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Thread: India

  1. #1
    Member Member Cyrus's Avatar
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    Default India

    Hello!
    I'm currently playing a bactria campaign, on H\M with BI.exe, i have Alexandropolis,Kophen,gava haomavarga and of course baktra. I'm an ally of pahlava, saka and others not important, and i'm not at war with anyone. I'm planning an expedition into india before i attack AS and my only armie is made up of peltasts, phalangitai deuteroi and various tipes of archers, including speared ones. i took a look at the garrison in the northernmost settlement and it's monstrous, how the hell am i supposed to kill all those men and elephants? How did yall do it?
    thx in advance.


    Italians do it better! Chi dice donna dice guai. Abbi donna di te minore, se vuoi essere signore. Donne e buoi dei paesi tuoi. Fiume, grondaia e donna parlatora mandano l'uomo di casa fuora.
    And my personal favorite: "Non rimuovere il confine antico fissato dai tuoi padri". In english: "Do not remove the anchent border placed by your fathers". It looses something in the translation......

  2. #2
    Legatvs Member SwissBarbar's Avatar
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    Default Re: India

    if you have time, you could attack the city, shoot your arrows over the wooden wall and retreat when no arrows are left. Then you repeat this, until the garrison is weak enough. BTW: your peltasts are a very good weapon against elephants, maybe combined with fire-arrows...
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  3. #3
    Member Member Cyrus's Avatar
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    Default Re: India

    Yeah, that's why i recruited them, the problem with your strategy is that all indian settlements are with stone walls.


    Italians do it better! Chi dice donna dice guai. Abbi donna di te minore, se vuoi essere signore. Donne e buoi dei paesi tuoi. Fiume, grondaia e donna parlatora mandano l'uomo di casa fuora.
    And my personal favorite: "Non rimuovere il confine antico fissato dai tuoi padri". In english: "Do not remove the anchent border placed by your fathers". It looses something in the translation......

  4. #4
    Member Member Nachtmeister's Avatar
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    Default Re: India

    You will have to starve them... They will sally on the final turn before surrender.
    Careful - something about sieges is bugged in eb; somehow the player (in contrast to AI-controlled factions) can not cause devastation while laying siege. As a result, your army will be VERY short-rationed and belt-tightened after the time it takes to starve the garrison to the point of sallying.
    => LOW morale. Make no mistakes; your men will rout instantly.
    Archers have almost no effect on the elephants - at least not within the short time it takes them to get to you.
    Have
    -four units of peltastai in RESERVE to "catch" the elephants once they are close enough, but also have at least
    -two units of akontistai (more javelins and in this battle it is a matter of life and death); the rest of your army should be
    -four units of pantodapoi phalangitai to be at least moderately safe from those guild warriors - let them reach anything else in melee and you are done for.
    I managed to save my army (in spite of having only two units of pikes) because I role-played logistics and had
    -three (!) FMs present when the enemy sallied.

    Guild warriors are moderately vulnerable to rear-charges. Yes, they do die, but while some of them die, the rest keep up an insane kill rate.
    Your archers will only become useful when the enemy is already routing; your cavalry will be far too busy trying to save your other units from the guild warriors. Do not engage Indian longbowmen in melee - with those crazy swords they are more lethal than Rhomphaiaphoroi (again, they die VERY fast, but they kill even FASTER). I have seen generals get butchered and spearmen routed at their hands. Kill them with archers instead, they will drop like flies to ranged attack. (Obviously do not try shooting any units still on the walls - futile...).

    Due to another bug in the engine, your army will not pursue routers in siege battles with you as the attacker until you own at least one of the settlement's gates. As we are talking about stone walls here, forget pursuit --- THIS is why you did well in bringing archers along. Just shoot them as they run.
    Last edited by Nachtmeister; 03-20-2009 at 22:42. Reason: typo

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  5. #5
    Member Member Raygereio's Avatar
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    Default Re: India

    Here's how I did it.
    Have an army of mainly skirmishers and archers (I went with 6 Persian Archers, 6 Peltastai, 2 Pantodapoi Phalangitai, 4 Thureophoroi and 2 FM's).
    First in the siege, take the walls on the opposite side of the city of where the AI deployed it's units on the walls. Place your skirmishers on those walls, and use a throw-away unit, or one a FM, to lure the elefants to your skirmishers.

    The 2 non-general elephant units will die pretty quickly. The general elephants will probably also require some flaming arrows from your archers (who are also on the walls) or some javalins from the Thureophoroi in their backside before they die or start rampaging.
    With the elephants gone, the hardest part is over. Now take as many of the Longbowmen and especially the Guild Warriors out with your archers before they run out of ammo.

    Then mop up the rest by using some Pantodapoi Phalangitai to pin them down, flank with some Thureophoroi and charge again and again with your FM's.
    Last edited by Raygereio; 03-20-2009 at 14:24.

  6. #6
    Barcid Member soup_alex's Avatar
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    Default Re: India

    Odd. In my game, only the northernmost has stone walls; the other two both have only wooden palisades, but the same huge army in each.

    Personally, I wouldn't get into an archer duel with them, especially when they have the wall, as their longbowmen are easily the equal of, if not better than, your Subeshi archers. If you have access to armoured Persian archers, they should be somewhat more effective.
    Oh, and on longbowmen: I'd be reluctant to bring cavalry to sort them out, even if you're planning on forcing them to sally. Their sword-axes are nasty, and it's difficult to get a decent charge in as they nearly always form up in long and loosely-ordered lines (normally I only see AI troops entering loose formation when they think they're about to come under fire, but these longbowmen seemed to do it every time, even though my missiles were concentrated on the elephants and unarmoured spearmen).

    Oh, and make sure you bring some slingers for the relatively well-armoured Guild Warriors, as the more of them you can lay to rest before they start chewing up your infantry, the better.
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  7. #7
    Legatvs Member SwissBarbar's Avatar
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    Default Re: India

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Yeah, that's why i recruited them, the problem with your strategy is that all indian settlements are with stone walls.
    Ok, next method:

    Starving is great as Nachtmeister said. But if the enemy army is much stronger than yours he will make a sally. Now it depends on the composition of the enemy's army. Either you fight them, as Nachtmeister proposed (great explanation btw!) OR you station your melee-fighters at the red line at the very border of the battlefield, and just shoot the enemy to pieces with your archers when they "crowd" off the gate and then RUUUUUN (but this requires the enemy not to have faster units like cav. or sth.). After your retreat you do this again, so long as the enemy makes sallies. After that, you switch to Nachtmeisters tactic.
    Last edited by SwissBarbar; 03-20-2009 at 14:29.
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  8. #8
    Member Member Cyrus's Avatar
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    Default Re: India

    Woah! that sounds insanely difficult.....
    Anyway what if i do like this, i have 4-5 units of pantodapoi, 4 peltasts,4-5 FMs and 5 archers.
    I send in the army without a FM so as to not get the rationing trait and wait until they are 3 turns away from sallying and then get my FMs there right on time for the sally.
    Hell, this will be one big fucking battle...........


    Italians do it better! Chi dice donna dice guai. Abbi donna di te minore, se vuoi essere signore. Donne e buoi dei paesi tuoi. Fiume, grondaia e donna parlatora mandano l'uomo di casa fuora.
    And my personal favorite: "Non rimuovere il confine antico fissato dai tuoi padri". In english: "Do not remove the anchent border placed by your fathers". It looses something in the translation......

  9. #9
    Legatvs Member SwissBarbar's Avatar
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    Default Re: India

    hope you'll share the result with us

    Some skirmishers besides the archers would be helpful too, just in case..
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  10. #10
    Member Member zooeyglass's Avatar
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    Default Re: India

    i recall really having my baktrian ass handed back to me by guild warriors and longbowmen, back on an early campaign when i was relatively new to EB. The Indian cities simply cannot be done in half-measures: you've got to overload them or pound-for-pound they'll cut you up into tiny bitesize pieces....

    i have no extra tips beyond the excellent advice above, apart from just adding a note on the effectiveness of hitting a unit with javelins and arrows simultaneously. for some reason (i'm pretty sure i'm just imagining it), it seems to whittle down a tough unit fairly rapidly. perhaps it's just the fact that i'm concentrating fire on one unit? perhaps it's getting in shots from the side? whatever it is, a good combination of arrows and javelins, as already recommended, is here recommended again. :) and good luck.
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  11. #11

    Default Re: India

    If you're fast enough, you can try something that seemed to work for me with Phalangites out against the greeks and Epirotes when they had a bigger defence force than my attackers..
    What you do is get some expendable close combat infantry, 1-2 groups. Once the enemy tries to move out of the gates, your expendable infantry (make sure they have the Fast Moving trait) need to pin them to the gates. Have you phalangites run over and then get into formation so that when their pikes drop, you're covering what exits the gates. Move 2 other phalangite groups into a V formation so that anyone that exits the gates is now facing 3 sets of pikes. Keep in mind, arrows will be raining down on you a lot.
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  12. #12
    Legatvs Member SwissBarbar's Avatar
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    Default Re: India

    that's only effectice at wooden walls, city wall-towers would shoot you in pieces from the flank (since your phalax would turn its back to the tower, when it turns the pikes to the flank of the gates..)

    And the dangerous thing would be, if you drove back the enemy, oil and fire would rain down on you from the gates.

    So this tactic can be successful, but it is extremely dangerous and difficult to master at stone walls!
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  13. #13
    Member Member Cyrus's Avatar
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    Default Re: India

    AAAAAAAAAAARGH right when i had killed off almost all the elephants a f...ing CTD happened!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Damn it! i'll have to do it all again!!!!!!!!!!!!!


    Italians do it better! Chi dice donna dice guai. Abbi donna di te minore, se vuoi essere signore. Donne e buoi dei paesi tuoi. Fiume, grondaia e donna parlatora mandano l'uomo di casa fuora.
    And my personal favorite: "Non rimuovere il confine antico fissato dai tuoi padri". In english: "Do not remove the anchent border placed by your fathers". It looses something in the translation......

  14. #14

    Default Re: India

    I know the feeling. I had one where I only had an army of 700-ish and the enemy with like 2000+, I managed to defeat him by killing his general and thus his troops routed quite easily. Heroic victory and what not after one helluva hard battle. BAM! CTD.
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  15. #15
    EB on ALX player Member ziegenpeter's Avatar
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    Default Re: India

    Quote Originally Posted by Nachtmeister View Post
    because I role-played logistics
    how do you do that?
    Quote Originally Posted by soup_alex View Post
    Odd. In my game, only the northernmost has stone walls; the other two both have only wooden palisades, but the same huge army in each.
    Eleutheroi do upgrade their walls

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  16. #16
    ibn fuzzayd Member The Fuzz's Avatar
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    Default Re: India

    All you need are 4 units of those blue skirmisher guys and a few archer-spearmen and you're set. My stack that I sent into India consisted on

    2 Generals
    4 blue skirmish dudes
    2 Baktrian skirmishers
    3 panda phalangites
    2 archer spearmen
    2 thureophoroi (picked up as mercs on the way down to Opiana)
    2 Dahae riders or equivalent

    It was fairly cheap and easy to build up this stack. I've got mines in Kophen and Gava-Hao..whatever, so money is less of a problem now.

    Good luck!

    I lol'd madly as an elephant charge was halted in its tracks by those blue guys. 7 elephants. The other two ran amok.

  17. #17
    Member Member Cyrus's Avatar
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    Default Re: India

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fuzz View Post
    panda phalangites
    LMAO
    Anyway i did it again, and since i had the enemy depleted by waiting so long. There were about 850 men left. Exept for the elephants it was a peace of cake. Now i've conquered also pura and am beseiging the southernmost settlement in India, but the general has more than 104 units in his bodyguard
    Thanks for the help guys!


    Italians do it better! Chi dice donna dice guai. Abbi donna di te minore, se vuoi essere signore. Donne e buoi dei paesi tuoi. Fiume, grondaia e donna parlatora mandano l'uomo di casa fuora.
    And my personal favorite: "Non rimuovere il confine antico fissato dai tuoi padri". In english: "Do not remove the anchent border placed by your fathers". It looses something in the translation......

  18. #18
    Barcid Member soup_alex's Avatar
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    Default Re: India

    Quote Originally Posted by ziegenpeter View Post
    Eleutheroi do upgrade their walls
    In my case, they mostly just sit around scratching their arses, until they hit the next population milestone, when they wait for completion of the latest arse-scratching upgrade.
    Really, I'm fairly sure I started this one on at least Hard, but I see little activity from the rebels. I'm sure they must be growing/building, but they're doing it damn slowly.

    Ugh, post-heroic-victory-CTD. The worst of its kind.
    "The pathfinding around town squares is twenty different kinds of horrible."Watchman

  19. #19
    Member Member Cyrus's Avatar
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    Default Re: India

    Well i'm almost finished beseiging whatever the southernmost indian settlement is, but the pahlava broke our alliance and are beseiging gava haomavarga, wich is a huge city and so with just one pezetairoi the streets are too large and i cant defend it, the problem is i had to family members in there....... Aargh i hate that backstabbing AI
    Any suggestions on how to defend a settlement with 2 general bodyguards,1peze's and 2 archer spearmen against 1pahlava gen,1 armoured HA,1 thureophoroi and 3 more units of light infantry?
    I can't defend the gate since he has like 4 rams, i tried putting the peze's in the only way to the center, but those fucking armoured horses just get trough them.......


    Italians do it better! Chi dice donna dice guai. Abbi donna di te minore, se vuoi essere signore. Donne e buoi dei paesi tuoi. Fiume, grondaia e donna parlatora mandano l'uomo di casa fuora.
    And my personal favorite: "Non rimuovere il confine antico fissato dai tuoi padri". In english: "Do not remove the anchent border placed by your fathers". It looses something in the translation......

  20. #20
    Slixpoitation Member A Very Super Market's Avatar
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    Default Re: India

    Use your own bodyguards to delay them a bit ahead of the phalanx, and then retreat into it.


    It works better than it sounds.

    Alternatively, let them charge the phalanx, then swing around and charge them
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  21. #21
    amrtaka Member machinor's Avatar
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    Default Re: India

    Another strategy would be to lure the enemy army out of the city into a river battle. I once accidentaly did that and managed to do quite good. Just make sure you have enough archers (I prefer the Persians) and a phalanx to hold the line. Some skirmishers are also quite handy. And some death dealers who can prevail against the guild infantry. Sometimes (especially the northern city) the AI sends his army roaming around. That's your chance to quickly take the city by surprise. I usually do not have any major problems dealing with the Indians.

    EDIT:
    This is of course still refering to the discussion about besieging the Indian settlements.
    Last edited by machinor; 03-21-2009 at 17:37.
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  22. #22
    Member Member amritochates's Avatar
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    Default Re: India

    Ok heres the cheesy-easy way to siege eleutheroi settlements with monster armies:

    Siege with a numerically large yet balanced army, siege said settlement, wait till one one turn to end of siege , disengage- wait a turn or not and restart the siege. At the end of the second siege the rebel army units will be down to 15-20% strenght.

    Now you can fight out the sally battle with a sufficiently large numerical superiority to gain certain victory, though in most cases due to your superior numbers the city will capitulate with out a fight.

    Exterminate, set up garrison and move on.

    Ps. for best effect use a captain led army for both siege operations, and introduce the fm at turn before the sally to get him blooded trait while avoiding the siege related negative trait.
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  23. #23

    Default Re: India

    For me peltasts are the key. Ye spear-chucker will win the battle for ya.

    I've noticed that my favorite units, Hellenic Native Phalanxes and Persian Archers are well-nigh-unto-useless. Get natives with elephantitis feature, give em bronze swords & shields.

    To win the full stack vs full stack glory battle vs Indikos

    1) Lots and lots of ladders
    2) Suffer against the indian archers against the wall while getting the reserve of skirmishers on the walls
    3) Wait for the elephants and then chuck spears straight down on em.
    4) Watch riot ensue with elephants going nuts on enemy army.
    5) Get off the wall before you run out of time.
    6) Charge city center with your scattered remnants
    7) Scream victory during your third try; frightening all living creatures in your house.

    Oh I play on HUGE, so I can get that warm feeling from the the litter of bodies.
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  24. #24
    Member Member Cyclops's Avatar
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    Default Re: India

    Quote Originally Posted by zooeyglass View Post
    ...The Indian cities simply cannot be done in half-measures: you've got to overload them or pound-for-pound they'll cut you up into tiny bitesize pieces...
    Yep all good advice in this thread, I love the Indian campaign and I often send a well-stat'd very young heir to complete it to reap the "Indiophonos" type bonuses. My "India-busting" stack is 3 FMs (1 governor for each city) 3 deutero phalanxes, 4 akontistai, 4 archers (set to fireball: they may not ever kill an elephant but the morale damage has to help) and hired peltasts and Baktrian inf as needed to top up.

    For me the great dillema is whether to go type 1 or type 4 in Taxila. I want to extend my kingdom and that means type 1 dammit, but I also fancy the elite cav on offer if I give them some autonomy.
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  25. #25
    iudex thervingiorum Member athanaric's Avatar
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    Default Re: India

    For me the great dillema is whether to go type 1 or type 4 in Taxila. I want to extend my kingdom and that means type 1 dammit, but I also fancy the elite cav on offer if I give them some autonomy.
    Surprisingly, lvl 3 Government is all you need in Taksashila to get all the elite units there. It also restricts your building options less. Or you could "cheat" by first building Gov. 4 (and teching up to Regional MIC 4) and then building Gov. 1.




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  26. #26
    ibn fuzzayd Member The Fuzz's Avatar
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    Default Re: India

    I just build the Level 1, as usually my frontier is also to far to the west that it's not worth it to transport units that far afield. It's bad enough going from Baktra to Opiana...

  27. #27
    Member Member Cyclops's Avatar
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    Default Re: India

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    Surprisingly, lvl 3 Government is all you need in Taksashila to get all the elite units there. It also restricts your building options less. Or you could "cheat" by first building Gov. 4 (and teching up to Regional MIC 4) and then building Gov. 1.
    WooHoo! To think I hadn't realised that all I need is a type 3. Well if I take a type 3 to regional MIC4, then switch to a Type 1, it seems a lot less like breaking my own house rules...naw, I don't think I can do it.

    Still I'm happy to keep the southernmost city a type 4, its just that I have to ship in a recruited general from...errr...somewhere a bloody long way away.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fuzz View Post
    I just build the Level 1, as usually my frontier is also to far to the west that it's not worth it to transport units that far afield. It's bad enough going from Baktra to Opiana...
    Yep but I like to RP regional armies, so I build up a force in a city and march 'em out to fight as a unit together. There's a ragtag Indian Army (merged down to 1 spear and 3 archers left, the spears all got bled by phalanxes) in Pura in my current Baktria campaign, I'll either settle them in Pura (ie disbandbuild a military settlement as a sort of tie-in) or march them home to rebuild and ship out (maybe to invade Saba or Etheopia! I like all the mines down that way).

    Hw do Indian type armies go vs HA's like the Saka? The archers don't have great range, and I don't fancy chasing Saka nobles with Elephants, so it might be a bit of a mismatch.
    From Hax, Nachtmeister & Subotan

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  28. #28

    Default Re: India

    What exactly does Type III restrict in Taksashila less than Type IV. What buildings?

  29. #29
    Slixpoitation Member A Very Super Market's Avatar
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    Default Re: India

    *Sigh..

    T1
    Lvl 5 factional
    lvl 2 regional

    T2
    lvl 4 factional
    lvl 3 regional

    T3
    lvl 3 factional
    lvl 4 regional

    T4
    lvl 2 factional
    lvl 5 regional

    The other buildings start getting complicated. Not sure about them
    Last edited by A Very Super Market; 03-25-2009 at 01:40.
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    No ham, pepsi.
    They make deli slices of frozen pepsi now? Awesome!
    You also need to purchase a small freezer for storage of your pepsi.
    It runs on batteries. You'll need a few.
    Uhh, I guess I won't have pepsi then. Do you have change for a twenty?
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  30. #30
    Barcid Member soup_alex's Avatar
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    Default Re: India

    Quote Originally Posted by A Very Super Market View Post
    *Sigh..

    T1
    Lvl 5 factional
    lvl 2 regional

    T2
    lvl 4 factional
    lvl 3 regional

    T3
    lvl 3 factional
    lvl 4 regional

    T4
    lvl 2 factional
    lvl 5 regional

    The other buildings start getting complicated. Not sure about them
    ...but the build trees for each faction/kingdom/etc. are available in the EB folder (in documentation, IIRC).
    Basically, the closer to a Type I government you install, the greater the range of buildings you will be permitted to construct, e.g. I think building a Type IV precludes construction of Baths, although you can always, given homeland/subjugation/etc. support, construct a "better" government, build your Baths (for example), then knock down the Type I/II/III gov and replace it with the IV.
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