Horse archers : oh, come on...

Originally Posted by Ordani

This may not be HA related, as it's true of (almost?) all other units without certain tech upgrades. I've watched multiple units of dragoons and light infantry get hung up on various bits of terrain and take 30-40 seconds to get one or two men sorted out before they started firing despite the other 118 being in rank.

Does anything operate in the "fire while running" fashion anymore?

I realize that, however for me it most often happens to cavalry running around. And it makes sense : if one guy in a marching line battalion gets separated from the pack, he can race and catch up. But a straggler can't run up to an already running unit.

Also, horses really, really have trouble with walls if they don't happen onto them at a perfect 90° angle, and when I'm micro-ing 3 or 4 units of HAs at a time and trying to anticipate the instant the AI unit will volley to move them back just before that, I don't have much time to babysit each...

And Mystiqblackcat, I realize muskets aren't as precise as bows, but I'm not asking for mounted snipers. They can be as inaccurate as blind mice if they want, as long as they fire on the damn move !

I just think if your going to include a unit type in the game, you need to do the research and model the way that unit works on how they actually worked in real life. If you not prepared to do that and make the model unit work the way it should work then you really have no business producing a game based on real history. Go off and make a fantasy game or something, and leave this market to people who care.

That's a little harsh isn't it? I rather have ETW than not and getting all bent out of shape over no move shoot on HA is kinda silly. Its understandable if not disappointing that they didn't bother implementing move fire for like 2-3 units.

I think dragoons are quite realistic in many ways. If you don't think so, try reloading your muskets ontop of a horse and getting shot at. It is far more difficult than if you are on foot.

The reason Dragoons went out of favour is exactly that, the line infantry are far superior in terms of firepower and damage and with the advent of the machine gun, they became very expensive cannon fodder.

Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

That's a little harsh isn't it? I rather have ETW than not and getting all bent out of shape over no move shoot on HA is kinda silly. Its understandable if not disappointing that they didn't bother implementing move fire for like 2-3 units.

Perhaps, but it true nevertheless.

There is no requirement on Creative Assembly to produce a game based on real world history. They could just go to town with something like Command and Conquer Red Alert. Instead they chose deliberately to target a market with people like me in it, who have an interest in military history and thus will buy their game simply because its based on actual historical facts.

Having targetted a market that is looking for authenticity, it seems only reasonable to expect that designers bother to do some research and actually produce what they promise. Had ETW featured Orc's and Goblins I might still have bought it, but would really be annoyed if the goblins couldn't fire from the back of their wolves, but the fact is horse archers could and did fire whilst moving. I actually have video footage should how it was done and exactly how accurate it was.

Incidently, just for the record I consider the same rules apply to film makers, and TV producers. Basically, if you can't be bothered to get it right then just don't bother in the first place, would be my message

Originally posted by Didz
Perhaps, but it true nevertheless.

There is no requirement on Creative Assembly to produce a game based on real world history. They could just go to town with something like Command and Conquer Red Alert. Instead they chose deliberately to target a market with people like me in it, who have an interest in military history and thus will buy their game simply because its based on actual historical facts.

Having targetted a market that is looking for authenticity, it seems only reasonable to expect that designers bother to do some research and actually produce what they promise. Had ETW featured Orc's and Goblins I might still have bought it, but would really be annoyed if the goblins couldn't fire from the back of their wolves, but the fact is horse archers could and did fire whilst moving. I actually have video footage should how it was done and exactly how accurate it was.

Incidently, just for the record I consider the same rules apply to film makers, and TV producers. Basically, if you can't be bothered to get it right then just don't bother in the first place, would be my message

From the point of view of the history *buff*, you are exactly right. But its not a secret that TW games arent hardcore games in any of the fields they touch. They are not hardcore wargames, not hardcore historical simulations and not fully mainstream pc games although they are partly all of those. From the point of view of CA its hardly worth it to fully satisfy a part of the fanbase at the cost of not satisfying the others and i dont think that anyone has a right to blame them for their approach. On the other hand fans of one or the other element will always bother to post blaming them, which in a way goes to show how much they are addicted to the game.

Originally Posted by gollum

From the point of view of the history *buff*, you are exactly right. But its not a secret that TW games arent hardcore games in any of the fields they touch. They are not hardcore wargames, not hardcore historical simulations and not fully mainstream pc games although they are partly all of those. From the point of view of CA its hardly worth it to fully satisfy a part of the fanbase at the cost of not satisfying the others and i dont think that anyone has a right to blame them for their approach. On the other hand fans of one or the other element will always bother to post blaming them, which in a way goes to show how much they are addicted to the game.

True and I still watch 'Sharpe' even though its a load of rubbish. But if you are going to produce something deliberately for sale to people with an interest in history, you better expect to get criticsed when you get it wrong.

One could argue that the role and effectiveness of horse archers is about right even if the implementation is inaccurate - i.e. horse archers by this point have been rendered obsolete by gunpowder weapons. It would be far worse if the game were filled with horse archers wheeling around in circles with line infantry unable to hit them, rendering them overpowered.

It's a little unfair to argue horse archers being unable to fire when moving is down to a lack of research on CA's part, since they have had this ability in previous games; I suspect it has more to do with not wanting to spend too much time making essentially cosmetic changes to what is at best a niche unit and at worst an obsolete curiosity by this stage.

Originally posted by Didz
But if you are going to produce something deliberately for sale to people with an interest in history, you better expect to get criticsed when you get it wrong.

I am sure that counting the sales money of ETW prepares one well for criticism.

Originally Posted by PBI

One could argue that the role and effectiveness of horse archers is about right even if the implementation is inaccurate - i.e. horse archers by this point have been rendered obsolete by gunpowder weapons. It would be far worse if the game were filled with horse archers wheeling around in circles with line infantry unable to hit them, rendering them overpowered.

It's a little unfair to argue horse archers being unable to fire when moving is down to a lack of research on CA's part, since they have had this ability in previous games; I suspect it has more to do with not wanting to spend too much time making essentially cosmetic changes to what is at best a niche unit and at worst an obsolete curiosity by this stage.

Maybe, but it begs the question as to why bother putting them in the first place?

It feels like the balance and implementation of units in ETW is worse than it was in MTW2. Now obviously I'm talking about MTW2:Kingdoms with a multitude of patches, but ETW just doesn't feel anywhere near as polished.

I hope that the vaunted series of planned updates will address the many niggles and annoyances currently experienced. I can't even list the number of work arounds I've had to come up with to deal with buggy AI and unit "features".

Pain in the ass. I'll not even mention the North American Indian armies.

Playing as Martha, those Camel gunners are quite nice units... except they won't reload unless there's an enemy in range. Rather defeats the whole purpose of shoot and scoot, which is all they can do. They are plain useless most of the time, except that their range sometimes allows them to shoot out garrisoned troops.

Originally Posted by Didz

Had ETW featured Orc's and Goblins I might still have bought it, but would really be annoyed if the goblins couldn't fire from the back of their wolves, but the fact is horse archers could and did fire whilst moving. I actually have video footage should how it was done and exactly how accurate it was.

I have it on good authority that, historically, Goblins didnt really ride wolves but preferred bad tempered poodles instead. With video footage as well.

Originally Posted by Didz

Instead they chose deliberately to target a market with people like me in it

That was their first mistake.

Most of the time my ranged cavalry are set to skirmish and do a nice job of luring one wing of the enemy to the other edge of the map (where they get slaughtered unless I remember to move them).

Sorry mispost.

Originally Posted by Kobal2fr

I realize that, however for me it most often happens to cavalry running around. And it makes sense : if one guy in a marching line battalion gets separated from the pack, he can race and catch up. But a straggler can't run up to an already running unit.

Also, horses really, really have trouble with walls if they don't happen onto them at a perfect 90° angle, and when I'm micro-ing 3 or 4 units of HAs at a time and trying to anticipate the instant the AI unit will volley to move them back just before that, I don't have much time to babysit each...

And Mystiqblackcat, I realize muskets aren't as precise as bows, but I'm not asking for mounted snipers. They can be as inaccurate as blind mice if they want, as long as they fire on the damn move !

I want to apologize ahead of time if I sound condescending, I do not mean to if I am. A buddy of mine said I was coming off that way and I really just trying to be helpful.

I understand your frustrations, I really do. I am just a very patient person so I over look the pathing problems. I am still looking for new ways to use them effectively. Recently I fought a large action as post revolution France against the Dutch I believe. In any case I used two squads of Carabineers to ride around to the side of the Dutch line who outnumbered me ~1000 to ~750 after battle was joined and had them let loose a couple volleys on their left which helped it to rout allowing me to roll up my right and subsequently helped me win the engagement. The Dutch did send a reserve regiment of foot toward my Light Dragoons but they easily outpaced them and drew them away from the main battle.

Try using them purely as flankers. They aren't good skirmishers because they reload slow and don't have alot of range like light infantry. Use them to attack from unsuspecting angles or to harass lone enemy units. They are great for killing enemy Generals, just ride around to the rear, form up and let loose a few volleys until the bodygaurd starts to move, then retreat and try again after they have reloaded.

Firing a musket while riding a horse would seem to be pretty difficult, and reloading would be impossible. To be fair, I've never fired a musket but I have used a modern black powder rifle which would be easier to fire and reload than an 18th century musket on a moving horse and it still seems like an impossible task. Plus accuracy would greatly suffer if firing on the move, so much so that all you would get for your trouble was alot of noise and smoke but nothing terribly dangerous.

Originally Posted by Mystiqblackcat

They are great for killing enemy Generals, just ride around to the rear, form up and let loose a few volleys until the bodygaurd starts to move, then retreat and try again after they have reloaded.

There's the rub. I can't get Light Dragoons, Camel Gunners, and the like to reload on horseback for love or money. They absolutely refuse to reload unless there is an enemy in range and they are either ordered to shoot at them or have fire at will turned on.

Originally Posted by Feanaro

There's the rub. I can't get Light Dragoons, Camel Gunners, and the like to reload on horseback for love or money. They absolutely refuse to reload unless there is an enemy in range and they are either ordered to shoot at them or have fire at will turned on.

I haven't tested it out to check it but that is an annoying bug. I understand not reloading when on the move, but they definitely should reload if they are standing around idly.

I'll have to test the mounted reload thing, however, I know for a fact that my Ottoman infantry skirmishers reload when idle because I used that trait to good effect to massacre a whole Cossack regiment using 'shoot and scoot' tactic's. A lot of micro-management that should have been done automatically by the skirmish button but nevertheless it did work.

Originally Posted by Didz

I'll have to test the mounted reload thing, however, I know for a fact that my Ottoman infantry skirmishers reload when idle because I used that trait to good effect to massacre a whole Cossack regiment using 'shoot and scoot' tactic's. A lot of micro-management that should have been done automatically by the skirmish button but nevertheless it did work.

I have no issues with foot skirmishers. It's just mounted troops with muskets. It's especially frustrating with units like Camel Gunners, who have a reload skill of FIVE. Unless the enemy sits still, they are basically one shot ponies... errr, camels.

Does anyone else think the mounted reloading animation looks funny for carbineless units because more often than not they are rubbing their guns quite vigorously?

Originally Posted by Mystiqblackcat

Try using them purely as flankers. They aren't good skirmishers because they reload slow and don't have alot of range like light infantry. Use them to attack from unsuspecting angles or to harass lone enemy units. They are great for killing enemy Generals, just ride around to the rear, form up and let loose a few volleys until the bodygaurd starts to move, then retreat and try again after they have reloaded.

Yeah, that's what I've started doing, and it does work better than using them like in the previous games, as a sort of pre-battle skirmish. This time around, this tactic doesn't work and you really have to wait until the battle proper has begun and both lines are merrily shooting each other at point blank to send the HAs around. Pity. Not sure they're pulling their weight in upkeep that way, but then again as the Russians your line infantry has the properties of a vacuum, so they need all the help they can get

Plus accuracy would greatly suffer if firing on the move, so much so that all you would get for your trouble was alot of noise and smoke but nothing terribly dangerous.

Which is all I'd ask for, really. Unless you use a whole lot of them (something I simply can't do, I get overwhelmed trying to get all of them out of harm's way), HAs aren't killers, but their mere presence round the back and the woosh woosh of arrows (or, as the case may be, bullets) coming from the back does wonders on enemy morale.
What I hoped for (and was used to) was a quick run up to them, volley, then split up and move to the flanks in a Y, running like hell at the first sign of serious trouble or, god forbid, if archers stop moving. That way, their foot troops entered the fray with lower morale and maybe even tired already if they foolishly tried to run after the horsemen.

This doesn't work in Empire. At all.