frankly there was more pressure to drink than copulate.

[Major Robert Dump]

Abstinence will not only make the AIDs situation better, but it will also help to stem off global warming because condoms are not biodegradable and it will decrease the emitting of ozone-damaging vaginal gasses. Abstinence, when practiced properly, can furthermore help pull the world out of recession because it means wall street will stop screwing us.

[rvg]

Heck, if humans at least stuck to just screwing their own species, AIDS would have never happened.

[Strike For The South]

Heck, if humans at least stuck to just screwing their own species, AIDS would have never happened.

AIDS is a CIA conspiracy to get rid of the blacks.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

On a serious note, it seems to me that Catholic Church advocates two things: no extra-marital sex and no contraceptives, which means only sex within wedlock is sin-free and only for the purpose of procreation (since contraceptives are a no-no). Although, quite naturally, there are instances where married couples engage in sex for the specific purpose of getting children, most of the times it's just about sex.

The church acknowledges sex in marriage for more than procreation. The element of couple bonding that it affirms/generates are also viewed as part of the blessing of matrimony.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Heck, if humans at least stuck to just screwing their own species, AIDS would have never happened.

Many (most) viral diseases originate among animals and mutate until capable of infecting humans. Though often cited for humor value -- I recall Zappa (Carlin?) asking who was plooking the monkeys? -- there really is no need for any bestiaphilic component.

[Samurai Waki]

While the Pope as usual makes a good argument, I have to interject that sex also feels really, really good and because I am morally reprehensible, I'll take condemnation to hell (ever had kids? whats the difference? ) over abstinence. I'm afraid AIDs, and sex isn't going away anytime soon, so having that said, it would be a fairer argument to actually encourage the little ones to make intelligent choices, educate them, and let them come to their own conclusions. When my daughters come of age, I can't not prevent them from having sex, so I'll take the low road and be open to the idea of allowing them to use contraceptives, I don't want to be a Grandfather at age 40, and I won't support the rabble, unless of course there was mitigating circumstances.

[Husar]

Conversely, many religions proselytize more than any other kind of movement, tell you that your beliefs are dead wrong, and that you will burn in eternal hellfire if you don't convert. I find that offensive, but I allow it to happen, because it's freedom of speech.

Well, it's what they believe, when you believe their teachings are rubbish, they will also find that offensive. The thing is they truly believe you will burn and want you to convert you to ssave you from that, in other words, they want to help you, how is that a bad thing?

Do you prefer the scientific side which always has to stress how the earth being round disproves the existence of God or some other unsubstantiated rubbish that doesn't really prove anything and then calls religious people stupid based on that? In case of the german media, they even ridiculed the religious people once, in a show called "news", if you think that is less offensive than a religious person trying to save you from what they believe will bring you eternal pain and suffering, then I am very offended by your beliefs.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Well, it's what they believe, when you believe their teachings are rubbish, they will also find that offensive. The thing is they truly believe you will burn and want you to convert you to ssave you from that, in other words, they want to help you, how is that a bad thing?

Do you prefer the scientific side which always has to stress how the earth being round disproves the existence of God or some other unsubstantiated rubbish that doesn't really prove anything and then calls religious people stupid based on that? In case of the german media, they even ridiculed the religious people once, in a show called "news", if you think that is less offensive than a religious person trying to save you from what they believe will bring you eternal pain and suffering, then I am very offended by your beliefs.

If I believe that if you don't convert to my faith, a serial killer will murder your family and rape your dead body (seems to be a lot quicker and less horrific than hell... a much milder punishment for non-belief) then that would be horribly, horribly offensive to you. And you would ask that I keep that nonsense to myself.

Do you prefer the scientific side which always has to stress how the earth being round disproves the existence of God or some other unsubstantiated rubbish

That's not a scientific statement at all; it sounds like you're inventing arguments out of frustration with my viewpoint. As such, I decline to continue this conversation, out of respect for the thread topic and also, proper debate.

No hard feelings, but I strongly, strongly disagree.

[Rhyfelwyr]

If I believe that if you don't convert to my faith, a serial killer will murder your family and rape your dead body (seems to be a lot quicker and less horrific than hell... a much milder punishment for non-belief) then that would be horribly, horribly offensive to you. And you would ask that I keep that nonsense to myself.

If you genuinely believed it, I would appreciate your concern. Although the personal nature of your example makes it more offensive, as well as the fact that they are promising that events will happen in this lifetime - if anyone pestered me with talk like that they would have a restraining order on them, since it sounds pretty threatening.

That's not a scientific statement at all; it sounds like you're inventing arguments out of frustration with my viewpoint. As such, I decline to continue this conversation, out of respect for the thread topic and also, proper debate.

No hard feelings, but I strongly, strongly disagree.

I think he was referring to the Dawkinesque dogmatic atheists who like to make such stupid arguments to totally disprove religious beliefs (it does happen). I don't think anyone here would make such a charge against yourself, but it is a fact that some people are guilty of it.

[Meneldil]

I don't recall him saying anything mean about you..... Obviously we differ in our assessments, but we'll set that aside.

I could go on and rant on why I think the Church is the most corrupted institution ever created by man and how Popes have been slowing down humanity's progress for centuries, but
1 - I don't feel confident enough in my english for that
2 - That's not really the point of the topic

There are those who do "give a damn," and in Africa that is a growing number. However, you are VERY much on target that the Holy Father's stance is hardly surprising or new, and the most in Africa are not making their decision (or lack of decision) on that basis.

Actually, I think the number of catholics in Africa isn't growing that much. Most new christians there are Protestants and not Catholics. They might still form the majority of the christian population, but I'm pretty sure catholicism is having a hard time rivaling Islam and protestantism. Someone with fancy statistics might be able to prove me wrong though. I couldn't find anything about that on wikipedia.

Furthermore, apparently, a lot of them (catholics) obviously don't give a damn about the Pope and his ideas. I mean, Popes have been preaching against non-marital mariage for centuries. If anybody listened to them, you'd guess the AIDS issue wouldn't be as bad as it is now.

[Samurai Waki]

Wow. This discussion got really OT.

I think both sides of the argument have been rehashed to the point that its become skull numbing.

There's a saying I picked up somewhere that goes something like "We can talk about anything you like, except Religion, and Politics; you never know who you're going to offend."

Of course in the proper context it can be used, offensive or no, especially since this is the place where we discuss such things. However, I fail to see how this has any relevance to Ratzinger's condemnation of condoms.

[Askthepizzaguy]

People really want to express their opinions, Wakizashi, in an open forum... and when they finally blurt out their opinions, one discussion leads to another. I sometimes want to tolerate off-topic discussions. I recently had one in my own Discussions of Faith thread with Reenk Roink regarding epistemology, because I could not resist the temptation to respond to Reenk's points.

That said, there should be a limit to off-topic discussion, and I agree we may have reached that here.

[JAG]

This topic shows exactly how Chrsitianity kills more and will kill more people than Islam could ever aspire for. Disgusting.

[Fragony]

This topic shows exactly how the catholic church kills more and will kill more people than Islam could ever aspire for. Disgusting.

Fixed. I guess we can now stop making a destinction between radical and moderate islam, it's all islam no? Or doesn't it work like that in leftielalaland.

[HoreTore]

How many evangelizing people have said to you that you will burn if you don't convert, and what religion where these people preaching?

CR

My cousin works as a sound-guy for "Vision Norway", the TV-station of a large evangelical and missionary church here. He started there when he was 14. Now, after he had worked there for a month or two, one of the pastors asks him if he's christian. My cousin says "no, not really"(or something like that), to which the pastor responds "well, you know you're going to burn in Hell if you don't believe, right?"

Anyway, an 80-year old virgin is frustrated at other people getting laid and wants to spoil their fun. What else is new?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

This topic shows exactly how Chrsitianity kills more and will kill more people than Islam could ever aspire for. Disgusting.

Yeah, they don't use condoms in Islamic countries either (I'd bet buying a contraceptive is illegal in some of them), the girls just have anal sex not to get pregnant.

Stop attacking the older religion with more members.

[HoreTore]

Yeah, they don't use condoms in Islamic countries either (I'd bet buying a contraceptive is illegal in some of them), the girls just have anal sex not to get pregnant.

1. It's both legal and encouraged in Iran.
2. As far as I know, there are no virgin ring crusades in the muslim world, so I don't really see why they'd be taking it up the bum... And anyway, what's wrong with anal?

[rasoforos]

the girls just have anal sex not to get pregnant.

I have never ever heard a better conversion argument

So where do I sign and do I need to bring my own lube?

[JAG]

Yeah, they don't use condoms in Islamic countries either (I'd bet buying a contraceptive is illegal in some of them), the girls just have anal sex not to get pregnant.

Stop attacking the older religion with more members.

I am quite happy and able to attack all religions as I frequently do, no religion is spared - I am sure this will comfort you.

Just so you get the facts though - Iran: http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle/...harm_reduction

Officials of the Iranian government announced last week that they are embarking on a pilot program to provide syringes and condoms to drug users in an effort to prevent the spread of AIDS and hepatitis.

http://newsocietyjournal.com/2008/07...gypt-and-iran/

The Iranian government has promoted these family planning initiatives through the state-run television and media, emphasizing the link between overpopulation and poverty, illiteracy, and unemployment. [13] The media encouraged the use of contraceptives, which were provided free of charge on demand, and legal reforms were made in favor of women. [14] Interestingly, religious leaders endorsed the program, directing all religious authorities to support family planning because it was initiated by the Islamic government. [15] Religious leaders now describe smaller families as a social responsibility. [16] In addition, the majlis, the Iranian parliament, voted to support the program. As a result, the number of women using contraceptives has nearly doubled from 37 percent in the 1970s to 65 percent now.

Egypt -

These efforts doubled contraceptive use from 24 percent in 1980 to 50 percent in 2000,

Basically, get some facts before you start trolling about 'those pesky moooselems'.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

This topic shows exactly how Chrsitianity kills more and will kill more people than Islam could ever aspire for. Disgusting.

Sorry JAG, but you may want to take a look earlier in the thread. This isn't Christianity or the Catholic Church killing anyone.

[JAG]

Sorry JAG, but you may want to take a look earlier in the thread. This isn't Christianity or the Catholic Church killing anyone.

Hmmm. Oh yes it is.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Hmmm. Oh yes it is.

No, it isn't.

If people ignore the Pope's teaching on sex, why would they suddenly accept his ruling against condoms with open arms?

Anti-Catholics here, you need to use a bit of the logic I know that you all [usually] have on other topics. If they're not using condoms, it is because they don't want to use them anyway, not because the Pope said so. Besides, try to find a correlation between Catholic African countries and the worst AIDS rates/worst increases in AIDS rates. Good luck!

I know you don't like Christianity or Catholicism, but you can do better than that.