Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 49

Thread: v 1.2 Macedonian Peltastai (Elite): assault role must be a joke, right?

  1. #1
    A Livonian Rebel Member Slaists's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    1,828

    Default v 1.2 Macedonian Peltastai (Elite): assault role must be a joke, right?

    The description of these suggests they excel at killing opponents on city walls with their javelins. That must be a joke... At best, they are able to get a couple kills by throwing javelins up onto the walls (from a close range), missing most. I think, the game mechanics simply does not allow to use missiles for such a role.

  2. #2

    Default Re: v 1.2 Macedonian Peltastai (Elite): assault role must be a joke, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slaists View Post
    The description of these suggests they excel at killing opponents on city walls with their javelins. That must be a joke... At best, they are able to get a couple kills by throwing javelins up onto the walls (from a close range), missing most. I think, the game mechanics simply does not allow to use missiles for such a role.
    Quote Originally Posted by export_units.txt; line 2619
    They excel in assault where their javelins can scatter defenders from breaches in defenses made by your siege engines.
    (Emphasis added.)

    So far I don't see any proposition of them throwing anything up, or onto anything else?
    - Tellos Athenaios
    CUF tool - XIDX - PACK tool - SD tool - EVT tool - EB Install Guide - How to track down loading CTD's - EB 1.1 Maps thread


    ὁ δ᾽ ἠλίθιος ὣσπερ πρόβατον βῆ βῆ λέγων βαδίζει” – Kratinos in Dionysalexandros.

  3. #3
    A Livonian Rebel Member Slaists's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    1,828

    Default Re: v 1.2 Macedonian Peltastai (Elite): assault role must be a joke, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios View Post
    (Emphasis added.)

    So far I don't see any proposition of them throwing anything up, or onto anything else?
    Ok, I might have misread it about these particular ones then. I will double check when home. I remember though one of the peltastai descriptions praising them for being able to pepper enemy covering behind/on walls. In either scenario javelin efficiency would be quite negligible.

    Also, the only time javeliners would be able to do substantial damage THROUGH a breach in the wall would be if the enemy had turned their backs or the right side towards the breach. In other cases, the shields would be pretty effective protecting the defenders against the javelin rain (a few kills at most if the defenders were facing the breach from inside).

  4. #4
    Sharp/Charismatic/Languorous Member Novellus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    152

    Default Re: v 1.2 Macedonian Peltastai (Elite): assault role must be a joke, right?

    Javelins never seem to take out as many soldiers as I thought they would. In general, even a division of Akonistai parked in the rear of an enemy deuteroi phalanx only seems to knock out a handful of phalangites, even after throwing all six. Sure, they're not elites, but one would expect more casualties on the enemy's part if they're being struck by a storm of javelins from the rear.

    But when it comes to hand-to-hand combat, the Peltastai Makedonai are killers. They hack away at the famed Spartiartai and other infantry units as well. They're so threatening that I often send in phalangites to take care of them rather than risk my other infantry units including the elites. And on walls, these things are a terror. Factions such as KH don't have very many soldiers that can stand up to them.
    My Balloon! -Strategos Alexandros- "What to do with the Epeirotes?"

    Why did the Romans fall?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Because everyone got sick of the Lorica Segmentata!

  5. #5
    Guest desert's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    The greatest polis built by men.
    Posts
    1,120

    Default Re: v 1.2 Macedonian Peltastai (Elite): assault role must be a joke, right?

    I dunno. On level ground, I've had a fresh unit of Akontistai kill half a unit of Argies through flank fire.

    BTW, are we still doing that old Bartix thing?

  6. #6
    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    In ancient Middle East, driving Assyrian war machines...
    Posts
    3,991
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: v 1.2 Macedonian Peltastai (Elite): assault role must be a joke, right?

    Well, they are excellent when they man the siege tower....

    My Projects : * Near East Total War * Nusantara Total War * Assyria Total War *
    * Watch the mind-blowing game : My Little Ponies : The Mafia Game!!! *

    Also known as SPIKE in TWC

  7. #7
    Sage of Bread Member Rilder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    EB Tavern, Professing my superiority.
    Posts
    932

    Default Re: v 1.2 Macedonian Peltastai (Elite): assault role must be a joke, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Novellus View Post
    Javelins never seem to take out as many soldiers as I thought they would. In general
    Unless your Romani and a single unit wanders in front of your army.

  8. #8

    Default Re: v 1.2 Macedonian Peltastai (Elite): assault role must be a joke, right?

    Don't complain about javelin skirmisher efficency if you use them ahistorically.
    They are supposed to harass troops in front of your phalanx, not act like human mortars...
    The best is yet to come.
    ZX MiniMod: Where MTW meets AOE
    https://www.wmwiki.com/hosted/ZxMod.exe
    Now on beta 3 with playable golden horde!



  9. #9
    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    ゞ( ゚Д゚)ゞ
    Posts
    5,974

    Default Re: v 1.2 Macedonian Peltastai (Elite): assault role must be a joke, right?

    But they hardly do anything. And the Macedonian Peltastai are pretty good, its just that most dedicated elite skirmishers aren't that great.
    Last edited by antisocialmunky; 03-24-2009 at 11:58.
    Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.



    "Hi, Billy Mays Here!" 1958-2009

  10. #10

    Default Re: v 1.2 Macedonian Peltastai (Elite): assault role must be a joke, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by antisocialmunky View Post
    But they hardly do anything. And the Macedonian Peltastai are pretty good, its just that most dedicated elite skirmishers aren't that great.
    I'm beginning to surmise, that because of all the extra armor everything has in EB (to make battles longer etc., which is a good thing imo) all missile units need a re balance. They just can't get through the extra armor. And Archers are pretty much a complete waste of time (ok IF you manage to run some archers all the way around and shoot a unit point blank in the back, they will do at least some damage, but if you can safely flank with Archers, you've pretty much won anyways..AND I severly doubt Archers were ever really used in this way).

  11. #11
    Sage of Bread Member Rilder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    EB Tavern, Professing my superiority.
    Posts
    932

    Default Re: v 1.2 Macedonian Peltastai (Elite): assault role must be a joke, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drewski View Post
    . And Archers are pretty much a complete waste of time
    From what I've seen archers are pretty good against light infantry and other missile units, not to mention the moral hurting flaming arrows. Also enemy ranged infantry tend to focus on your archers meaning less damage to your main line infantry. Remember Every enemy you kill at range is one less your men on the frontline have to face.

  12. #12
    amrtaka Member machinor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Austria 'n Italy
    Posts
    464

    Default Re: v 1.2 Macedonian Peltastai (Elite): assault role must be a joke, right?

    Battles lasting longer has more to do with lowered lethality of the various weapons. EB aims for historical accuracy in battles and in antiquity archers would not fight heavy infantry but missle troops and unarmoured skirmishers. That battlefield role they accomplish rather good. There is a historical reason, why in the Western Mediterranian there was not very much of an sophisticated archery tradition: in the West infantry tended to be better armoured (talking about Italy, Greece and Gaulk to a certain extent) and thus not that vulnerable to archers. Different combat doctrine.
    Quote Originally Posted by NickTheGreek View Post
    "Dahae always ride single file to hid their numbers, these tracks are side by side. And these arrow wounds, too accurate for Dahae, only Pahlavi Zradha Shivatir are so precise..."
    <-- My "From Basileion to Arche - A Makedonian AAR" Memorial Balloon.

  13. #13
    Haruhiist Member Zett's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Republik Freies Wendland
    Posts
    244

    Default AW: v 1.2 Macedonian Peltastai (Elite): assault role must be a joke, right?

    What would happen if we give all archers a higher attack? Would the AI start to spam them in huge numbers only because they have a high attack and are cheap or would the army composition stay as it is now?

    Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam


    Balloon Count: 4

    My Greek Nobles:
    from satalexton, his name is Plato
    from satalexton, his name is Sōkrátēs
    from satalexton, his nam is Aristotélēs

  14. #14
    Speaker of Truth Senior Member Moros's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    13,446

    Default Re: AW: v 1.2 Macedonian Peltastai (Elite): assault role must be a joke, right?

    probably it will spam them.

  15. #15

    Default Re: v 1.2 Macedonian Peltastai (Elite): assault role must be a joke, right?

    There are several threads on here describing the best way to use missile troops. They are far from useless! Of course they are weaker against heavy infantry, but that doesnt make them bad - just like cavalry charging at spearmen head on and losing doesnt make them bad.

    Try using a horse archer faction - you will soon learn how to get the best from your range troops, and have more heroic victories than you know what to do with...

    The balance is just fine how it is.

  16. #16

    Default Re: v 1.2 Macedonian Peltastai (Elite): assault role must be a joke, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by machinor View Post
    Battles lasting longer has more to do with lowered lethality of the various weapons. EB aims for historical accuracy in battles and in antiquity archers would not fight heavy infantry but missle troops and unarmoured skirmishers. That battlefield role they accomplish rather good. There is a historical reason, why in the Western Mediterranian there was not very much of an sophisticated archery tradition: in the West infantry tended to be better armoured (talking about Italy, Greece and Gaulk to a certain extent) and thus not that vulnerable to archers. Different combat doctrine.
    Sorry, but that isn't really accurate in game terms (while I agree with the historical notes). If you look at RTW base files, you'll find EB "equiv" units have on average 2 or 3 times the Defence of those. Some of the weapons have lower attack, but most actually are higher. Its the extra armor, defence and higher morales that are really responsible for longer battles.

    An average Archer in RTW is 7 missile attack (Elites are up to 11). In EB, Archers are generally around 3 missile attack. Because even Skirmishers have (compared to RTW) pretty decent armor/ and or shield/defence, Archers even struggle relatively vs them. If the point was to make Archers ineffective vs most units, then its been accomplished, with venom. I just think they've been pushed too far to the side of becoming useless.

  17. #17
    Involuntary Gaesatae Member The Celtic Viking's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    In the heart of Hyperborea
    Posts
    2,962

    Default Re: v 1.2 Macedonian Peltastai (Elite): assault role must be a joke, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drewski View Post
    Sorry, but that isn't really accurate in game terms (while I agree with the historical notes). If you look at RTW base files, you'll find EB "equiv" units have on average 2 or 3 times the Defence of those. Some of the weapons have lower attack, but most actually are higher. Its the extra armor, defence and higher morales that are really responsible for longer battles.
    I'm afraid he's correct here. Lethality is not the same as the attack, it's two different things. Attack is how likely a strike is to hit, and lethality is how likely a hit is to kill the target (when it fails, soldiers are just knocked down). In vanilla RTW the lethality was 1 for all weapons - in EB only the missile weapons have that, and that's because of hardcoded limits. The others all have much less than that - and that's the main reason for longer battles, along with a much improved morale.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drewski
    An average Archer in RTW is 7 missile attack (Elites are up to 11). In EB, Archers are generally around 3 missile attack. Because even Skirmishers have (compared to RTW) pretty decent armor/ and or shield/defence, Archers even struggle relatively vs them. If the point was to make Archers ineffective vs most units, then its been accomplished, with venom. I just think they've been pushed too far to the side of becoming useless.
    They have not become useless, you just can't put them against armoured enemies. The attack for missiles have been put low because the missiles' lethality can't be changed. A higher attack would make them overpowered, as they already are after gaining a little experience.
    Last edited by The Celtic Viking; 03-24-2009 at 15:17.

  18. #18

    Default Re: v 1.2 Macedonian Peltastai (Elite): assault role must be a joke, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Celtic Viking View Post
    I'm afraid he's correct here. Lethality is not the same as the attack, it's two different things. Attack is how likely a strike is to hit, and lethality is how likely a hit is to kill the target (when it fails, soldiers are just knocked down). In vanilla RTW the lethality was 1 for all weapons - in EB only the missile weapons have that, and that's because of hardcoded limits. The others all have much less than that - and that's the main reason for longer battles, along with a much improved morale.

    They have not become useless, you just can't put them against armoured enemies. The attack for missiles have been put low because the missiles' lethality can't be changed. A higher attack would make them overpowered, as they already are after gaining a little experience.
    You partly right, that of course the lethality is much lower, but the higher def/armor and lower attack is also part of the equation too. It doesn't matter how
    lethal an attack is, if it misses ;)

  19. #19

    Default Re: v 1.2 Macedonian Peltastai (Elite): assault role must be a joke, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Celtic Viking View Post
    I'm afraid he's correct here. Lethality is not the same as the attack, it's two different things. Attack is how likely a strike is to hit, and lethality is how likely a hit is to kill the target (when it fails, soldiers are just knocked down). In vanilla RTW the lethality was 1 for all weapons - in EB only the missile weapons have that, and that's because of hardcoded limits. The others all have much less than that - and that's the main reason for longer battles, along with a much improved morale.



    They have not become useless, you just can't put them against armoured enemies. The attack for missiles have been put low because the missiles' lethality can't be changed. A higher attack would make them overpowered, as they already are after gaining a little experience.
    On topic of archers:

    I usually bring two to four units with me depending on the faction I'm playing and enemy. They always score 150-200 kills per battle (unless enemy brought an extremely heavy army) which puts them at the top of the list of killers after the battle. They also get experience very fast.

    I position them on my flanks so they can shoot at enemy side. I also sometimes hold fire until enemy is in the right place so I don't waste ammo. In big battles there's usually no chance to manouvre them behind enemy line... but if enemy makes enough mistakes sometimes it's possible and in such cases they basically are screwed.

    Finally, if enemy brings a very heavy army, I just shoot flaming arrows at them. Even morale tanks like Extraordinarii or Triarii after such a rain of fire start having second thoughts about the battle. It doesn't give many kills but the difference between enemy units that were shot with fire arrows and those who weren't is noticable.

  20. #20
    Βασιλευς και Αυτοκρατωρ Αρχης Member Centurio Nixalsverdrus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Γερμανια Ελευθερα
    Posts
    2,321

    Default AW: v 1.2 Macedonian Peltastai (Elite): assault role must be a joke, right?

    Archers are indeed quite well balanced. Drewski, is it possible that you play on anything below huge unit size? On large or even normal, cavalry charges and ranged troops lose effectiveness significantly.
    Last edited by Centurio Nixalsverdrus; 03-24-2009 at 20:31.

  21. #21

    Default Re: AW: v 1.2 Macedonian Peltastai (Elite): assault role must be a joke, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centurio Nixalsverdrus View Post
    Archers are indeed quite well balanced. Drewski, is it possible that you play on anything below huge unit size? On large or even normal, cavalry charges and ranged troops lose effectiveness significantly.
    Unfortunately, my Graphics can't really handle Huge Unit size adequately. Tried it for a while, but the mid battle freezes/ lack of control was too frustrating. I also found, that the camera doesn't really pan out far enough to get a proper view of the battlefield (with huge units), and if you put a 20 stack Army in a straight line, it covers virtually the whole battlefield ! Which kinda gives the idea, that the game wasn't really designed to be played with huge unit sizes.

    So in short, No ;)
    Last edited by Drewski; 03-24-2009 at 21:58.

  22. #22
    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    ゞ( ゚Д゚)ゞ
    Posts
    5,974

    Default Re: AW: v 1.2 Macedonian Peltastai (Elite): assault role must be a joke, right?

    Archers are great. :) Also, just so you gus know, all missiles have 1 lethality meaning if it successfully strikes a unit, it dies. So its a little different balancing these guys.
    Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.



    "Hi, Billy Mays Here!" 1958-2009

  23. #23
    Sage of Bread Member Rilder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    EB Tavern, Professing my superiority.
    Posts
    932

    Default Re: AW: v 1.2 Macedonian Peltastai (Elite): assault role must be a joke, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centurio Nixalsverdrus View Post
    On large or even normal, cavalry charges and ranged troops lose effectiveness significantly.
    You are completely wrong about the calvary charges on that part, I hate using calvary and on large they are absolutely devastating if used right. Ranged units aren't too bad either, at least not the levy ones, like the Toxotai. And even Toxotai are useful early on as cheap range support.
    Last edited by Rilder; 03-25-2009 at 08:38.

  24. #24
    Member Member mosedavid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Clek Hudders Fax, England
    Posts
    31

    Default Re: v 1.2 Macedonian Peltastai (Elite): assault role must be a joke, right?

    blimey.... ive just fought a siege battle with those very same elite mak units attacking and they probably killed 4 to 1 against my light italian merc spearmen (the ones in white), routed a regular classic hoplite, some galatican swordmen etc etc. I won but there wasnt much left of my army. A force of those and some mak phalanx are pretty unbeatable. Brilliant morale. I'm playing as rome, seen off carthage and now against Macedonia its the first time in EB1.2 that i've been up against anything as good as those and the reformed phalanx. BTW, are phalanx units suposed to have such amazing attack stats? the ones I was fighting against had something like 19 attack and 30 something defense. And I have Camillian troops - at best :(. Can't be right can it?

  25. #25
    Member Member anubis88's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Slovenia
    Posts
    3,400

    Default Re: v 1.2 Macedonian Peltastai (Elite): assault role must be a joke, right?

    they must be extremely experienced troops
    Europa Barbarorum Secretary

  26. #26
    Member Member theoldbelgian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    64,8 stadies from the east bank of the scaldis
    Posts
    177

    Default Re: v 1.2 Macedonian Peltastai (Elite): assault role must be a joke, right?

    I found a rather practical use for archers in which slingers don't excel that much
    assault battles against wooden walls
    they keep other missile troops away from your ramming men or better kill every skirmisher that thinks about throwing a javelin at my elephants
    for some reason they shoot better at walls then slingers
    its propably the thing that when you sling a rock in a bow and it lands it doen't have thet much force anymore
    but an arrow stays pointy no matter if its slowed down by friction

  27. #27
    Member Member Darth Stalin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Main station of "Friendship" pipeline
    Posts
    241

    Default Re: v 1.2 Macedonian Peltastai (Elite): assault role must be a joke, right?

    It's due to the ballistics - whatever is thrown from a sling, it's trajectory is rather flat, thus anything on its way can stop the missile/bullet. Arrows fired by archers have their trajectory more peaked, thus are able to fly over the wall and hit the poor guys behind it.
    Last edited by Darth Stalin; 03-25-2009 at 20:19.
    DARTH STALIN - Lord Generalissimus of the Union of the Socialist Sith Republic

  28. #28
    A Livonian Rebel Member Slaists's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    1,828

    Default Re: v 1.2 Macedonian Peltastai (Elite): assault role must be a joke, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Stalin View Post
    It's due to the ballistics - whatever is thrown from a sling, it's trajectory is rather flat, thus anything on its way can stop the missile/bullet. Arrows fired by archers have their trajectory more peaked, thus are able to fly over the wall and hit the poor guys behind it.
    well, it depends how far a slinger wants to shoot. i find it rather unrealistic how the game engine shows the slingers shooting stones over huge distances in straight line. gravity works on stones too... at such distances, unless aimed much higher, the stones would have hit the ground long time before reaching their target.

  29. #29
    Member Member Darth Stalin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Main station of "Friendship" pipeline
    Posts
    241

    Default Re: v 1.2 Macedonian Peltastai (Elite): assault role must be a joke, right?

    Nope; think about the stones/lead balls as ancient "armour-piercing, high-speed projectiles" - these being shot fro modern tank guns also have high speed and flat trajectory, while being able to fly on quite long distances (2-3 km) - due to high speed and horizontal acceleration.
    DARTH STALIN - Lord Generalissimus of the Union of the Socialist Sith Republic

  30. #30
    Member Member Africanvs's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Conroe, Texas
    Posts
    266

    Default Re: v 1.2 Macedonian Peltastai (Elite): assault role must be a joke, right?

    I find the Peltastai Makedonikoi to be pretty good troops if you can afford them. I have found them to be a strong alternative to regular peltastai but due to their lower numbers, the unit seems to diminish quickly. I have not tried them in an assault role, such as storming walls. I usually use Agrianians for that. I'll have to try them out and see how they fare.
    "Insipientis est dicere, Non putarvm."

    "It is the part of a fool to say, I should not have thought."
    -Pvblivs Cornelivs Scipio Africanvs


    Lives: Pvblivs Cornelivs Scipio (A Romani AAR)
    Lives: Alkyoneus Argeades (A Makedonian AAR)


Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO