roman formations - AI + how do you use them

[mosedavid]

according to the books I have read and own on the subject of roman warfare most experts seem to agree that the roman army would deploy in the following formation: (bear with me, theres a point to this)..

xxxx____xxxx____xxxx____xxxx____xxxxx____xxxxx
xxxx____xxxx____xxxx____xxxx____xxxxx____xxxxx -----> Vangard : hastati+skimishers / legionaries
xxxx____xxxx____xxxx____xxxx____xxxxx____xxxxx
xxxx____xxxx____xxxx____xxxx____xxxxx____xxxxx



_____xxxx____xxxx____xxxx____xxxx____xxxxx____xxxxx
_____xxxx____xxxx____xxxx____xxxx____xxxxx____xxxxx -----> Principes / legionaries
_____xxxx____xxxx____xxxx____xxxx____xxxxx____xxxxx
_____xxxx____xxxx____xxxx____xxxx____xxxxx____xxxxx


xxxx____xxxx____xxxx____xxxx____xxxxx____xxxxx
xxxx____xxxx____xxxx____xxxx____xxxxx____xxxxx ---------> Triari / Auxilary



Nearing contact with the enemy, the vangard would deploy as such:


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

: this would work by the back two lines moving into the gaps between maniples. This presented a single unbroken line to the enemy - showing no weak points. Should the front line get into trouble the second line (principes / legionaries) would advance and move into gaps made by the front line like so:

hastati maniple, engaged:

vv baddies! vvv
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx - hastati retreating
x x x x x x x
x x x x x x x
v v v v v v v

^^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
x x x x x x x
x x x x x x x - principes advancing
x x x x x x x
x x x x x x x

My question is how do you fight with your roman legions in EB? I find that if I produce an unbroken line as above the AI always outflanks me with the length of his line. If I, like some players here, fight a battle engaging the vangard as seperate maniples with gaps (see my fist pic) then the casualties are excessive even with a poor quality enemy such as the gauls. Also, fighting like this the principles have to engage because the enemy rushes through the gaps and attack them. Therefore, you may as well have an unbroken line.

I guess my beef is with the AI, They always seem to attack on a very wide front. i usually then deploy, if i have a large stack, thus:

XXXXXHastatiXXXXXXX
XXXXXSkirmishesXXXX
XXXXXPrinciplesXXXXX

XX___XarchersX___XX
XX_______________XX - Triari and Aux on wings
XX_____XXXX_____XX
________Cavalry

My basic rule is try and have a large shock force of renforcements. I usually end up having to swing my principles/second line round my flanks to secure them from attack and then any principles/legionaries/auxilaries/triari left to charge the enemy after it has been engaged and tiring. I often find myself rolling up the enemy, something which it never really does. I ALWAYS have to do this roll up when I fight Macedonian Phalanx formations. If the enemy has a full stack or an advantage\parity of numbers then they will usually attack on one or both wings and one point in the middle, to (im guessing) keep my front troops engaged.

Am I wrong in thinking that the roman army fought from the centre out and buldozed their way through the enemy? like what happened at Canne?

Also, any cavalry that is on my flank gets chased off with the enemy's spear troops. Is this realisic? historically both armies had cavalry on the wings and unless spear troops sprung a trap (like hiding in long grass etc it was horseman against horseman. This almost never happens.

Also, i usually have to end up using my triari... this was considered bad form in republican rome.

So... how do you fight using rome? What addons do you use to help with authentic battle tactics? Are we stuck, on the last EB 1.2 version with these limitations?

[Cambyses]

Assuming you are using Polybian troops - I find the old checkerboard technique works quite effectively. You cant leave the Hastati to fight on their own for long mind, but nonetheless i do keep the gaps between the maniples. Just hold the Principes back long enough to chuck most of their javelins then charge in and its usually enough to win the centre. The flanks can usually be held by auxillaries / cavalry / skirmishers. Hold the triarii back until the enemy is exhausted and them commit them to the critical point of the battle. Fresh troops in reserve does work in EB.

The vital part IMO is making use of all your javelins, as it makes the brawl a lot easier to win, even on the harder difficulties.

Against phalanxes or large numbers of cavalry, then just like in real life tactics need to be adapted.

[Drewski]

I like to use Rome too, and here's a typical set up for me:-

-------V------V
----H--H--H--H--H--
------P--P--P---P-
---------M-M------
E----T---T---T----E
----C----------C

Leg:V, Velites H Hastati, P Princepes, M Missile Troops (Archers and /or Slingers), T Triarii, E Elite Inf, C Cavalry

I slightly overlap the Gaps of The Principes and Hastati, which normally keeps the Princepes out of the fight till I want them to charge in. The Elites and Wing Triarii stop any Cavalry flanks, while also holding any Infantry that try to get around the back. Leaving Cavalry wide on the wings just makes the ais eyes go all big and beady, and rush some light spearman (read suicide) in their direction, so I don't do it. I also start with all units on Defend and Fire at will, then manually change them as the battle needs.

Unfortunately (and its the RTW ais fault) holding all enemy infantry at bay, then manouvering the Cavalry wide then charging from the rear (hammer and Anvil), is just too far effective for my liking. You can just go down the line doing this, routing one unit after another.

Imho, Cavalry are far to effective in EB. The charge I like, but they can stay in melee far too long without being slaughtered. I prefer how RTR had them, great charge, then you'd better get out of there, or you're going to lose the lot fast.

I use Sinhuet's ai formations, but find the ai is often so intent on flanking, they forget all about holding the middle. Suppose its better than the base "huge long single line" though. I also use Marcus's Roman player formations, but don't find any I really like for The Pre Marian Romans (which face it, is most of the game)....ho hum

Anyways, just my way of playing it. I really wish H & A tactics weren't SO effective though, kinda makes them a "one and only strategy". I limit myself to no more than 2 Units of Cavalry, 2 Elites and 2 Slingers per 20 stack, as a house rule.

[Africanvs]

I. Know thy Enemy

• AI line often very shallow and long in order to envelope.
• AI focus on flanks, few troops committed to center. Usually just enough to justify the center holding position.
• AI cavalry will envelope, or charge flanks. On occasion will charge frontally to get at another unit that may be behind the center, such as a general.
• AI army typically rich with heavy skirmishers in loose formation behind the main line.

II. My Roman Camillan Army Composition

• 4 Hastati
• 3 Principes
• 2 Triarii
• 1 General
• 1 Equites
• 2 Velites
• 1 Accensii
• Although not as accurate, these numbers maintain a uniform formation.

III. My Roman Camillan Army Formation and Tactics

Opening Formation:

V A V
H H H H
P P P
T G T
E

If Enemy Focuses on center:

H P H P H P H
T V A V T
G
E

If Enemy Focuses on Flanks:

PH H H HPP
T V A V T
G
E

or

PPH H H HP
T V A V T
G
E

General Tactics:

• Althought not representative of the convential method of fighting, the formation is very flexible and "feels" more authentic than a single, or double/triple line.
• One unit of equites will not likely provide enough punch for the hammer and anvil tactic, but can be used where the line is wavering or to chase down routing units or skirmishers behind the enemy line.
• I keep my general near the thickest fighting to encourage the morale of my men, and I do not use him to break enemy formations with flank or rear charges. If a General is riding all over the battlefield, he can't very well command.
• Once the melee begins, units which are not engaged may be used to flank the enemy.
• Triarii remains in reserve and can be used to repel enemy cavalry charges to the flanks. While keeping them in reserve throughout the battle would be historical in most cases, the limitations of the RTW engine make their use at times necessary. The more experienced the hastati and Principes become, the less I have to use them.
• Keeping cavalry behind the center prevents the enemy from sending a lot of units such as spearmen at your cavalry on the wings.
• Sometimes the enemy will lead with cavalry on a wing and you can meet them with yours, simulating the cavalry skirmishers involved in many ancient battles.
• Hope this helps. :)

[mosedavid]

i play on 'huge' setting so i have my hastati, principles 4 men deep - usually in 2 lines, one behind the other. That way the troops can usually break up some formations just by javelins and produce a moderately broad front.

If the wings look threatened then i will swing round some auxilary or principles and put the skirmishers (longer range than principles etc) behind so as to cover enemy skimishers or more likely than not against his skirmisher cavalry.

I only use cavalry at this stage in the campaign (equites) for scouting, running down routing units and if needs be, along with the general, other cavalry units and hammer/anvil tactics. thats rare though. I fight my battles infantry style. When ive used other cavalry i like numidian a lot in RTR and earlier EB but not sure how the stats are now.

Africanvs.... your tactics are pretty simular to mine. but what is the 'conventional' method of fighting? Fighting in a checkerboard formation makes no sense and i just cant see it working at all if the army was on the defence. Attacking, for sure, it does have flexibility but for recieving a charge ... can't see it. Did anyone ever see 'Sparacus' the film. The army advance in their quix.. formation then stop. the front line then closes up and advances as one solid unit. Yes, its a holiwood film but... A big advantage of this is that troops can see their comrades and only 2 units are able to flanked. If the remaining troops behind remain in the quix.. formation then the who army is still very flexible. Try both a solid front and a broken front and see the casualty stats after the battle.

The gap between each maniple was historically the same width as each maniple. Thats quite a gap - large enough for enemy to run round and flank.

So, as i've read, the roman army deployed in the quix.. formation but fought most enemy's using a solid line of hastati (skirmishers which were attached to each hastati maniple ran in and out of the maniple to pepper the enemy). But reading on this forum it seems that many believe the romans fought in the quix.. formation. What do you think?

[mosedavid]

just a link to some quite simplified text on tactics, explains the checkerboard layout to fighting in single line better than i ever could!.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_infantry_tactics

[McHrozni]

I usually go for double envelopment. I use heavy infantry units as an anchor to pin enemy down (phalanxes work best, Roman infantry isn't much behind), and use mobile heavy infantry units, often held in the second line, to run around the enemy units and attack from the flanks and rear.
The battle often turns into 2-4 smaller battles, fought independently. This is actually quite nice, since it is often possible to reinforce weaker lines of battle with cavalry, more reserve troops, skirmishers, etc.
I always have a few units of heavy spearmen of some sort (hoplites, triarii or similar) on the flanks, to keep enemy cavalry at bay. I only go into a cavalry vs cavalry battle if I hold qualitative supremacy.

I also like to have a few units of slingers ready, to wear down enemy heavy cavalry, force them into a premature, unsupported assault, or just to cause some general havoc.

Another thing which is good to keep in mind - generally speaking, there are several different types of forces you're likely to face, and it is a good idea to tune your army to the enemy you're facing.
Examples:
- Celtic units typically have poor armor and shields, but high defensive skill - use missile troops
- Romans use heavy infantry, usually with swords - use heavy charger cavalry
- Hellenes use phalanxes with charger heavy cavalry - use mobile heavy infantry, spear infantry and slingers
- Nomads use horse archers, use your own foot archers, or, if you want to be really lame and use the path of truly the least resistance, use phalanxes and autocalc

McHrozni