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  1. #1
    A Livonian Rebel Member Slaists's Avatar
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    Default light spear balance (vs. swords) in 1.2

    For a week or so, this thread has been developing in the main forum. The main point: it seems, that the EB developers have added +4 attack to all spear units to compensate for the -4 defense the light spear units suffer when fighting infantry; and -4 attack that spear units (not light spear) suffer when fighting other infantry.

    No conclusive response from the development team has been expressed yet though.

    My main concerns:

    1. Why was such stat compensation designed in the first place? Weren't spears supposed to 'suffer' when fighting sword units for example? With the current balance, medium swords lose in one on one fight with the lower tier spear units.

    2. Could it be that this compensation (+4 attack for light spear units) is a bug?

  2. #2
    Haruhiist Member Zett's Avatar
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    Default AW: light spear balance (vs. swords) in 1.2

    Quote Originally Posted by Slaists View Post
    With the current balance, medium swords lose in one on one fight with the lower tier spear units.
    Which levy spearunits? Hoplitai Haploi should be ok this way, but Lugoae shoudn't win in my opinion.

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  3. #3

    Default Re: light spear balance (vs. swords) in 1.2

    Quote Originally Posted by Slaists View Post
    For a week or so, this thread has been developing in the main forum. The main point: it seems, that the EB developers have added +4 attack to all spear units to compensate for the -4 defense the light spear units suffer when fighting infantry; and -4 attack that spear units (not light spear) suffer when fighting other infantry.

    No conclusive response from the development team has been expressed yet though.

    My main concerns:

    1. Why was such stat compensation designed in the first place? Weren't spears supposed to 'suffer' when fighting sword units for example? With the current balance, medium swords lose in one on one fight with the lower tier spear units.

    2. Could it be that this compensation (+4 attack for light spear units) is a bug?
    This post is quite a coincidence , as I was just about to post a mini mod :)...

    It is absolutely a bug. The values were adjusted when all the Spear Units were classes as "spear", and received -4 attack vs Infantry. When all the "Spear" units were changed to "Light_Spear", nobody bothered removing the +4 bonus. Hence now, Skirmishers (with a 2nd weapon light_spear) often have a better attack than Medium and even in some cases Heavy Infantry with Axes and Swords.

    Its not just the traditional Spearman either. You'll find all the Phalanx Units have attr "Long_Pike AND Light_Spear" and thus have 4 higher attack than they should. This completely unbalances all Phalanx Units, (just check the EDU yourself, you'll find Levy Phalanxes have a better attack than Elite Swordsmen ). Its like they all start out with a Silver Chevron in attack...

    Anyways:-

    Mini Mod To Balance All Spear and Phalanx Units

    All I've done is remove the erroneous +4 attack from Spears and Pikes.

    Copy over the EDU in C:.....\EB\sp game edu backup to make it work for your current Campaign NOT the EDU in EB\DATA as the game reads from the backup file.

    EDU zip
    Last edited by Drewski; 07-03-2009 at 14:54.

  4. #4
    Haruhiist Member Zett's Avatar
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    Default AW: Re: light spear balance (vs. swords) in 1.2

    Quote Originally Posted by Drewski View Post
    It is absolutely a bug. The values were adjusted when all the Spear Units were classes as "spear", and received -4 attack vs Infantry. When all the "Spear" units were changed to "Light_Spear", nobody bothered removing the +4 bonus. Hence now, Skirmishers (with a 2nd weapon light_spear) often have a better attack than Medium and even in some cases Heavy Infantry with Axes and Swords.
    What about Hoplites? They have no Phalanx ability, removing their bonus would make them singnificant weaker. The engine can not represent their Hoplite fightingstyle, so they should get a +4 defence instead.

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  5. #5
    A Livonian Rebel Member Slaists's Avatar
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    Default Re: light spear balance (vs. swords) in 1.2

    Quote Originally Posted by Drewski View Post
    This post is quite a coincidence , as I was just about to post a mini mod :)...

    It is absolutely a bug. The values were adjusted when all the Spear Units were classes as "spear", and received -4 attack vs Infantry. When all the "Spear" units were changed to "Light_Spear", nobody bothered removing the +4 bonus. Hence now, Skirmishers (with a 2nd weapon light_spear) often have a better attack than Medium and even in some cases Heavy Infantry with Axes and Swords.

    Its not just the traditional Spearman either. You'll find all the Phalanx Units have attr "Long_Pike AND Light_Spear" and thus have 4 higher attack than they should. This completely unbalances all Phalanx Units, (just check the EDU yourself, you'll find Levy Phalanxes have a better attack than Elite Swordsmen ). Its like they all start out with a Silver Chevron in attack...

    Anyways:-

    Mini Mod To Balance All Spear and Phalanx Units

    All I've done is remove the erroneous +4 attack from Spears and Pikes.

    Copy over the EDU in C:.....\EB\sp game edu backup to make it work for your current Campaign NOT the EDU in EB\DATA as the game reads from the backup file.

    Attachment 60
    Well, my original concern is that this might somehow NOT be a bug. Maybe the EB developers were trying to compensate for the anti-cavalry bonus that the "light spear" units lose (relative to the regular spear ones)...

    as to vs. 'the other infantry': the situation is not that different now as it was when +4 attack was compensating for the attack lost (in my opinion, there should not have been a compensation in the first place; the spear units were supposed to be weaker against sword units): now, +4 attack compensates for -4 lost in defense (light spears vs. other infantry)...

    so, my question still remains: why were they compensating in the first place?

  6. #6

    Default Re: light spear balance (vs. swords) in 1.2

    Quote Originally Posted by Zett View Post
    What about Hoplites? They have no Phalanx ability, removing their bonus would make them singnificant weaker. The engine can not represent their Hoplite fightingstyle, so they should get a +4 defence instead.

    Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam
    Here's a classic Hoplite with EB1.2

    Code:
    ;333
    type             hellenistic infantry hoplitai
    dictionary       hellenistic_infantry_hoplitai      ; Hoplitai
    category         infantry
    class            spearmen
    voice_type       General_1
    soldier          hellenistic_infantry_hoplitai_hellenikoi, 40, 0, 1.22
    officer          ebofficer_hellenic_officer
    officer          ebofficer_hellenic_standardbearer
    mount_effect     elephant -1
    attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest
    formation        0.7, 1, 1.6, 2.4, 4, square
    stat_health      1, 1
    stat_pri         14, 8, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.13
    stat_pri_attr    light_spear
    stat_sec         0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 0 ,0.1
    stat_sec_attr    no
    stat_pri_armour  11, 8, 4, leather
    stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat        3
    stat_ground      0, 0, -2, -3
    stat_mental      12, disciplined, highly_trained
    stat_charge_dist 30
    stat_fire_delay  0
    stat_food        60, 300
    stat_cost        1, 1367, 342, 80, 498, 1367
    Thats a basic 14 attack against anything and 23 Def against other "Spear", 19 Def vs Inf and 31 Def vs Cavalry, and only 1367mnai to recruit, and 342 upkeep. Compare that to any Sword or Axe, and you need an Elite to get anywhere near 14 attack, with twice the upkeep and recruitment cost. So take away the +4 attack vs everything, and you have what is a well balanced low/medium cost allround unit. Good Def, and reasonable attack.
    If you are going to start giving stuff like the Hoplite a better defence, to compensate for the better attack that it shouldn't have had in the first place (and remember this defence would work against everything) , then you'd better make it probably 40-50 % more expensive too, and a higher lvl of MIC to recruit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slaists View Post
    Well, my original concern is that this might somehow NOT be a bug. Maybe the EB developers were trying to compensate for the anti-cavalry bonus that the "light spear" units lose (relative to the regular spear ones)...

    as to vs. 'the other infantry': the situation is not that different now as it was when +4 attack was compensating for the attack lost (in my opinion, there should not have been a compensation in the first place; the spear units were supposed to be weaker against sword units): now, +4 attack compensates for -4 lost in defense (light spears vs. other infantry)...

    so, my question still remains: why were they compensating in the first place?
    #1 light_spear: Gives default bonus of +8 to defense vs cavalry, and penalty of -4 to defense vs. infantry. Offers less pushing power than spear.
    #2 spear: Gives default bonus of +8 to attack vs cavalry, and penalty of -4 to attack vs. infantry. Offers more pushing power than light_spear. Units with "spear" attribute tend to lose cohesion and break lines (due to the extreme pushing power) with undesired results, so use is advised only with cohesive formations/attributes like short_pike, shield_wall, phalanx etc.

    The "Spearmen type" units were apparently all type #2 Spear originally, and +4 attack was added to said unit types. But (see last part under#2) this was found to produce undesirable results , hence they were then all Changed to type #1 Light_spear. BUT this attack was never taken away, for one of two reasons.

    1) They forgot
    2) They decided to leave it in for "balance"???

    1) Means its a bug
    2) It screws up the Infantry/Spear balance completely, so its wrong whatever.

    From the above #1 Light_Spear Still gets +8 Def vs Cavalry, which is a heck of a boost. It doesn't need any phantom extra attack. The extra def means they still should slaughter Cavalry, because they can stay in battle for so much longer without taking casualties.

    Why the heck Creative Arts gave +8 attack to #2Spear vs Cavalry in the first place is beyond me. Spears are not an offensive counter to Horseborne troops, they are a defensive one, i.e to keep the Cavalry off the Infantry's backs. How on earth can men on foot ever chase down men on horseback in an offensive capability? ;)

  7. #7
    Haruhiist Member Zett's Avatar
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    Default AW: Re: light spear balance (vs. swords) in 1.2

    Quote Originally Posted by Slaists View Post
    the spear units were supposed to be weaker against sword units
    Perhaps 1 vs. 1, but a spearunit can hit a swordnuit before it's able to attack. Also in a formation, like the Hoplitephalanx, there are no 1 vs. 1 fights (or should not be). They stand behind their shields and protect each other with shield and spears. I don't think that they would be (in this formation) weaker then swordunits.

    And about the stats, it's right that Hoplites seem to be much better then for example Roman soldiers. But if you use a Hoplite army against a Polybian army you will see that they are balanced. You will notice that Hoplites break much faster then for example Princeps.



    Thats because they have a higher morale. And remember, Hoplites need a level 3 MIC, Principes only a level 2. You could say that their higher costs are for their higher Morale.

    How Slaists already said, it's the question if this is a bug or if it's part of the balance. Would be nice if someone from the EB team could say something to this topic.

    Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

    Edit:



    The KH needs a level 4 MIC to get similare morale (Thorakitai Hoplitai) like the Polybian Principes. The stats of this troops are better then the Princeps, but Thorakitai Hoplitai are some of the 'elite' troops of the KH.
    Last edited by Zett; 03-23-2009 at 14:46.


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  8. #8

    Default Re: AW: Re: light spear balance (vs. swords) in 1.2

    Quote Originally Posted by Zett View Post
    Perhaps 1 vs. 1, but a spearunit can hit a swordnuit before it's able to attack. Also in a formation, like the Hoplitephalanx, there are no 1 vs. 1 fights (or should not be). They stand behind their shields and protect each other with shield and spears. I don't think that they would be (in this formation) weaker then swordunits.

    And about the stats, it's right that Hoplites seem to be much better then for example Roman soldiers. But if you use a Hoplite army against a Polybian army you will see that they are balanced. You will notice that Hoplites break much faster then for example Princeps.



    Thats because they have a higher morale. And remember, Hoplites need a level 3 MIC, Princeps only a level 2. You could say that their higher costs are for their higher Morale.

    How Slaists already said, it's the question if this is a bug or if it's part of the balance. Would be nice if someone from the EB team could say something to this topic.

    Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam
    Nice comparison post, but you as the player can compensate. The morale difference is tiny -seasons, general traits etc. all change the morale more than this. I honestly think (and no offence to you or anyone), that people have got used to fighting easier battles with spear/phalanx heavy unit composition than they should, because they all kill MUCH faster than they should.

    Rome should be more dominant in the game (in the hands of the ai) than they currently are. Most of the time, if you play another faction Rome don't really go anywhere( But I haven't yet seen any significant changes how auto-resolve calculates things, that is ai on ai battles, that would make a huge change to the campaign map).

    The hoplitai was becoming extinct at the time..from the EB unit info list
    The classic Greek hoplite still uses the old Argive shield, spear, short sword and linothorax. Although surpassed by the times they can still be usefull in any battle line.
    They really shouldn't be a killing machine.

  9. #9
    Haruhiist Member Zett's Avatar
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    Default AW: Re: light spear balance (vs. swords) in 1.2

    Quote Originally Posted by Zett View Post

    You could say that their higher costs are for their higher Morale.
    Outdated. Now Princeps (Polybian) cost 1185 mnai and Principes (Camillan) cost 1046 mnai. So they are cheaper then Hoplitai with 1367 mnai (which are now more expensive).

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    Last edited by Zett; 03-23-2009 at 14:48.


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  10. #10
    A Livonian Rebel Member Slaists's Avatar
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    Default Re: AW: Re: light spear balance (vs. swords) in 1.2

    Quote Originally Posted by Zett View Post
    How Slaists already said, it's the question if this is a bug or if it's part of the balance. Would be nice if someone from the EB team could say something to this topic.
    Yup, it would be really nice if any of them responded to this thread. I guess, everyone's busy playing ETW, LOL...

    While I understand the points Drewsky is making I am still not convinced the current attack scheme was not set in place for some balance reasons. Maybe due to same factors that we do not know about.

    For example, Drewsky argues that +4 attack was given to all spear units to compensate for the -4 attack penalty they suffer against other infantry. Well, they were meant to 'suffer' in that department so +4 attack does not seem justified just by the aforementioned penalty.

  11. #11
    Haruhiist Member Zett's Avatar
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    Default AW: light spear balance (vs. swords) in 1.2

    I fought some costume battles against the AI, no outflanking, no great strategies, nearly no battlemanagement, grassland map, medium.

    Koinon Hellenon (7 Hoplitai) vs. Romani (7 Principes Polybian)

    #1 Koinon Hellenon vs. Romani (AI)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    #2 Koinon Hellenon vs. Romani (AI)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    #3 Koinon Hellenon (with guardmode on) vs. Romani (AI)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    #4 Romani vs. Koinon Hellenon (AI)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    #5 Romani vs. Koinon Hellenon (AI)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    #6 Romani (with guardmode on) vs. Koinon Hellenon
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Here are the replay files, put them into your Europabarorum1.2/EB/replays folder.

    Hoplitai (#1,#2,#3) without guardmode had no chance, with guardmode pyric victory.
    Principes (#4, #5, #6) won all 3 battles easely even with guardmode off.

    So my opinion is, that Hoplites are no match (without support) for Principes, that's ok, they are outdated how Drewski already said. But remember, Principes are availabel at MIC level 2, Hoplitai at MIC level 3. Also Principes (Polybian) are with 1185 mnai cheaper then Hoplitai.

    If you make them weaker that would be a problem for KH, who have no better standard line infantery, Thorakitai are even worser as line infantery. Thorakitai Hoplitai are only slightly better (higher morale) then Thorakitai. Whats left are the Epilektoi Hoplitai (high costs) or the Koinon Hellenon Phalangitai (only available after MoT). The KH really depends on these Hoplitai (before the MoT). At the moment they are just weak against Principes, but if you take them their bonuses, they would be even weaker. That's why I say, that they should stay as they are or get something in exchange (defence bonus, lower density).

    As for the Phalangitai, I agree, they are overpowered in EB (my opinion) and should get a weaker attack, their Phalanx ability makes them still a good line infantery.

    I'm not against your change Drewski (the opposite, I really think that the Phalanx units should get a weaker attack too). But as a KH Player I have to say, that Holites already perform weak against swordunits (especially Romani). Of course, a human player still has no problem with that and it's historical correct, but to make Hoplites even weaker as they are now (see the battleresults again) makes no sense for me.

    My

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    Last edited by Zett; 03-23-2009 at 17:05.


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  12. #12

    Exclamation Re: light spear balance (vs. swords) in 1.2

    Quote Originally Posted by Drewski View Post
    Mini Mod To Balance All Spear and Phalanx Units

    All I've done is remove the erroneous +4 attack from Spears and Pikes.

    Copy over the EDU in C:.....\EB\sp game edu backup to make it work for your current Campaign NOT the EDU in EB\DATA as the game reads from the backup file.

    Attachment 60
    As i pointed out in the other thread, that link is down, can you re-up this?
    Vlad is your Impaler.

  13. #13

    Default Re: light spear balance (vs. swords) in 1.2

    Quote Originally Posted by Twigvest View Post
    As i pointed out in the other thread, that link is down, can you re-up this?
    Here you go

    Edited original link too.
    Last edited by Drewski; 07-03-2009 at 14:55.

  14. #14
    Member Member Drapezhnik's Avatar
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    Default Re: light spear balance (vs. swords) in 1.2

    Drewski, after install yuor EDU file NO shield_wall ability and swim ability in Europa Barbarorum with Barbarian Invasion.
    Sorry for my english.

  15. #15

    Default Re: light spear balance (vs. swords) in 1.2

    Quote Originally Posted by Drapezhnik View Post
    Drewski, after install yuor EDU file NO shield_wall ability and swim ability in Europa Barbarorum with Barbarian Invasion.
    Sorry for my english.
    Oh, sorry that happened. Unfortunately, I don't have BI version of RTW myself, so can't really say why you lost those abilities. If you need the original EB EDU file, here it is export_descr_unit.zip

  16. #16
    Haruhiist Member Zett's Avatar
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    Default AW: light spear balance (vs. swords) in 1.2

    Quote Originally Posted by Slaists View Post
    No conclusive response from the development team has been expressed yet though.
    I'm still waiting for some respones from the team. Alternatively we could post it in the bug thread and tease bovi with our question.

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  17. #17

    Default Re: light spear balance (vs. swords) in 1.2

    To clarify, in my campaign the Lusos were reduced to NW Gaul well before this spear mod existed (big empire plus not a lot of playing time means rather slow progress, sadly...). So their presence there doesn't say anything meaningful about balance.

    On the plus side, I noticed just before quitting last night that the Maks have displaced the Getai from their homelands. I find that impressive since the Makedonian armies I see lately are a few Phalangitai Deuteroi, a fair number of those Thracian levy spearmen, and an odd and unpredictable assortment of other troops (akontistai, or thracian peltasts, or lugoae, very rarely a rhomphaiaphoroi will pop up). Unless the AI started spamming rhomps a few turns ago, I find it very surprising that such a force could push the Getai around. Will send spies to see what's going on next time I play.

    Drewski, that Parthia map you posted was what I was thinking of. I find that pretty impressive, both in absolute terms and especially considering their starting position in 272 BCE.

  18. #18

    Default Re: light spear balance (vs. swords) in 1.2

    Quote Originally Posted by jhhowell View Post
    To clarify, in my campaign the Lusos were reduced to NW Gaul well before this spear mod existed (big empire plus not a lot of playing time means rather slow progress, sadly...). So their presence there doesn't say anything meaningful about balance.

    On the plus side, I noticed just before quitting last night that the Maks have displaced the Getai from their homelands. I find that impressive since the Makedonian armies I see lately are a few Phalangitai Deuteroi, a fair number of those Thracian levy spearmen, and an odd and unpredictable assortment of other troops (akontistai, or thracian peltasts, or lugoae, very rarely a rhomphaiaphoroi will pop up). Unless the AI started spamming rhomps a few turns ago, I find it very surprising that such a force could push the Getai around. Will send spies to see what's going on next time I play.

    Drewski, that Parthia map you posted was what I was thinking of. I find that pretty impressive, both in absolute terms and especially considering their starting position in 272 BCE.
    On your first point, I've played enough campaigns to know that the RNG holds more sway over the campaign map, than any little tweaks I (or anyone else) can add...e.g. play 5 campaigns as Casse, where u dont really influence anything for 30 yrs or so ...and sometimes The Arverni rule France and The Lowlands, sometimes The Aeudil, sometimes the Sweboz, sometimes even The Romans.., most of the time, they are all still slugging it out..

    Its MOSTLY down to the great RNG.

    Second point, yep that really is quite an impressive Parthian map. Point one, Id just got my Northern Getai army completely Nuked by Samartian HA and was very pissed off, Point 2a, don't EVER code ANYTHING when u are pissed off ;)

    Point 3, in the cold Light of Wednesday, I still reckon the whole steppe factions need a little rebalance--HA secondary attack is equal to Princepes primary (with MIC taken into consideration), for friks sake ...

  19. #19

    Default Re: light spear balance (vs. swords) in 1.2

    Re: KH

    @Zett in particular.

    Playing a massive campaign as KH at the moment (with Spear changes). I have to agree that KH probably suffer the most. But I'm absolutely loving it. The KH get SO many other bonuses that say the Romans don't. Almost anywhere you conquer early on, has a least one mid level barracks you can instantly recruit from. And what a wonderful myriad of troops to choose from. Plus, you can get "super lance cavalry", which are the real killers, almost anywhere (with a lvl 2 home MIC), with a MUCH lower MIC than other factions' elite troops( and yes in my view they are extremly elite).

    My plan (which worked nicely), was to run up through Makedonia, and into Tylis, making Tylis my sole LVL 4 Gov, and growing it as fast as possible. In 25 yrs from the start of game, I am churning out Elite Thracians every turn. 3 per 20 stack, and 3 Noble Cav, plus a good mix of heavy/light hoplites make an awesome army. I even started adding a 30 mnai stome thrower to each army. Yes that's incredibly expensive, but as the KH, you get so rich so fast, you can afford it, and it's so much more fun than the boring old Romani ;)

    And then there's Syracusian hoplites, distinguished hoplites (both veritable tanks), and of course, home grown non merc Kretian Archers, and Rhodsian Slingers. What more could a leader want? Yes it's pretty hard in the early days (isn't it for most factions?), with 8 or 9 attack Levy Hoplites, but that's when your Generals earn their mettle. I haven't had a General actually fight in a battle for many a year now.

    Took Dalminion and Syracuse, sat there for 15 yrs with mutual Romani borders (some kinda record) without them attacking, and when they finally did, it was with a 20 stack, almost all Pedites Extras, with a few cavalry plus 8 star general. I thought (gulp), here's the test, my Dalminion Army of mostly hoplites, a few illyrian spears, some Rhodes slingers, Kretan Archers, requistite Elite Thracian, wing Galatians Shordswords and lance cavalry absolutely massacred them. And the full stack right behind it.;)

    My new favorite faction to be sure :)

    Back on the post topic, giving all these guys 4 attack back, would make it so easy as to be almost pointless fighting..........

  20. #20
    Haruhiist Member Zett's Avatar
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    Default AW: Re: light spear balance (vs. swords) in 1.2

    Quote Originally Posted by Drewski View Post
    Re: KH

    @Zett in particular.
    Plus, you can get "super lance cavalry", which are the real killers, almost anywhere (with a lvl 2 home MIC)
    Level 3 MIC if you mean these guys

    Hippeis Xystophoroi (Greek Noble Cavalry)

    After I thought a while about the +4 attack bonus I have to agree, that it is not necessary for KH. Nice to hear, that you like KH.

    There is a additional point that speaks for KH, they have only one unit (if you leave the artillery out) that requires a level 5 MIC, Spartiatai Hoplitai (only recruitable in Sparte). All other "elite" units (Thorakitai, Thorakitai Hopitai, Epilektoi Hoplitai, Koinon Hellenon Phalangitai) only need a level 4 MIC.

    And back to the Hippeis Xystophoroi, if you compare them with their counterparts, they are mostly slightly inferior, but you can recruit them (how you already said) nearly everywhere and you only need a level 3 MIC.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    From up to down: Hippies Xystophoroi (KH), Hippies Thessalikoi (Makedonia, Epeiros and KH), Agema Klerouchikon Hippeon (Ptolemaioi), Eqvites Extraordinarii (Romani), Hetairoi, Molosson Agema (Epeiros)


    Area of Recruitment


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    My Greek Nobles:
    from satalexton, his name is Plato
    from satalexton, his name is Sōkrátēs
    from satalexton, his nam is Aristotélēs

  21. #21

    Default Re: AW: Re: light spear balance (vs. swords) in 1.2

    Quote Originally Posted by Zett View Post
    Level 3 MIC if you mean these guys

    Hippeis Xystophoroi (Greek Noble Cavalry)

    After I thought a while about the +4 attack bonus I have to agree, that it is not necessary for KH. Nice to hear, that you like KH.

    There is a additional point that speaks for KH, they have only one unit (if you leave the artillery out) that requires a level 5 MIC, Spartiatai Hoplitai (only recruitable in Sparte). All other "elite" units (Thorakitai, Thorakitai Hopitai, Epilektoi Hoplitai, Koinon Hellenon Phalangitai) only need a level 4 MIC.

    And back to the Hippeis Xystophoroi, if you compare them with their counterparts, they are mostly slightly inferior, but you can recruit them (how you already said) nearly everywhere and you only need a level 3 MIC.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    From up to down: Hippies Xystophoroi (KH), Hippies Thessalikoi (Makedonia, Epeiros and KH), Agema Klerouchikon Hippeon (Ptolemaioi), Eqvites Extraordinarii (Romani), Hetairoi, Molosson Agema (Epeiros)


    Area of Recruitment


    Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam
    Didn't notice it was only a Lvl 3 GVT to recruit Xyst's ...excellent news !

    I checked the files to make sure I had the right province to recruit Elite Thracians (as in Tylis), but I've put a self imposed ban on checking recruitment viewer and code for a while, it's good to get surprises still

    Btw, excuse my mix of modern and ancient names for places and units, its part how I best remember them, and part lazyness ;).........now if only my PC would finish defragging my hard drive...I've been waiting almost 4 HOURS NOW and want to get back to the campaign....

  22. #22

    Default Re: AW: light spear balance (vs. swords) in 1.2

    Im really not sure about this. Looking at it some levy greek hoplites have better attack and defence than some mercenary Galatian shortswordsmen which doesnt seem quite right. Im just on the fence about nerfing spearmen unless they were really intended to have this nerf. I dont want them to become too ineffective, but I want that elite groop of swordsman in good armour to be better than my levy phalanx in actual battle skill if they get past the spearwall

  23. #23

    Default Re: AW: light spear balance (vs. swords) in 1.2

    Quote Originally Posted by ninja51 View Post
    Im really not sure about this. Looking at it some levy greek hoplites have better attack and defence than some mercenary Galatian shortswordsmen which doesnt seem quite right. Im just on the fence about nerfing spearmen unless they were really intended to have this nerf. I dont want them to become too ineffective, but I want that elite groop of swordsman in good armour to be better than my levy phalanx in actual battle skill if they get past the spearwall
    I'd argue it's shortswordmen in general which should be buffed, rather than spearmen nerfed. Most longsword infantry will do very well against spearmen.

  24. #24

    Default Re: AW: light spear balance (vs. swords) in 1.2

    Quote Originally Posted by ninja51 View Post
    I dont want them to become too ineffective, but I want that elite groop of swordsman in good armour to be better than my levy phalanx in actual battle skill if they get past the spearwall
    I agree absolutely, and that makes me wonder: should spearmen get a bonus, even against cavalry, after the charge, once battle is joined and more or less a stationary affair?

  25. #25

    Default Re: AW: light spear balance (vs. swords) in 1.2

    Im just looking for someone to say yes or no about this. Are spear units incorrectly too powerfull? I dont want them to be unnecissarily too weak but I do want swordsmen to be actual contenders not the bums that they are. I suppose it doesnt matter though, threads a year old the files uploaded are gone, and I doubt ill get a real answer
    Last edited by ninja51; 04-29-2011 at 02:07.

  26. #26

    Default Re: AW: light spear balance (vs. swords) in 1.2

    I, too, reduced the attack value of all spearmen ( -4 ).
    From all the games i´ve played since then i can say the following:
    - The Phalangitai units aren´t really concerned, except their ability to fight AI FM, which are rediculously strong anyway ( last time a FM of Epirotes just cut his way through my Deuteroi phalanx, routing 2 units with a little support from Thureophoroi ).
    - The Hoplitai Haploi perform now as they should, imo; but the Classical Hoplites suck a lot against sword infantry, especially against "ap" units. I think, one should give them at least 2 attack back ( though, they are still quite cool against horsemen ). On the other hand i use BI.exe and therefore "shieldwall" - if you do, let them as they are, because otherwise they are simply unbreakable/unstopable.
    - I haven´t tried the elite units like Agema Ordeton etc. - but since this guys are quite tought anyway, and they can make shieldwall, too, they might be ok.
    - Ippikrates Hoplites are normaly underpowered, so to compensate the loss of attack value, and also to make them usefull, i´ve improved their stamina to "very hardy" - now they are quite ok.

    That would be all for now, i´ll post some more observations when i have something usefull to say again.
    - 10 mov. points :P

  27. #27

    Default Re: light spear balance (vs. swords) in 1.2

    hi, ive tried downloading this file but everytime i go to unpack it, it says file is corrupt and is empty??? any ideas??

  28. #28
    Member Member Aurgelmir's Avatar
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    Default Re: light spear balance (vs. swords) in 1.2

    I playing now for e few weeks with Drewsky´s EDU,and i think that the balance is just right now..
    And the AI balance is the same as it was before.The romans are still slowly,even now that they have an advantage.

    Drewsky did you cahange the HA stats?

  29. #29

    Default Re: light spear balance (vs. swords) in 1.2

    Quote Originally Posted by jamee View Post
    hi, ive tried downloading this file but everytime i go to unpack it, it says file is corrupt and is empty??? any ideas??
    I just downloaded the file from this thread, and it unzipped fine. Sorry don't know what happened for you if you keep getting the same error.

    Here's the same file again, maybe try downloading this one export_descr_unit.zip

    Quote Originally Posted by Aurgelmir View Post
    I playing now for e few weeks with Drewsky´s EDU,and i think that the balance is just right now..
    And the AI balance is the same as it was before.The romans are still slowly,even now that they have an advantage.

    Drewsky did you cahange the HA stats?
    Glad you like it :) Now I've had plenty of time to try out various nations with it (Rome, KH, Epiros, Casse, Getai), I too think the battles really are balanced properly now. No problems here either with ai expansion patterns, I don't think the changes make that much of a difference, to the way ai auto-resolve battles are calculated.

    NO the file in this thread DOES NOT change Horse Archer stats at all. (just to clarify). I'm still personally tinkering a little with those in my own games.

  30. #30
    is on the outside looking out Member PraetorFigus's Avatar
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    Default Re: light spear balance (vs. swords) in 1.2

    I have also done some tinkering with the edu.

    I gave all light_spear units an attack of 11, the result has been surprisingly no spamming of low end levees with more elites in armies. against aedui and arverni as romani I was fighting more gaesatae then expected, Epeiros have phalangites with lots of chevrons very tough to face triarii and principes are no longer that superior then other units, and hastatii are actually more useful making battles far more interesting for and against romani.

    I currently have a Seleukid campaign where I am not steamrolling into Egypt against Ptolies with Pezhetairoi and ranged support. it's been back and forth for a while, and I'm looking forward to fighting other factions besides Pahlava whose bodyguard are now very very tough in melee.

    One thing I like with the 11 attack is that cavalry now do not die like flies when the AI tries to out flank me and have been more successful causing mass routs instead of getting chopped up and getting routed with the rest of the AI army wavering, so a little less micro managing for the player also.

    But I'm not entirely clear on the benefits of some of the other changes you have made compared to vanilla EB, I've also gotten bogged down with the lower radius for units in terms of assigning appropriate values without turning units into tanks. but one thing for sure, with the 11 attack there does not seem any away to fight battles with time limits, battles run much longer.

    how are the battles with your changes? what else can you share with your observations from your changes? I certainly like were these changes are going while we wait for EBII!

    also, I want to eventually incorporate the lower radius but with RL don't have enough time to test and tinker
    "One often meets his destiny on the road he takes to avoid it." Oogway, Kung Fu Panda

    "Mortui Tantum Terminem Belli Viderunt" (Only the dead have seen the end of war)
    a technical memory solution

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