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Thread: Editing posts should be taken alot more seriously.

  1. #1

    Default Editing posts should be taken alot more seriously.

    The problem here is I can't really link to anything, since Andres has edited or deleted all of it. But here's my issue...

    In the "super bug thread" (multiplayer forums) I noticed a footer in Baz's post "Edited by Andres: No baiting here" or something like that. Now, I'm not sure what Baz put...because it was edited out, which is really half the problem here, but personally I find editing posts extremely...extreme. If you edit a post, it means people are seeing something written by someone, and yet it's been messed with...we don't know what was removed and/or altered. This removes all credibility of the post, IMO it's worse than deleting it (please note I understand the Org is fully within it's rights to do so, what I'm saying is the legal right to do something doesn't make it "'right', do I really need to pull out the "with great power..." quote? I'm sure legally you can change all my posts to say "monarch is a twat"...but you shouldn't, and you won't.).

    Simply editing a post for "baiting" is also far too much of a generic description. It's basically an internet catch all phrase for "saying something that someone might react to"...is this really that bad so that it has to be removed? I voiced my concern about the editing, admitedly I did it in a laid back, jokey way ("lol @ editing posts for 'baiting'")...sounds like a pointless observation but really I was expressing my shock that the mod was editing people's posts for something less than obscene, extremely harsh comments such as racism/homophobia.

    I voiced my complaint in the thread the editing was done ("at the scene of the crime") and Andres went and deleted it for being "off topic". Now how is this irrelevant to the thread? It's always bothered me, the internet culture of "staying on topic". Conversations flow, topics evolve, in real life we don't seperate out discussions into set topics (unless we're trying to emulate a presidential debate...). The alternative was making a thread in here which I didn't want to do, I don't read the mp forums much but I haven't noticed alot of heavy editing so I didn't think it neccessary. But Andres' forcing the thread kicking and screaming back on topic (which by the way was about 20 posts that all kinda said "stupid bug, nothing we can do, maybe make a list of cheaters"...I was hardly interrupting Frost/Nixon) by deleting my low key, short complaint and indeed Baz's reply ("I spoke my mind, and i know its right... so thats all that matters monarch lol") was also deleted.

    The Org has usually had a laissez faire approach to the mp forums, at least in the past few years I've been here, maybe because it couldn't be bothered with mp... or maybe because previous mods recognised that leaving slightly controversial stuff eg. "baiting") highlights forum trolls and makes people more aware of them, tarnishing their reputation...instead I believe it is the mod's reputation that is tarnished for being so totalitarian.

    Another point about this is consistency. If you edit Baz's post why not alot of others? I personally about a month or so ago got tired of the "vets ftw" attitude in the mp forums and made some blatantly sarcastic comments that I guess should have been edited, so has Tib (I'll single him out since he'll an OL mate, and he's also done some blatant "omg stfu" sarcastic posts.) Well maybe you missed them, you can't look at all posts, so how about the very post Baz was responding to? Krook highlighting Russians as the predominant cheaters? Baiting Russians. Yet no edit? It's alot easier to let stuff slide other than be inconsistent.

    To be honest, the MP forum doesn't need a dedicated moderator. It hasn't had a new thread there in four days and there's currently like two active threads. I'm not saying "omg I'm outraged fire Andres!". But I'm not a fan of his moderation style and even if I thought he was the best moderator in the world I'd still say an MP moderator is unneccesary.

  2. #2
    the G-Diffuser Senior Member pevergreen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Editing posts should be taken alot more seriously.

    Did it pertain to the discussion of the "super bug"? It doesnt seem like it, you were talking about moderators editing posts, therefore, offtopic.

    I know for a fact moderators don't nor do they wish to edit large portions of a post. I bet all Andres removed was the baiting part. tbh, if I see a moderator edited a post, I assume they simply removed a swear word. If you really want to know the differences, PM the person to see what they posted. It now keeps an edit log, viewable by the poster and moderators.

    Your view is MP doesnt need a moderator. My experience says it does. Most of the MP players have a very different view on what is acceptable.
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  3. #3
    The Abominable Senior Member Hexxagon Champion Monk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Editing posts should be taken alot more seriously.

    Firstly I believe this thread belongs in the Watchtower, not the Backroom watchtower.

    Secondly if you are confused or have questions (or just disagree) with Andres's method of moderation than please don't hesitate it to take it up with him in a PM. I'm sure he'd very much appreciate a 1 on 1 before you come here. Most mods have a pretty much open door policy, speaking from experience.

    To be honest, the MP forum doesn't need a dedicated moderator. It hasn't had a new thread there in four days and there's currently like two active threads. I'm not saying "omg I'm outraged fire Andres!". But I'm not a fan of his moderation style and even if I thought he was the best moderator in the world I'd still say an MP moderator is unneccesary.
    My experience modding the MP forums for the three weeks up to ETW's release taught me otherwise so I have to disagree with you. The amount of baiting I witnessed in my first week alone was quite interesting, and what I've continued to see leads me to believe without an impartial mod there backing Tomi up the MP forum would quickly degenerate. I'm not comfortable with any portion of the .Org becoming a "wild west" section.
    Last edited by Monk; 03-21-2009 at 02:15.

  4. #4
    Honorary Argentinian Senior Member Gyroball Champion, Karts Champion Caius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Editing posts should be taken alot more seriously.

    I think you can see the edited removed part... can someone confirm this?




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  5. #5
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Editing posts should be taken alot more seriously.

    To underline the above, I point out that there is not a single un-Moderated forum, of the hundreds available, on the .org.

    And that Moderators and Assistant Moderators are unpaid, drafted "volunteers" , drawn from the membership, to assist that membership in pursuit of their goals.

    Those goals comply with the simply-stated (and unchanged for years) forum rules. Boiled down are which: Don't lie, don't cheat, don't steal; don't discuss in public how to lie, cheat or steal; be respectful and honorable.

    Simple stuff. And not so hard to comply with.

    Yeah, they (the rules) might chafe a bit when I'm fired up because some n00b caught me in a flanking action in MP, or the stupid AI makes no challange to my uberSkilz, or some nutjob in the backroom thinks we outta invade Tunisia next Tuesday... of course I wanna vent: "Nutjob, you ignorant ******, *%$*@ U!!".

    That might make me feel better for 4 minutes after I click "submit", and I can brag to my wife, or my friend, or my cat, or my imaginary friend: "Dude! I told him how it WAS!!"

    But it isn't what I came here for.

    I came here for truth.

    True info on my tw game. True patch downloads that will enhance my game - not crash my computer with some virus-laden imposter. True solutions to my hardware compatibility problems. True opinions on what the best strategy might be to play this strategy game. And, in between game releases, true, honest, straightforward opinions on current events, arts and literature... you know, the things the smart guys here do/think in their off time.

    That's why I came here, and why I keep coming back. I get that truth. And I don't mind that 1% of the membership gets the power to modify "contributions" that detract from that.

    Heck, if I wanted to rant and rave, unbound, about anything, there are dozens... hundreds... shoot: hundreds of thousands, of places to go on the 'net to do that. And sometimes, I admit, I do.

    But:

    Without getting all misty-eyed and high-falutin', I'll say: this place, this org, this place where honor ain't just a 5-letter word, is where I want to be, where I crave to be, and where old-timers keep coming back after years because they, like me, hold hope that we all can recapture that spirit of cameraderie and honor and fun.

    In closing:

    gl
    hf


    and

    gg
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

  6. #6
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Editing posts should be taken alot more seriously.

    Monarch:

    One point you made that I think should be addressed by mods. Where is it the poster and where is it a mod editing that poster? It's fair that this should be obvious to a reader.

    Personally, the changes I make to wording are few. Where I do so I use green to indicate it is not the author's original phrase (I forget from time to time, but I try to do this for clarity). Other than that, its usually a pretty obvious replacement of certain words with **** or where the language has gotten too "salty."
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  7. #7
    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
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    Default Re: Editing posts should be taken alot more seriously.

    First of all, sorry for the late reply. I haven't been online since Saturday.

    Quote Originally Posted by Monarch
    In the "super bug thread" (multiplayer forums) I noticed a footer in Baz's post "Edited by Andres: No baiting here" or something like that. Now, I'm not sure what Baz put...because it was edited out, which is really half the problem here, but personally I find editing posts extremely...extreme. If you edit a post, it means people are seeing something written by someone, and yet it's been messed with...we don't know what was removed and/or altered. This removes all credibility of the post, IMO it's worse than deleting it (please note I understand the Org is fully within it's rights to do so, what I'm saying is the legal right to do something doesn't make it "'right', do I really need to pull out the "with great power..." quote? I'm sure legally you can change all my posts to say "monarch is a twat"...but you shouldn't, and you won't.).

    I edited out part of a post that was directly aimed at another patron.

    Sometimes, posts contain useful and constructive information and something that is in violation with the forum rules.

    If such is the case, then I usually edit out the "bad part" so to speak, so that people still can see the useful information.

    Quote Originally Posted by Monarch
    Simply editing a post for "baiting" is also far too much of a generic description. It's basically an internet catch all phrase for "saying something that someone might react to"...is this really that bad so that it has to be removed?
    When I edit out something that is in violation with the forum rules, it will get a generic description or maybe even nothing, because, imho, it's something between the member and the moderator. After all, there's no point in deleting/editing out content that is in violation with the forum rules and in the process repeat it again so that anybody can see what was deleted/edited out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Monarch
    I voiced my concern about the editing, admitedly I did it in a laid back, jokey way ("lol @ editing posts for 'baiting'")...sounds like a pointless observation but really I was expressing my shock that the mod was editing people's posts for something less than obscene, extremely harsh comments such as racism/homophobia.
    I deleted the post in which you questioned my action and gently asked you by pm to discuss Org policy either through pm or in the Watchtower.

    Quote Originally Posted by Monarch
    I voiced my complaint in the thread the editing was done ("at the scene of the crime") and Andres went and deleted it for being "off topic". Now how is this irrelevant to the thread? It's always bothered me, the internet culture of "staying on topic". Conversations flow, topics evolve, in real life we don't seperate out discussions into set topics (unless we're trying to emulate a presidential debate...). The alternative was making a thread in here which I didn't want to do, I don't read the mp forums much but I haven't noticed alot of heavy editing so I didn't think it neccessary. But Andres' forcing the thread kicking and screaming back on topic (which by the way was about 20 posts that all kinda said "stupid bug, nothing we can do, maybe make a list of cheaters"...I was hardly interrupting Frost/Nixon) by deleting my low key, short complaint and indeed Baz's reply ("I spoke my mind, and i know its right... so thats all that matters monarch lol") was also deleted.

    Yes, conversations flow, somebody once called it "forum chemistry". If a thread discussion evolves in something off topic, but still very interesting and related to MP, then I probably won't delete it. I could rename the thread title or move the posts to a different thread.

    We have a subforum dedicated to discuss Org policy, so yes, such posts in the MP subforums will be deleted, because they are entirely not related to MP.

    As about the internet culture of staying "on topic", the thing is that the discussions are held in public. Many people just read, but don't take part in the discussion. Other people come here to find information and use the search function.

    Threads with title X that contain anything but or only one or two posts about X are annoying.

    Discussions on an internet forum are not the same as discussions in real life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Monarch
    The Org has usually had a laissez faire approach to the mp forums, at least in the past few years I've been here, maybe because it couldn't be bothered with mp... or maybe because previous mods recognised that leaving slightly controversial stuff eg. "baiting") highlights forum trolls and makes people more aware of them, tarnishing their reputation...instead I believe it is the mod's reputation that is tarnished for being so totalitarian.
    As you probably already know, I've never bothered about playing MP so I am not aware of the approach in the past.

    As for my repuation, I'm not participating in a popularity contest here

    Quote Originally Posted by Monarch
    Another point about this is consistency. If you edit Baz's post why not alot of others? I personally about a month or so ago got tired of the "vets ftw" attitude in the mp forums and made some blatantly sarcastic comments that I guess should have been edited, so has Tib (I'll single him out since he'll an OL mate, and he's also done some blatant "omg stfu" sarcastic posts.) Well maybe you missed them, you can't look at all posts, so how about the very post Baz was responding to? Krook highlighting Russians as the predominant cheaters? Baiting Russians. Yet no edit? It's alot easier to let stuff slide other than be inconsistent.
    Staff is human and is not here 24/7. If you encounter a bad post, you can use the report post button or drop me a pm.

    The post where Krook singled out Russians was answered by Tomisama in the thread who made it very clear that such posts are not allowed. I cannot discuss here if there was further action taken on this matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Monarch
    To be honest, the MP forum doesn't need a dedicated moderator. It hasn't had a new thread there in four days and there's currently like two active threads. I'm not saying "omg I'm outraged fire Andres!". But I'm not a fan of his moderation style and even if I thought he was the best moderator in the world I'd still say an MP moderator is unneccesary.
    The MP forum is part of the Org and it needed a moderator.
    Andres is our Lord and Master and could strike us down with thunderbolts or beer cans at any time. ~Askthepizzaguy

    Ja mata, TosaInu

  8. #8

    Default Re: Editing posts should be taken alot more seriously.

    I think Tosa should edit the original post to

    Abandon all hope.

  9. #9
    Corporate Hippie Member rasoforos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Editing posts should be taken alot more seriously.

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan View Post


    Without getting all misty-eyed and high-falutin', I'll say: this place, this org, this place where honor ain't just a 5-letter word...
    What I am about to do is shameless spam but I cannot resist it...

    Honour is certainly not a 5-letter word Ah, Americans and proper English spelling.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Editing posts should be taken alot more seriously.

    Originally posted by Mithrandir
    I think Tosa should edit the original post to
    And why exactly? Its a normal post about a normal, existing issue, normally worded.

    If this is a sardonic joke, its not only ill conceived but misplaced too, since you dont actively participate in the scene/sub-forum in question.

    Originally posted by Andres
    As for my repuation, I'm not participating in a popularity contest here
    Not caring about your reputation might be nothing more than the opposite end of caring about it rather than a sign of being just.

    When you wish soemone to respect your line, the best way to ensure that, is to respect his too. You (correctly imho) demand respect of your line in the sub-forum in question while from your side you seem somewhat disinterested (wrongly ihmo) in the particular scene, its members and its ways. It would have been much easier for your line to be respected without causing misunderstandings to show a little more tuning in with the particular scene and environment, rather than forcing things out in a model of subforum behaviour that simply isnt the custom in the mp subforums.

    In other words, the Redoubt will never turn into the Parliament, no matter how much you force it to do so. At maximum poeple will jump ship eventually. And this is not to the best interest of the mp community or the org. Having a calm forum without any activity in it, isnt exaclty a happy ending.

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  11. #11

    Default Re: Editing posts should be taken alot more seriously.

    Originally posted by Monk
    My experience modding the MP forums for the three weeks up to ETW's release taught me otherwise so I have to disagree with you. The amount of baiting I witnessed in my first week alone was quite interesting, and what I've continued to see leads me to believe without an impartial mod there backing Tomi up the MP forum would quickly degenerate. I'm not comfortable with any portion of the .Org becoming a "wild west" section.
    This comment simply shows that you were not following the mp forums in the org before you went to moderate them. What was going on in the M2TW mp forum was ten fold the baiting, backstabbing and attacking that was happening in the ETW mp forum prior to the games release. Yet, a lot of it was perceived as normal and wasnt even edited out.

    This doesnt mean that i advocate that this state of affairs was best. I simply advocate to org staff and administration to not exchanging one extreme policy (eccept everything) with another (accept nothing). The mp forums need someone that doesnt belong to a current Clan or the new or the old mp communities exclusively, people like Tomisama, that not only have an impeccable reputation to the community as a whole, but also have the will to bring it all together as well as know how in order to realise what is acceptable and what is not.

    And dont say that the rules of the org apply in the mp sub-forum as well. Yes they apply everywhere but you know better than i do, that the moderator of every sub-forum appraoches them differently according to the audience of the sub-forum he moderates. Thats the importance of the moderator as well as his status among the flock of every sub-forum. The most succesful ones are those that have first hand knowledge and participation for the subject and the patrons of the subject they moderate about.

    With all due respect to Andres that is very conscientious, dedicated and willing to adapt and learn, his achilles heel imho is that he simply doesnt understand the mp scene and its politics and although he is learning, unless he turns to an mp player himself, its unliekely that he will ever understand it enough in order to moderate the forum without misunderstandings and tensions that arise from the misunderstandings.
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Editing posts should be taken alot more seriously.

    Sorry for the 3rd post in a row, but may i request that this thread is transfered in the Watchtower where it belongs? It would be nice to be able to edit posts, as the matter is sensitive and correct expressions imperative.
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  13. #13
    the G-Diffuser Senior Member pevergreen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Editing posts should be taken alot more seriously.

    As per what Tosa has said, a SP mod, a MP assisstant mod.

    Andres is not there to understand, he is there to make sure the rules are adhered to. Understanding the scene is where Tomisama comes in.

    Having a MP mod is not a great idea. Tomisama may not remain neutral forever (if he is now, I do not know) and then people can still claim he is favouring. With Andres, he has no knowledge apart from outside the forums, meaning a clean slate. Overall it still gives understanding of the community, but with an impartial head of moderating.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Editing posts should be taken alot more seriously.

    Pevergreen with all due respect, you are trying to bite more than you can chew - and this is because you are also an SP player predominantly. I remember what Tosa posted very well, and i can see the intention thank you for pointing it out - however dont try to cover up the whole issue with a *its like this cause its like this post* especially since you are not a fully active mp player for a long time.

    Its a legitimate issue and although Tosa has a strategy going about it, this doesnt mean that it is necessarily the most effective one. Thats what the Watchtower is for.

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  15. #15
    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
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    Default Re: Editing posts should be taken alot more seriously.

    Quote Originally Posted by gollum View Post

    Not caring about your reputation might be nothing more than the opposite end of caring about it rather than a sign of being just.

    When you wish soemone to respect your line, the best way to ensure that, is to respect his too. You (correctly imho) demand respect of your line in the sub-forum in question while from your side you seem somewhat disinterested (wrongly ihmo) in the particular scene, its members and its ways. It would have been much easier for your line to be respected without causing misunderstandings to show a little more tuning in with the particular scene and environment, rather than forcing things out in a model of subforum behaviour that simply isnt the custom in the mp subforums.

    In other words, the Redoubt will never turn into the Parliament, no matter how much you force it to do so. At maximum poeple will jump ship eventually. And this is not to the best interest of the mp community or the org. Having a calm forum without any activity in it, isnt exaclty a happy ending.

    Hi gollum,


    We've had an interesting discussion about this before and I really appreciate your input

    In fact, what a significant part of the MP community seems to ask for, is for the subfora dedicated to MP playing to be treated differently than the other subfora and thus for an exception on the Guild rules.

    The reason for it is because the MP crowd is not to be compared with our other membership.

    Basically, you are asking for the Org to adapt to the MP community and that is turning the world upside down, imho.

    Like any other member, the Org Org members who happen to be interested in the MP aspect of the TW games have to follow the Org rules. I don't see how that could be considered unreasonable or ridiculous.

    I do respect the MP players, like I respect every member of the Org. The only thing I ask is that the patrons posting in the subforum I have to moderate, follow Org rules, which in general means no more than being civilised, respectful, nice and friendly and some guidelines of common sense, like staying on topic or at least post something that is related to the subject of the subforum (mind you, I don't mind the occasional joke post or friendly stab at a rival, as long as it doesn't become more stabs than on topic contributions).

    I am very well aware of the competitive nature of MP'ing and I can imagine that there are tensions between members, that there are clan rivalries and what not and that some of the banter, baiting, insulting etc. is "just role playing". However, none of that is an acceptable excuse to violate Guild rules.

    Maybe it is perfectly acceptable behaviour in chatboxes, lobbies or clanfora, but it is not at the Org.

    In short: it's not "the Org should adapt itself to the MP crowd", but "Org members (including MP players) have to follow the rules they agreed upon by creating an account".

    I realise that is probably not what the MP crowd wants to hear and I apologise if this would make the MP community feel less welcome, which is a wrong perception imho. The MP crowd is more than welcome and any initiative like organising tournaments, having the possibility to recruit members or whatever seems like fun and MP related is more than welcome. But the tensions, low blows, baiting, bad language need to stay out.

    Andres is our Lord and Master and could strike us down with thunderbolts or beer cans at any time. ~Askthepizzaguy

    Ja mata, TosaInu

  16. #16
    the G-Diffuser Senior Member pevergreen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Editing posts should be taken alot more seriously.

    Quote Originally Posted by gollum View Post
    Pevergreen with all due respect, you are trying to bite more than you can chew - and this is because you are also an SP player predominantly. I remember what Tosa posted very well, and i can see the intention thank you for pointing it out - however dont try to cover up the whole issue with a *its like this cause its like this post* especially since you are not a fully active mp player for a long time.

    Its a legitimate issue and although Tosa has a strategy going about it, this doesnt mean that it is necessarily the most effective one. Thats what the Watchtower is for.

    In Total War games, yes. Mainly I play single player. However, my multiplayer experience is large. I have seen what clan rivalries can do, myself a part of that. To that respect, I've only been in two clans. One for Dawn of War and one for Battlefield 2.

    No moderating team is perfect, and there are always people that have differing opinions, yet again, this is why I like the .org, the watchtower and the entire Guild benefits from these discussions.

    If I had to pick the perfect moderating team, I would have a single moderator, who was a big name multiplayer personality, but would be completely impartial. However, I don't know anyone like that, the closest I can think is Elmarkofear. Even then, there is bias, as Elmo and I hit it off while he was still here.

    with all due respect gollum, its pevergreen. I might need to put that plea back in my sig...

    Enough from me for now, I might go watch some tv.
    Quote Originally Posted by TosaInu
    The org will be org until everyone calls it a day.

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan View Post
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    Anyone who wishes to refer to me as peverlemur is free to do so.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Editing posts should be taken alot more seriously.

    Originally posted by Andres
    Hi gollum,

    We've had an interesting discussion about this before and I really appreciate your input
    Hello Andres,
    i am very greatful you found the time and patience to converse with me and showed interest. Thank you.



    In fact, what a significant part of the MP community seems to ask for, is for the subfora dedicated to MP playing to be treated differently than the other subfora and thus for an exception on the Guild rules.

    The reason for it is because the MP crowd is not to be compared with our other membership.

    Basically, you are asking for the Org to adapt to the MP community and that is turning the world upside down, imho.

    Like any other member, the Org Org members who happen to be interested in the MP aspect of the TW games have to follow the Org rules. I don't see how that could be considered unreasonable or ridiculous.
    That is precisely the heart of the issue and as you have noticed yourself many other people of the *old* and *new* communities have asked for it, some half jokingly like t1master, others more seriously like Monarch here.

    The point these people and i tried to make in the past and you (undrestandably) are imho failing to grasp, is that the mp forum of the org had a character of its own right. It didnt have it since yesterday. It had it since org time begun and since mp begun. In fact TosaInu himself is aware of it if you ask him being an mp player himself.

    So *the world has turned upside down* to use your expression a long long long time ago in the org mp forums, and your moderating style is trying to undone this by treating it as an abomination and recent development. It isnt. It is the character of the mp sub-forum. And erasing that character wont solve the problems the particular sub-forum had in the past.

    The problems of the org mp sub-forum are political and are based in two pillars;

    a) The new and old community division and subsequent rivalry.
    and
    b) Clan rivalries.
    with the a) pillar being much much more significant than the first

    Both are part of what makes the mp scene and fortnately or unfortunately as i wrote elsewhere they manifest here because the org is the home of the old community but also members of the new community (rightly) claim their place here.

    Suppressing these undrealying tensions wont lead anywhere. It will make people simply leave. Leaving them completely free also wont lead anywhere because they will explode and they will leave scars and grudges so people again will leave.

    Accpepting them as they are but keeping them under careful control, so that they dont errupt in the warring conditions we saw in the M2TW mp forum is imho the way to go. Both old and new communities should feel that they have their place here. And stopping people from saying newby although good on paper isnt going to achieve that.

    In essence as i tried to express above the style you attempt is overprotective while the style that has being used till now (for 8 years!) was almost hands free. So the reaction you are receiving is imho completely predictable.

    Between these two extremes there is a middle-way and it is this middle way that whoever moderates the forum needs to follow. All i am saying is that is this soemone loves the scene its people and the org, finding this middle way will be much easier and faster.

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  18. #18
    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
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    Default Re: Editing posts should be taken alot more seriously.

    Quote Originally Posted by gollum View Post
    This comment simply shows that you were not following the mp forums in the org before you went to moderate them. What was going on in the M2TW mp forum was ten fold the baiting, backstabbing and attacking that was happening in the ETW mp forum prior to the games release. Yet, a lot of it was perceived as normal and wasnt even edited out.
    This goes for me as well and I'm not going to deny that I don't know how the M2TW subforum was moderated.

    If this has caused any inconvenience among the MP crowd, then I can only offer my apologies on behalf of the Org.

    What I cannot do, is turn the clock back.

    Quote Originally Posted by gollum
    This doesnt mean that i advocate that this state of affairs was best. I simply advocate to org staff and administration to not exchanging one extreme policy (eccept everything) with another (accept nothing). The mp forums need someone that doesnt belong to a current Clan or the new or the old mp communities exclusively, people like Tomisama, that not only have an impeccable reputation to the community as a whole, but also have the will to bring it all together as well as know how in order to realise what is acceptable and what is not.
    I understand where you are coming from and I do appreciate the input of Tomisama. It's an honor to work with him.

    However, the question about what is acceptable and what is not is to be answered with only the forum rules and the spirit of the Org (not the spirit of the MP community) in mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by gollum
    And dont say that the rules of the org apply in the mp sub-forum as well. Yes they apply everywhere but you know better than i do, that the moderator of every sub-forum appraoches them differently according to the audience of the sub-forum he moderates. Thats the importance of the moderator as well as his status among the flock of every sub-forum. The most succesful ones are those that have first hand knowledge and participation for the subject and the patrons of the subject they moderate about.
    The Org moderators are all different human beings, so yes, forum rules will be approached differently in each subforum and even by each individual moderator. However, we do try to be as consistent as possible. After all, allowing behaviour in forum X that is unwanted in forums Y and Z has the risk of having such behaviour spill over to fora Y and Z. There can be small differences in approach indeed, but consistency is desirable. Asking for perfect consistency is asking the impossible.


    Quote Originally Posted by gollum
    With all due respect to Andres that is very conscientious, dedicated and willing to adapt and learn, his achilles heel imho is that he simply doesnt understand the mp scene and its politics and although he is learning, unless he turns to an mp player himself, its unliekely that he will ever understand it enough in order to moderate the forum without misunderstandings and tensions that arise from the misunderstandings.
    I do recognise that some knowledge about the MP community would certainly be beneficial to the local moderator, but I disagree that it is a necessity.

    I also don't think that you need to be an MP player to understand some of the clan politics. I am certainly willing to learn.

    As for misunderstandings, most, if not all, misunderstandings can be solved through good communication. My PM box is and will always be open for any MP player who wishes to ask a question, discuss something, express concerns, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by pevergreen View Post
    Andres is not there to understand, he is there to make sure the rules are adhered to. Understanding the scene is where Tomisama comes in.
    Yes and no. My main job is indeed to make sure rules are followed. That is, however, also part of Tomi's job. As for understanding the scene, as I said before, I am willing to learn a few things about the mp community because it is indeed better to have some knowledge about the people who post in the subforum I moderate.

    However, in the end, I will always have to make sure Org rules and nothing but Org rules are followed.

    Quote Originally Posted by pevergreen
    Having a MP mod is not a great idea. Tomisama may not remain neutral forever (if he is now, I do not know) and then people can still claim he is favouring. With Andres, he has no knowledge apart from outside the forums, meaning a clean slate. Overall it still gives understanding of the community, but with an impartial head of moderating.
    I am not in the position to decide who should moderate the MP forum, so I won't respond to that.

    However, I would like to say that you are doing Tomisama a great dishonor by insinuating that he may be biased. My AM fully deserves all the respect he gets from the MP community
    Andres is our Lord and Master and could strike us down with thunderbolts or beer cans at any time. ~Askthepizzaguy

    Ja mata, TosaInu

  19. #19

    Default Re: Editing posts should be taken alot more seriously.

    Originally posted by pevergreen
    In Total War games, yes. Mainly I play single player. However, my multiplayer experience is large. I have seen what clan rivalries can do, myself a part of that. To that respect, I've only been in two clans. One for Dawn of War and one for Battlefield 2.

    No moderating team is perfect, and there are always people that have differing opinions, yet again, this is why I like the .org, the watchtower and the entire Guild benefits from these discussions.

    If I had to pick the perfect moderating team, I would have a single moderator, who was a big name multiplayer personality, but would be completely impartial. However, I don't know anyone like that, the closest I can think is Elmarkofear. Even then, there is bias, as Elmo and I hit it off while he was still here.

    with all due respect gollum, its pevergreen. I might need to put that plea back in my sig...

    Enough from me for now, I might go watch some tv.
    I didnt mean to belittle you pevergreen but since this is about TW mp no matter how much experience you have in other mp games is a bit irrelevant for mp forum politics/policy.

    I agree with you - no one is perfect, but everyone can always do a bit better.

    As for the Elmarkofear case, please leave it out, there is no point putting specific cases into this discussion because it will turn from a policy discussion to a personal discussion cutting off all communication between staff and patrons and that would be disastrous.

    Enjoy watching tv.

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  20. #20

    Default Re: Editing posts should be taken alot more seriously.

    First of all Happy Birthday Andres

    Originally posted by Andres
    This goes for me as well and I'm not going to deny that I don't know how the M2TW subforum was moderated.

    If this has caused any inconvenience among the MP crowd, then I can only offer my apologies on behalf of the Org.

    What I cannot do, is turn the clock back.
    And imho you are wrong for wishing that you could, because there was a whole lot about it that was actually a lot of fun.

    What you see posted in an mp forum is only the peak of the iceberg. The real dramma unfolds in game lobbies, in the TW battlefields, in Clan forums and elsewhere. Rivalries are part of it. And leaving people express these rivalries is what an mp forum is about. And the moderator of this forum is there to ensure that they remain a sort of lectical coq-fight and not a nuclear conflict. Coq fights (for example) are however part of an mp forum fun. Take that out and there is little point posting there anymore - noone visits a forum to get dryly information alone. So eventually people will go to other forums where they are allowed to post what the mp community normally posts - and notice that i talk about the fun of it - not bloody wars (personal attacks and the like).

    This type of fun isnt always easy to be perceived, nor are the motives of each patron if you havent went into the field yourself and gone through the proccess of learning the game by the kind instruction of other, more senior players. When you do, you get to know them and understand what or whom of what/who they post is meant to cause harm and what is not.

    As i wrote to you before, yourself you (understandably) dont - so in order to avoid trouble you disallow all that looks suspicous and in the process you do as much harm as benefit imho.

    The reason i understand all this is because before i went online, i had opinions very similar to yours. Like you then, i didnt *get it*. After i went online for quite a while though i realised why some people behave the way they do and why some posts are the way they are. You will wait to the second coming to understand these things by playing sp only - its not your fault, its just the way it is.

    However, the question about what is acceptable and what is not is to be answered with only the forum rules and the spirit of the Org (not the spirit of the MP community) in mind.
    This is precisely where we disagree. You invoke the rules in order to justify the policy and moderation style you follow without though considering

    a) The past history of the mp forums
    b) The dynamics of the mp community
    c) The spirit of the mp community

    You cant effectively help someone/something when you dont know and understand him/it. If you attempt it you risk to turn it to mechanical rule implementation and this cannot be good - it will result in cleanliness but because of lack of participation as i said - not because the forums extreme moods have been smoothed out and everyone feels he has a place in the Redoubt while the fun that comes from reading/posting is maintained.

    The Org moderators are all different human beings, so yes, forum rules will be approached differently in each subforum and even by each individual moderator. However, we do try to be as consistent as possible. After all, allowing behaviour in forum X that is unwanted in forums Y and Z has the risk of having such behaviour spill over to fora Y and Z. There can be small differences in approach indeed, but consistency is desirable. Asking for perfect consistency is asking the impossible.
    As is aiming for perfect consistency. Completely different moderating style works in the Gameroom or in the Main Hall or in the PBEM section or in the Parliament or in the Backroom. In fact id say that this is precisely what the org is doing and i applaud it. It doesnt want to do it in the Reboudt too though probably exaclty because of the recent past. Trying to ignore however what existed/exists is imho wrong - trying to blend your aims with what existed/exists is the way imho to go.

    What passes for legitimate and what not in org sub-forums depends not only upon the forum rules but on the patrons of the sub-forum too as well as the moderator personality. The mp community is more complex as it has a long history and complex dynamics that are part of it. I repeat that treating it as an unconnected group of people like say the Parliament patrons is not the best approach imho because it ignores many of its essential realities and characteristics.

    I do recognise that some knowledge about the MP community would certainly be beneficial to the local moderator, but I disagree that it is a necessity.

    I also don't think that you need to be an MP player to understand some of the clan politics. I am certainly willing to learn.

    As for misunderstandings, most, if not all, misunderstandings can be solved through good communication. My PM box is and will always be open for any MP player who wishes to ask a question, discuss something, express concerns, etc.
    I agree with you. However always remember that part of the mp community because of past events, views the org staff in the particular sub-forum with suspicion. So what may come from your lack of knowledge of the mp community may be perceived as authoritarian and predisposed reaction to them in particular. This is a direct fruit of certain events in the org mp forums and whos fault is it isnt the issue. The issue is how to span the gap. And although i know that you are willing to do so - they dont - thats why you get misunderstandings or imho you may also be creating some due to lack of knowledge of people and the dynamics of the situation.

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  21. #21
    the G-Diffuser Senior Member pevergreen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Editing posts should be taken alot more seriously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andres View Post
    However, I would like to say that you are doing Tomisama a great dishonor by insinuating that he may be biased. My AM fully deserves all the respect he gets from the MP community
    No dishonour is intended. I simply meant that he may have friends in a certain clan, which people could claim as bias, or he may join a clan in the future (he may be part of one now, I don't know) which would create bias.
    Quote Originally Posted by TosaInu
    The org will be org until everyone calls it a day.

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan View Post
    but I joke. Some of my best friends are Vietnamese villages.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur
    Anyone who wishes to refer to me as peverlemur is free to do so.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Editing posts should be taken alot more seriously.

    Tomisama already belongs to the Hunter Clan pevergreen.
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  23. #23
    the G-Diffuser Senior Member pevergreen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Editing posts should be taken alot more seriously.

    Cool.

    I havent noticed any bias.
    Quote Originally Posted by TosaInu
    The org will be org until everyone calls it a day.

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan View Post
    but I joke. Some of my best friends are Vietnamese villages.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur
    Anyone who wishes to refer to me as peverlemur is free to do so.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Editing posts should be taken alot more seriously.

    And you never will. Cheerful, honourable and firendly and whats more concerned about the TW mp community as a whole, Tomisama is a rare treasure of a member/patron.
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  25. #25
    Misanthropos Member I of the Storm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Editing posts should be taken alot more seriously.

    I don't want to interfere with an ongoing discussion, just trying to be constructive:
    The proposal Seamus Fermanagh made above sounds quite good to me. By marking the edits of a moderator in a different colour the respective 'properties' are clear to everybody. Why not making it so?

  26. #26
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Editing posts should be taken alot more seriously.

    Quote Originally Posted by I of the Storm View Post
    I don't want to interfere with an ongoing discussion, just trying to be constructive:
    The proposal Seamus Fermanagh made above sounds quite good to me. By marking the edits of a moderator in a different colour the respective 'properties' are clear to everybody. Why not making it so?
    Thank you sir. By the by, I would like to note that I have always liked your avatar name -- quite witty.


    Gollum:

    First, I can assure you that TosaInu has most definitely had input into the MP moderation discussion.

    Secondly, I don't think that Andres wants the MP fora to be devoid of "character." There probably should be a somewhat different "feel" to it that does reflect some of the rambunctiousness that so many of the MP'ers I have read evince. Adherence to forum rules certainly does not "neuter" the whole thing for the Backroom -- even though we have a few posters who seem dedicated to overloading the poor smilie that gets used as a replacement for some of the saltier curses and vulgarities tossed about.

    Third, what you are doing here, in this thread, is a far more productive way to address the issue than are blatant challenges. ANY organization must respond to direct challenges with defense. You and Monarch, at the least, are trying to go past that and generate change through appropriate discussion. Kudos to you both.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  27. #27
    Misanthropos Member I of the Storm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Editing posts should be taken alot more seriously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Thank you sir. By the by, I would like to note that I have always liked your avatar name -- quite witty.
    Thank you in return, sir. Honour commands to admit that I stole it. A balloon for you if you find out whose intellectual property I used.



    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Third, what you are doing here, in this thread, is a far more productive way to address the issue than are blatant challenges. ANY organization must respond to direct challenges with defense. You and Monarch, at the least, are trying to go past that and generate change through appropriate discussion. Kudos to you both.
    Indeed. Not something that is to be taken for granted.

  28. #28
    Mercury Member Thermal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Editing posts should be taken alot more seriously.

    I don't mean to be rude but should it even matter? If you can muster several paragraphs about editing unsuitable posts then you must just be looking for an argument, seriously....

  29. #29

    Default Re: Editing posts should be taken alot more seriously.

    And if you can drop a couple of lines in a policy-about thread without knowing really the case and the people involved you might be looking for one too...
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  30. #30
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Editing posts should be taken alot more seriously.

    Quote Originally Posted by gollum View Post
    And if you can drop a couple of lines in a policy-about thread without knowing really the case and the people involved you might be looking for one too...
    Of course, that never happens in the backroom....

    Did I get that out with a straight face?
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

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