Ratzinger condemns condoms

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Why the Pope opposes condoms

The Pope said the "cruel epidemic" should be tackled through fidelity and abstinence rather than condoms, and that "the traditional teaching of the Church has proven to be the only failsafe way to prevent the spread of HIV/Aids".

The magic solution:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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[Major Robert Dump]

Yes, abstinence will stop the rapists.

And we all know that poor, desperate, hungry people never have sex, so it should work for them, too.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

He makes a valid point. If people didn't have sex it would spread. You can't argue with that.

[Sarmatian]

He makes a valid point. If people didn't have sex it would spread. You can't argue with that.

Exactly. If people didn't eat, there would be an abundance of food in the world.

On a serious note, it's a Pope and he's against contraceptives - like any other self-respecting Pope...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Exactly. If people didn't eat, there would be an abundance of food in the world.

On a serious note, it's a Pope and he's against contraceptives - like any other self-respecting Pope...

You don't have to have sex. The Pope's point is that condoms allow people to abdicate responsibility for their actions.

Now, whether or not you agree with contraception (no problem with it myself) you have to admit that he does have a point.

People in Africa don't take responsibility for their sexual misadventures, they aren't monogomous and they don't use condoms.

[Kralizec]

This isn't any different from what the Vatican has been saying for the past century. They've always held that extramarital sex is bad and the Africans don't care. If Benedict started encouraging people to use condoms, how many Africans would follow his advice?

The Vatican's position is stupid, but mostly ineffectual.

[Vuk]

Condoms are evil. I once had a really bad experience with a condom that has left me scarred (mentally and physically) to this day. Save a horse, don't use condoms.

[rasoforos]

No Condoms = More AIDS = More suffering = More People turning to religion


Simple as that.

[Fragony]

Condoms are evil. I once had a really bad experience with a condom that has left me scarred (mentally and physically) to this day. Save a horse, don't use condoms.

I once shot one in my eye. Hate these things a pain to get it on and sex is much better without them.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Condoms are evil. I once had a really bad experience with a condom that has left me scarred (mentally and physically) to this day. Save a horse, don't use condoms.

If there's a horse involved, you're doing it wrong.

The Pope certainly has a point and it is a solid one. One can argue that real experience may be different, but his role is to teach the absolute in ethical principles.

The issue, IMO, is not condom use per se, but the powerlessness of women in many African societies. Abstinence for them is simply not possible as they cannot deny the demands of men. The Church's stance fails because it has rarely championed women's sexual rights, and refuses to recognise that advocacy of condom use should be a method of empowering women, not promoting promiscuity.

[rasoforos]

The Pope certainly has a point and it is a solid one. One can argue that real experience may be different, but his role is to teach the absolute in ethical principles.

Banquo I think you are over simplifying this. One could argue that the most absolute ethical principle of the church is to 'do good'. I believe that this 'doctrine' is ahead of any more specific moral theological views as in 'do not throw your seed on the earth'. If we take it one step forward and agree that the pope's statement did more bad than good (as in more people will contract AIDS than if said statement was not made) then the pope is in error... ...and in contradiction will the 'good' nature of the church.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Anyhows I am kind of glad that our local flavour of Christianity does not care about such things (the Greek Orthodox church, having seen that religion is not a prosperous enterprise anymore , has mostly diversified into the real estate business )

[Banquo's Ghost]

Banquo I think you are over simplifying this. One could argue that the most absolute ethical principle of the church is to 'do good'. I believe that this 'doctrine' is ahead of any more specific moral theological views as in 'do not throw your seed on the earth'. If we take it one step forward and agree that the pope's statement did more bad than good (as in more people will contract AIDS than if said statement was not made) then the pope is in error... ...and in contradiction will the 'good' nature of the church.

I'm not sure that you are right. Our more learned theologians may differ, but I think the absolute ethical principle of the Church would be to do the will of God. We, the laity, may well have pre-conceived ideas of what is good, but his Holiness, as vicar of Christ on Earth, is there to tell us what is "right". If we believe, then it is a matter of our conscience and faith for us to follow that absolute, or in conscience, ignore that teaching at peril of our soul.

The Pope therefore, advocates no relativist teaching based on what might be "good" at this time or opinion, but what is "right" in his understanding of God's will. It is up to others to place their own relativist moral outlook on this ruling, if they wish to differ. Faithful Catholics may well observe the Holy Father's rulings to the letter - or mostly, be guided by such and their own consciences - which the Church also accepts may be influenced by the Holy Spirit.

This is not to say I agree with His Holiness on the issue of condoms, much less contraception in general, but I can understand why he might make such an argument and why it is valid.

[CountArach]

When has the pope ever been wrong about anything?

[Strike For The South]

Whats a pope?

[tibilicus]

You don't have to have sex. .

Sure you don't, but it's not viewed that way in some cultures. Africa's a good example as a lot of people their simply aren't educated in safe sex, therefore money should be used to educate them and inform them of safe sex, you can't just tell them not to have it.

Also do you not know anything about today's teen/youth culture? Yes you do have to have sex. Obviously your not forced to at gun point or anything but there's huge social pressure and a lot of desire amongst young people to experiment sexually and engage in it.

The Pope can either accept that times are changing or continue to preach his same ancient scrolls about issues which they can't simply be applied to in modern day society..

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

If people ignore the Pope's teaching on sex, why would they suddenly accept his ruling against condoms with open arms?

Anti-Catholics here, you need to use a bit of the logic I know that you all [usually] have on other topics. If they're not using condoms, it is because they don't want to use them anyway, not because the Pope said so. Besides, try to find a correlation between Catholic African countries and the worst AIDS rates/worst increases in AIDS rates. Good luck!

The Vatican's position is stupid, but mostly ineffectual.

The former is only true if you follow the one piece of advice and not the other. If you take both pieces of advice together, it makes perfect sense and is completely logical.

[Meneldil]

While I think the catholic church is stupid and the pope a reactionary idiot, I can't understand the outrage here.

Any pope is against contraception and extramarital sex. This is not news.
And Africa would be plagued by AIDS even without the pope, because to be honest, nobody gives a damn about him anyway.

Even if he threatened any catholic of excommunication if they didn't use condoms, the situation would be the same.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Faithful Catholics may well observe the Holy Father's rulings to the letter - or mostly, be guided by such and their own consciences - which the Church also accepts may be influenced by the Holy Spirit.

I think that where Catholicism is a minority or opprossed religion, the Catholics take the letter of the law much more seriously. (The Irish, the Americans, the Poles)

In Latin Europe, most Catholics take a more relaxed attitude and realise that there are a) rules, and b) real life.

the Greek Orthodox church, having seen that religion is not a prosperous enterprise anymore , has mostly diversified into the real estate business

Catholicism has moved the other way. From the largest landholding, feudal intitution to a mostly moral institution.

Which, of course, I regret. It is the ancient dilemma of the anti-clericals. One the one hand, this shift is an expressed goal of anti-clericalism. On the other, the church needs to be involved in worldly affairs, with all the neverending scandals, orgies, and abuse that stems from having two feet firmly in the mud. Or else people will start to take all that superstition, magic and transubstantation seriously.

Besides, try to find a correlation between Catholic African countries and the worst AIDS rates/worst increases in AIDS rates. Good luck!

That is an excellent point.
Catholicism is only a small minority religion in Africa. Plus, the AIDS epidemic is strongest in the non-Catholic South and East of Africa.

[rvg]

I salute the Pope in his adherence to the basic Church principles. Expected nothing other than exactly that. Furthermore, this refusal to bow down to secular pressure is once again an indicator that the Catholic Church serves God and God alone, and there isn't a single government or social group capable of derailing the Church's commitment to the fundamentals of the Christian religion. Come to think of it, Orthodox Church is also pretty much the same way: they do not look kindly upon condom use.

Either way, if people do not like it, there are plenty of other religions out there. Nobody is *required* to be Catholic.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I don't have particularly great enthusiasm for either side of the contraception debate, but I must say in this case the Pope is simply sticking to his principles.

The Pope can either accept that times are changing or continue to preach his same ancient scrolls about issues which they can't simply be applied to in modern day society..

Just as surely as it was the case 2,000 years ago, abstaining from sex protects you from STD's. If people in todays society don't want to live by that, fine, it's their problem. For all the talk of religions role in society, if you are a Christian you would not believe that religion exists to be helpful or justified to society. People should stop apologising for their beliefs and say it like it is!

[Seamus Fermanagh]

While I think the catholic church is stupid and the pope a reactionary idiot, I can't understand the outrage here.

I don't recall him saying anything mean about you..... Obviously we differ in our assessments, but we'll set that aside.

Any pope is against contraception and extramarital sex. This is not news.
And Africa would be plagued by AIDS even without the pope, because to be honest, nobody gives a damn about him anyway.

There are those who do "give a damn," and in Africa that is a growing number. However, you are VERY much on target that the Holy Father's stance is hardly surprising or new, and the most in Africa are not making their decision (or lack of decision) on that basis.

Again, I think folks get a little overly out of focus on this issue. It is not as though The Church is sending Franciscan Spec Ops teams to destroy condom shipments to Africa or terminate sex educators.

The Church, and the Holy Father, are articulated a moral stance that has been part of the Churchs view of things for centuries. Posters in this thread are almost casting The Church as the instigator of things, and one post by Rasoforos didn't label them the instigators but very definitely asserted that the Church was seeking to exploit the issue so as to enhance human suffering.

So, for those of you taking that line, is The Church a unique coterie of heartless ******** from your point of view or are all religious organizations equally wrong?

Yes, the last question does have a "snide" component. The scorn is for such attitudes, not against any particular forum patron.

[Sarmatian]

You don't have to have sex. The Pope's point is that condoms allow people to abdicate responsibility for their actions.

Now, whether or not you agree with contraception (no problem with it myself) you have to admit that he does have a point.

People in Africa don't take responsibility for their sexual misadventures, they aren't monogomous and they don't use condoms.

Yeah, you won't die if you don't have sex, but that's not the point. Sex is good. Not just the pleasure you get from it, but it relieves tension, stress, helps people bond. For males, the build up of testosterone can have dangerous consequences, it can even lead to violent behavior etc...

For myself, when I'm in a stable relationship, meaning when I have sex on a regular basis, I feel better, I have more energy and usually I'm more productive in whatever I do. God knows how many experts showed already that sex is good not only for your mental but also your physical health.

So, I believe no one should encourage people not to have sex and tell that sex is bad. We should teach them that sex is good but there are bad things that go along with it and educate them how to avoid them.

That's why I said what I said, meaning it's the wrong way to try to stop STD's and unwanted pregnancies and whatnot, just like trying to solve the problem of hunger in the world with telling people to eat less would be. Don't encourage them not to have sex, encourage them to have safe sex and educate them how to do it.

If both religious and secular authorities did that, the message would be able to reach further and have impact on much more people...

[rasoforos]

I salute the Pope in his adherence to the basic Church principles. Expected nothing other than exactly that.

Amen brother. And his holiness should finally do something about all those heretics that say the Earth is a Sphere. Also we should start burning witches again because it is a good old church tradition...

Furthermore, this refusal to bow down to secular pressure is once again an indicator that the Catholic Church serves God and God alone

How do we know God does not like rubbers? No really, there is no verse about rubbers in the bible. It is a bit far fetched to assume that God agrees.

Come to think of it, Orthodox Church is also pretty much the same way: they do not look kindly upon condom use.

They know better than that... I have yet to see an archbishop issue anti-rubber decrees.

[rvg]

Amen brother. And his holiness should finally do something about all those heretics that say the Earth is a Sphere. Also we should start burning witches again because it is a good old church tradition...

Church does not doubt the shape of the Earth. If fact, as far as Christianity is concerned, the shape of the Earth is irrelevant.

How do we know God does not like rubbers? No really, there is no verse about rubbers in the bible. It is a bit far fetched to assume that God agrees.

Genesis 38:6-10

They know better than that... I have yet to see an archbishop issue anti-rubber decrees.

So, if you ask an Orthodox priest whether or not it is okay to use condoms, will you receive an affirmative answer?

[Rhyfelwyr]

Amen brother. And his holiness should finally do something about all those heretics that say the Earth is a Sphere. Also we should start burning witches again because it is a good old church tradition...

He was talking about principles, not traditions, there is a big difference.

[rasoforos]

Genesis 38:6-10

γνοὺς δὲ Αὐνὰν ὅτι οὐκ αὐτῷ ἔσται τὸ σπέρμα, ἐγίνετο ὅταν εἰσήρχετο πρὸς τὴν γυναῖκα τοῦ ἀδελφοῦ αὐτοῦ, ἐξέχεεν ἐπὶ τὴν γῆν τοῦ μὴ δοῦναι σπέρμα τῷ ἀδελφῷ αὐτοῦ.

Ok first of all lets see the piece of story that this whole thing is based on.

There is this guy Judah who had three sons. One of them, Er, got married to Thamar. But God did not really fancy Er so he murdered him. He then went to his brother Onan and said 'Go your brother's wife so your brother has descendants but Onan would ejaculate on the earth because the descendants wouldn't be his. So God killed him. Then the father of the two boys said to the widow 'When my young son grows up you will get married to him'. But time goes by, the third son becomes adult and still Thamar doesn't get her third husband.

One day, after his wife died, the father goes to shear some sheep. Thamar gets covered from head to toe and goes to wait for him to pass by. When he does he thinks she is a prostitute and long story short he promises her a kid goat to have sex with her. She complies and gives birth to twins.

<---- This?! This is supposed to teach us morality...Women passed around and promised to people and tricking old men who don't mind visiting prostitutes soon after their wife died...ya...


There is no explicit mention to contraception or to condoms. It is however explicitly explained that:

a)If God wants you to have sex with your late brother's wife to have children then you have to do it.

b)Your sperm should not fall on the earth (and I have to say that condoms are a great means of making sure it does not)

[Sarmatian]

b)Your sperm should not fall on the earth (and I have to say that condoms are a great means of making sure it does not)

There are other ways, too, but most women are reluctant to do it

Now that someone mentioned Orthodox Church, I have to say I don't remember Serbian Patriarch or any other high-up in the church advocated not using rubbers. If you go to a priest and ask him specifically about condoms and/or other contraceptives he may say something but I don't think there was an active campaign against contraceptives ever. It seems Orthodox Church is more liberal when it comes to sex, for example, Orthodox priests are allowed to get married and have kids. Just an observation, though, I could be wrong. I'm not really into religion...

[Rhyfelwyr]

The special circumstances in Genesis 38:6-10 mean that the passage is not particularly well suited to deriving doctrine from. It is not specifically because he spilled his seed, but rather that he disobeyed God, that Onan is killed.

There's nothing else in the Bible to suggest that contraception would not be OK to use. I suppose sex without procreation would still have a good purpose for any married couple, whether it would strengthen their relationship, improve their health or whatever. Indeed, God created Eve to Adam would not be lonely, and sex may be a valid part of their relationship, whether or not it produces children.

On the other hand, it seems decadent to rejoice in worldy pleasures, which would be very much against the message of the New Testament. So I'm not sure.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Whats a pope?

A Pope is a man in a pointy hat who tells people to go on crusades, and also to stop attacking their Christian neighbors. He also looks pretty cool on the battlefield, and it is really fun to slay him.

Other than that, he's mostly unimportant.

[Rhyfelwyr]

A Pope is a man in a pointy hat who tells people to go on crusades, and also to stop attacking their Christian neighbors. He also looks pretty cool on the battlefield, and it is really fun to slay him.

Other than that, he's mostly unimportant.

It's not difficult to pick a figure and ridicule the way they dress or how they appear in RTS games, but it's not really reflective of the reality is it?

If you read my posts in some recent threads you'll know that I far from paint a saintly picture of the Pope or the office he holds. You've stated many times you value rational thought, and that you cannot fit religion into that framework. But does that really mean you should be so dismissive of something that many people, including no shortage of them who are quite likely a good deal smarter than ourselves, hold so dear?