light spear balance (vs. swords) in 1.2

[mosedavid]

hi, downloaded your file.................... makes since to me (!) but i got an error....i didnt write it down but it said 'couldnt find' some bit.. i'm using RTW era's edition. I'm assuming you made an error somewhere.

... i'll write it down later if you want but was mid flow so didnt want to have to start the campaign again

[Drewski]

hi, downloaded your file.................... makes since to me (!) but i got an error....i didnt write it down but it said 'couldnt find' some bit.. i'm using RTW era's edition. I'm assuming you made an error somewhere.

... i'll write it down later if you want but was mid flow so didnt want to have to start the campaign again

I'm sorry, I don't completely understand you (if you meant the file I adjusted)...can you restate your error and the problem you are having?.

Thanks.

[Drewski]

Anyone tried the Spears/Pikes fix? And if so, what have your impressions been?

Thanks.

[Ravenfeeder]

Haven't tried it yet. Is it save game compatible? How does this affect autoresolve?

[Zett]

Haven't tried it yet. Is it save game compatible? How does this affect autoresolve?

EDU (export_descr_unit) changes are savegame compatible.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

[Revenant]

Anyone tried the Spears/Pikes fix? And if so, what have your impressions been?

Thanks.

I did.

Currently, I am playing as KH, so I am in the middle of it:)

So far the majority of my opponents, namely Macedonia, Pontos and AS are using mainly spear units too, so no much power shift here.

At the beginning, the strong unit are peltasts, because they are sword unit. They work like "baby legionnaries". Interesting are also Iphikratean Hoplites, because they have secondary sword and they have a bit better defence than peltasts.

But the most excellent unit are of course Thorakitai hoplitai. Not only they have decent stats and affordable upkeep/price, but they have armour piercing sword as their secondary weapon. Nice versatile unit with spear/ap sword combo.

Traditional infantry types like Hopliatai and even Epilektoi Hoplitai pale before mentioned units. But I used family members units (spartiates and Epilektoi BG) a lot and they performed well.

The same is with Thorakitai and maybe Thurephoroi, but i did not try any of the latter yet.

So the conclusion is, KH has units that can stand toe to toe against sword infantry, but it differs to unmodded version of EB, whre classical hoplitai were one of the most useful units.

Thats probably because opponents are using a lot of infantry here, if they were using cavalry instead, it would be another story.

Lately I tried Thorakitai Hoplitai vs. Hypaspists in SP to test them and they butchered macedonian elites with no mercy. The same case would probably be with even such units as roman principes or maybe even legionnaries, ap sword is really killer vs. well armoured infantry.

The conclusion is I like it. The only drawback is that AI probably do not use secondary weapons, so some units will be probably too weak when used by it. True, as somebody posted here before, KH should be a weak faction anyways.

Rev

[Zett]

The same case would probably be with even such units as roman principes or maybe even legionnaries, ap sword is really killer vs. well armoured infantry.

After all the Thorakitai Hoplitai are elites and you need a level 4 MIC to recruit them. Princeps are only medium infantery (available at level 2 MIC).

The Mod as far as I know didn't change the Thorakitai Hoplitai (ecxept removing the +4 attack bonus for spear attack). So the sword attack is the same as in vanilla EB.
If you fight against other Roman elites (such as Pedites Extraordinarii) you will see, that the Thorakitai Hoplitai are still a 'weak' elite unit.

The only drawback is that AI probably do not use secondary weapons, so some units will be probably too weak when used by it.

AFAIK if a soldier gets knocked down he will switch to his secondary weapon automaticly. So the Thorakitai Hoplitai would fight with swords (not all, but some of them).


Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

[Drewski]

Well I've tried a couple of major campaigns myself. First as Casse (who are just riduculously easy to play imo--take the British Isles at your leisure, then start mopping up Celts who have kindly weakened themselves/the slave settlements). Its surprising, how many Spear units are involved in Casse/Celt battles, but I liked how upper lvl sword units actually stood out from the pack a little (as they should), instead of taking heavy losses vs some levy spearmen.

Currently playing a Getai campaign (and jeez, are they hard to get going, and even to keep going). You're 4000 mnai in debt before you even reach a settlement to take! Anyways, persevered with it, and now have around 10 provinces, and of course I've been backstabbed by all three "Greek" nations on the peninsula. I can only afford two 3/4 stacks, and they are pretty banged up, just won 3 heroic victories with one army, all on the ai's turn.

The last couple of battles, against decent ai armies, really proved a point to me, that the ai is sometimes worse than clueless. It had a decent Cavalry/phalanx/hoplite/skirmisher mix and if it had just attacked even in a straight line, I would have been pretty screwed. But no, it lost a third of its men trying these crazy premature flanking attacks, e.g. the troops walk straight forward (quite missile proof) the turn sideways within never mind archer range, but javelin range. This results in most of the "flankers" dying before even getting to the flanks. Then it tries to charge its Cavalry at troops who aren't engaged in melee, which while getting a decent kill score from the charge, then results in their quick demise. Would it have been to difficult to code in to the ai "charge then back up, then charge again", and "hold the charge until your melee guys are engaged"? Especially if you have much superior numbers. Ho hum.

(Apologies for rant)

Did quite a bit of messing around with all the Steppe factions too (in my own game). Some of those generals/horse units have frankly ridiculous armor, so I toned them all down quite a bit. Also lowered the missile attack for most horse archers (a touch)..no-one in the world will ever convince me, that guys on horses with bows, are more accurate than guys with the same bows on foot. Its pure nonesense, but EB has that in it. And we all know that Horse Archer only armies are basically illegal ;).....don't remember any Steppe faction cutting a swathe across the world either....well not until around 1500 yrs later ;)

[jhhowell]

I've been using this minimod - thanks for doing the EDU edit and posting it! Can't really tell the difference, honestly, other than seeing more sensible attack numbers on the unit cards of hoplitai, etc. Late stage Romani, 150s BCE. Long standing low intensity war against the Lusotannan in western Gaul (Lusos now hold Brittany, Normandy, and the central province south of Normandy and east of Lemorisae - apologies for the weird mix of modern and EB names, that's how my memory works...). Since the Luso armies now consist entirely of Lugoae, some sort of Celtic shortswordsmen, and the usual Celtic slingers and archers, they get stomped regardless of the spear fix. Especially since they're usually attacking a bridge.

The Fourth Macedonian War was also not obviously affected by the mod, for similar reasons (I picked up Mytilene, Byzantion, Tylis, and Serdike, leaving them with the northernmost Thracian provinces). Maybe without the mod a hoplitai plus phalangitai deuteroi would have defeated a cohors reformata on the walls before a second cohort cut through to the other side of the phalangitai. But maybe not, and there were plenty more cohorts where those came from so the city was going to fall regardless.

Just started the First Mithridatic War (really, the Pontic king happens to be Mithridates Somebody-or-other! ), as might be guessed from acquiring Mytilene and Byzantion. Gotta love the campaign "AI"... Again, no obvious effects. Facing the front of a phalanx even in guard mode still costs men quickly even with the -4 from this mod. The other Pontic spearmen I've seen have been levies - in fact I can't think of any quality non-phalanx spearmen in their roster other than hoplitai. And cohors reformata ate hoplitai for lunch even without the -4 to the latter.

Probably the only way I'll see any difference in this campaign would be in fights against the Ptolemaioi. If I play that far, which is by no means certain (starting to grow bored, and hearing Baktria calling to me... ).

Steppe factions/HA: a steppe faction did cut a swathe across the world - Parthia. And I believe they really did have ridiculous armor... I know much less about them, but I gather the Saka also kicked serious butt in this period. Do horse archers have higher ranged attacks than the archers with the same bows (Scythian foot archers vs. Scythian horse archers, say)? I don't recall for certain from my Hai campaign back in 1.0, but I thought they had the same attack (5 or 6, can't recall which).

[Zett]

Did quite a bit of messing around with all the Steppe factions too (in my own game). Some of those generals/horse units have frankly ridiculous armor, so I toned them all down quite a bit. Also lowered the missile attack for most horse archers (a touch)..no-one in the world will ever convince me, that guys on horses with bows, are more accurate than guys with the same bows on foot. Its pure nonesense, but EB has that in it. And we all know that Horse Archer only armies are basically illegal ;).....don't remember any Steppe faction cutting a swathe across the world either....well not until around 1500 yrs later ;)

I agree, but all steppe lovers will kill you for that. You better take a fast horse and keep yourself hidden in Britain or something thats far away from the steppes.

In my experience, the Romani infantry is a bit stronger than they "should be", if you look at their price and MIC from where they are available. I understand that its because of limitation of their recruitment zone and also because they really were tough as nails.

IMO Romans are with and without Drewski mod overpowered. But in vanilla EB it was in a way that was still ok. My main concern was, that this mod would make all sword factions (like Romani and the Celts) unbalanced. But was I heard so far, was that the balance is still ok. I mean, if the Lusotannan (a spear faction) are still able to take Gaul (sword and spear) then there is no problem for me (concerning the spear/sword balance, balance in general...we need a second spainfaction to balance the beige death).

It just surprised me, how they wiped floor with Hypaspists... Probably because of spear modification (-4 att for Hypaspists and they sadly have spear as primary weapon)

That's interesting. Hypaspistai have sword as primary weapon and spear as secondary, Thorakitai Hoplitai have spear as primary and sword as secondary. And still they beat up Hypaspistai? Would be nice if someone could make some costume battle tests with Hypaspistai and Thorakitai Hoplitai.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

[Revenant]

After all the Thorakitai Hoplitai are elites and you need a level 4 MIC to recruit them. Princeps are only medium infantery (available at level 2 MIC).

The Mod as far as I know didn't change the Thorakitai Hoplitai (ecxept removing the +4 attack bonus for spear attack). So the sword attack is the same as in vanilla EB.
If you fight against other Roman elites (such as Pedites Extraordinarii) you will see, that the Thorakitai Hoplitai are still a 'weak' elite unit.


Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

In my experience, the Roman infantry is a bit stronger than they "should be", if you look at their price and MIC from where they are available. I understand that its because of limitation of their recruitment zone and also because they really were tough as nails.

My mentioning of Thorakitai Hoplitai was because of concern if Koinon has some solid line unit, I know the attack of sword was not changed. And they are good, not very expensive and versatile (spear + ap sword). That they cannot be compared to such units as Pedites is obvious

It just surprised me, how they wiped floor with Hypaspists... Probably because of spear modification (-4 att for Hypaspists and they sadly have spear as primary weapon)

Rev