Not flaming Ca

[Veresov]

I for one hold the game developer CA responsible for delivering a quality product. In business people work all the time with deadlines and there is NO excuse for delivering an inferior product. I find it amazing that some users are happy with substandard products and grateful that they got what they got. I guess that is why used car salesmen are still successful.

[gollum]

Originally posted by Veresov
I for one hold the game developer CA responsible for delivering a quality product.

Hello Veresov,
Maybe you mean holding them responsible for not delivering a quality product?

[Kaidonni]

I for one hold the game developer CA responsible for delivering a quality product. In business people work all the time with deadlines and there is NO excuse for delivering an inferior product. I find it amazing that some users are happy with substandard products and grateful that they got what they got. I guess that is why used car salesmen are still successful.

I think you'll find that more often than not the people at the top, the suits, have very little comprehension of game development beyond the fact it can bring them money, and lots of it, too. One forum I visit, CG Society, has a thread dedicated to the idiocy some people come out with, and plenty of times, the bosses have turned out to be total morons. Seriously. Not giving relevant information, placing unrealistic deadlines, thinking it's all magic, that sort of thing. I suspect pretty much this has happened with the recent Total War games. The people on the shop floor do their darned best, but they can only do so much with some of the very much ridiculous restraints and pressures put on them. At the end of the day, if they can't get something done, they really haven't been allowed enough time, because that is what it takes - time. Unless a company is it's own publisher as well as developer, like Valve (with the Half Life games and Portal, to name but a limited number of games they've produced), then that company will face problems. And yes, you might think that the people running companies should have an idea about making games, but they don't - sometimes, the people assigned to running the shop floor don't always have what it takes, yet their word is gospel, you have to do what they say.

The state of the gaming industry will be determined by the attitude of the people at the top, the suits. If they want something, it's money, and they will get it, or your company could easily be finished, and the lives of your employees. It is sad, yes, but unless people vote with their feet by the tens of thousands, expecting only the best of titles like Total War, the people on the shop floor will remain slaves to the machine that is ignorance and greed combined.

CA have basically done the best they can under the circumstances, and in an economic downturn, they won't want to argue with any of their bosses because that can mean disaster. Their bosses probably won't understand anyway, and will wonder where the 'Make Campaign Map' button is and why no one has used it yet (disturbingly, that is a very realistic possibility with some people).

[gollum]

Hello Kaidonni, how come you left MTW to make the jump to ETW?

Originally posted by Kaidonni
I think you'll find that more often than not the people at the top, the suits, have very little comprehension of game development beyond the fact it can bring them money, and lots of it, too. One forum I visit, CG Society, has a thread dedicated to the idiocy some people come out with, and plenty of times, the bosses have turned out to be total morons. Seriously. Not giving relevant information, placing unrealistic deadlines, thinking it's all magic, that sort of thing. I suspect pretty much this has happened with the recent Total War games. The people on the shop floor do their darned best, but they can only do so much with some of the very much ridiculous restraints and pressures put on them. At the end of the day, if they can't get something done, they really haven't been allowed enough time, because that is what it takes - time. Unless a company is it's own publisher as well as developer, like Valve (with the Half Life games and Portal, to name but a limited number of games they've produced), then that company will face problems. And yes, you might think that the people running companies should have an idea about making games, but they don't - sometimes, the people assigned to running the shop floor don't always have what it takes, yet their word is gospel, you have to do what they say.

OR you can still accept the risks and stay independent - but not everyone is 28 or 34 for ever. People have mortgages and wife and kids to feed and some admittedly ambitions of grandeur that take far more than wife and kids. But this is the real world. And those that wish it better, start their own mods or their own game companies even or at the very least - they boycott effectively instead of hanging around the same scene for 9 years only just complaining. I am sure that the *suits* are laughing sardonically at such threads because, despite their *idiocy* they are smart enough to figure out that pc game fans complaining is a sort of a vice in many cases (not all). In other words it feels good. I would go as far to say that they consider it a good sign

The state of the gaming industry will be determined by the attitude of the people at the top, the suits. If they want something, it's money, and they will get it, or your company could easily be finished, and the lives of your employees. It is sad, yes, but unless people vote with their feet by the tens of thousands, expecting only the best of titles like Total War, the people on the shop floor will remain slaves to the machine that is ignorance and greed combined.

Well thank God then that we talk about the game idustry and not any other vital one - it isnt exactly the end of the world if people that make decisions there are corrupt and greedy. At the most we ll have to stop playing games. Hardly significant loss - or not?

CA have basically done the best they can under the circumstances, and in an economic downturn, they won't want to argue with any of their bosses because that can mean disaster. Their bosses probably won't understand anyway, and will wonder where the 'Make Campaign Map' button is and why no one has used it yet (disturbingly, that is a very realistic possibility with some people).

CA have been *doing their best* eversince 2004 that they ve discovered that releasing a game with 100 times more bugs than up to then, with 100 more features that the AI cant use than up to then, 100 times less playtested than up to then, but with a 100 times better graphics than up to then, made the fanbase 100 times bigger than up to then

Now please expand...

[The_Reckoning]

I think the problem is the game industry/game journalism industry corruption. Spore was reviewed and got many 9/10s. That's enough to prove something's wrong.

When people stop trusting these liars, and rely only on word of mouth and forum feedback, then we'll see an improvement in the quality of games. As it is now, reviewers suck up to the games companies because otherwise their magazine/website has advertising pulled. So publishers can just boot a game out onto the shelves and they know if it's so hotly anticipated at E:TW was, it'll still bring in good reviews.

Unfortunately it'll be a while before people learn not to be such blind sheep.

[gollum]

Originally posted by The_Reckoning
I think the problem is the game industry/game journalism industry corruption. Spore was reviewed and got many 9/10s. That's enough to prove something's wrong.

When people stop trusting these liars, and rely only on word of mouth and forum feedback, then we'll see an improvement in the quality of games. As it is now, reviewers suck up to the games companies because otherwise their magazine/website has advertising pulled. So publishers can just boot a game out onto the shelves and they know if it's so hotly anticipated at E:TW was, it'll still bring in good reviews.

Unfortunately it'll be a while before people learn not to be such blind sheep.

Hello The_Reckoning,
Well these *liars* are there for that reason precisely - however they do have a function - and that function is to review all titles not just the big ones. So instead of giving the responsibility to them why dont we turn the light right back to where it belongs ie to us the fans? How many of us buy games that have a good AI, take time to learn, are well thought out and balanced, have good support but lack a brand name and graphics? How many know about Les Grognards (http://www.battlefront.com/products/les_grog/) or 2nd Manassas (http://madminutegames.com/)? The people that develop them were amateurs like you and me that turned developers undergoing the risk of bankruptcy in the process. So?

Not many i presume... and why? Because they are for hardcores, boring etc etc etc. So now lets go all back to complain about CA/SEGA and after that play some more ETW, before we log back in to complain some more...

[gollum]

Hello Kaidonni, i see. Imho ETW is better than RTW/M2TW - however it isnt even on a par with MTW.

[CanCritter]

Hello Kaidonni, i see. Imho ETW is better than RTW/M2TW - however it isnt even on a par with MTW.

bottom line for me.....what Gollum said...at least with mtw units were responcive and went and did what ya told them to do...
had a calv unit chaseing a calv arty unit...in mtw l woulda had them dead...in etw they did everything but attack calv arty....across whole map they couldnt catch them or could l force them into a position to block......
anyway what Gollum said.......

[The_Reckoning]

Not many i presume... and why? Because they are for hardcores, boring etc etc etc. So now lets go all back to complain about CA/SEGA and after that play some more ETW, before we log back in to complain some more...

The thing is E:TW would be an amazing game, if it were finished. I'm sure those games are fun, and maybe have awesome AI, but they're not Total War. If TW was just a battle simulator I'd probably not have played it.

It's the interplay between campaign map strategy and battles which makes the games fun and unique. It's not just a battle to kill the enemy, it's a battle where the consequences of losing mean that all the hard work on the strategy map pay off; the one which will put your rival out of the game, or the one which will mean your nation is done for.

E:TW is practically unplayable for me. I enjoy commanding the few pivotal battles, and spending the rest of the time on the campaign map. With so many aspects of the game in a beta state I can't play it. And it's not just for hardcore players, if it has good AI. It's about creating pivotal moments, they're the parts people enjoy. Some people are just too dumb to notice that when the AI's horrible, it makes no difference how well they do. Some enjoy the one-sidedness, where they don't have to do anything right to take over the world in the game. Where it's just a case of how qucikly they can do it, without a chance that the tables would be turned and they fail.

That's why multiplayer is so much more fun in most games, because you get comebacks, surprise tactics and innovation.

Why I blame the journalists, is if the corruption didn't exist, if they made their money being brutally honest and ripping games to shreds, like Yahtzee, rather than being fluffers for the publishing compaines who advertise with their media, then companies like SEGA would rather their dev. studios make the best product possible, the incentive to rush things would be massively reduced. They'd know that if their game came out and was so buggy as to be unplayable, they'd get bad reviews and bad sales.

It'd work the same way the restaurant industry works. You don't get bad food and well-reviewed restaurants, because critics are harsh, and make their names on being honest. The same of everything with a media complex surrounding it. The countries with the most liberal media are often the best governed.

[gollum]

Hello Didz,
you are preaching to the converted. All i tried to point out is not to let CA slip past the hook in your books. They know very well the game and play by the rules.

Hello The_Reckoning,
you are right mp has this advantage over sp - in case you are interested feel free to join the org ETW mp group;
http://steamcommunity.com/groups/etwmp

[Quickening]

I think the problem is the game industry/game journalism industry corruption. Spore was reviewed and got many 9/10s. That's enough to prove something's wrong.

When people stop trusting these liars, and rely only on word of mouth and forum feedback, then we'll see an improvement in the quality of games. As it is now, reviewers suck up to the games companies because otherwise their magazine/website has advertising pulled. So publishers can just boot a game out onto the shelves and they know if it's so hotly anticipated at E:TW was, it'll still bring in good reviews.

Unfortunately it'll be a while before people learn not to be such blind sheep.

Quoted for truth but I also agree with Gollums assertion that the responcibility should rest with the buyer themselves although lets face it, it's too much to ask people to think for themselves.
It's a sad state of affairs when you can guess the kind of score a game will get in major publications the moment it is announced but trust me, you can. I've been doing it for years. I knew that Empire: Total War would get rave reviews just like you can predict shallow tat like Spore getting rave reviews because the "innovation" of such games is hyped so much that by the time the review comes the reader has already bought it. Black and White was a great example of such a game. I'm not saying it was bad, but by God did the mainstream go mad over this thing in the day and although an enjoyable game it wasn't exactly the work of genius it was claimed to be.

Now as it happens, I love Empire and I've been fortunate enough to not have any problems aside from being unable to install from the second DVD. But on the matter of CA... I just don't know. I don't buy this "evil publisher ruling with an iron fist over the peasant developers who toil away alturistically" thing. The fact of the matter is that we've had this same experience time and again with this series and some people will always blame the publisher. They may well be a factor but I really doubt it's as simple as that. We just don't know.
As for CA being publically pleased having Sega as their publisher, well, they aren't exactly going to come out and say "yeah these guys suck, this will be a testing time"

[MikeV]

It's a sad state of affairs when you can guess the kind of score a game will get in major publications the moment it is announced but trust me, you can. I've been doing it for years.

A bit off-topic, but I've noticed the same things with movies from Hollywood: the more advertising near the release date, the more of a dog they're pushing. Since game companies are consciously imitating Hollywood (why ?!?! ), the inverse correlation you note is probably to be expected.

Nowadays, I don't buy anything Hollywood is selling. Will the same become true of game software?

[Kaidonni]

Gollum: Actually, I don't have ETW. Won't be getting it for a while, if ever. Bad experience with Stalker: Clear Sky, you see.

[MikeV]

Well thank God then that we talk about the game idustry and not any other vital one - it isnt exactly the end of the world if people that make decisions there are corrupt and greedy. At the most we ll have to stop playing games. Hardly significant loss - or not?

You mean, like Wall Street, which used the same practices, and the ongoing global financial market meltdown? That's not significant?

All software companies, not just game developers, are run by "suits," rather than by technically competent folks. On the other hand, the latter tend to fuss over and polish unimportant details to the point of never sending out a release.

So, as with anything in life, it's a question of balance. In this case, business needs (timely revenue/ROI) vs. product quality. As I've pointed out elsewhere, each successive CA release has been worse on the product quality. Sadly, this one sets a new low water mark.

[gollum]

Hello MikeV,
that paragraph you quoted was taken out of context - it was a reply to someone elses post that has nothing to do with what you post here.

Out of curiosity since when did you started playing TW and did you play mp as well as sp?

[MikeV]

Hello MikeV,
that paragraph you quoted was taken out of context - it was a reply to someone elses post that has nothing to do with what you post here.

Point taken, sorry.

Out of curiosity since when did you started playing TW and did you play mp as well as sp?

I started with the original Shogun, and have tried every version and expansion since (except Alexander). I modded my copies of R:TW and M2:TW to do AORs and building trees more to my liking.

I've only ever used SP mode, and spent the vast majority of my time on the strat map. I've never enjoyed FPSs, MMO frag fests, or any of that sort of stuff. Chalk it up to being a 3-decade grognard, I guess.

[Tsavong]

I for one hold the game developer CA responsible for delivering a quality product. In business people work all the time with deadlines and there is NO excuse for delivering an inferior product. I find it amazing that some users are happy with substandard products and grateful that they got what they got.

Substandard compared to what? All software has bugs the bigger the software the more it is likely to have bugs in it. Just look at how often windows is updated. And Empire is a big bit of software which is a quality bit of work its just a shame due to time money and the size of it they could not sort out all the ruff edges but it is still playable.
Lets compare it to say CoD 4 that needs 8GB compared to Empires 15GB Its single player is a liner scripted campaign where as empire is much more complicated and less scripted and I've still had bugs and crashes in CoD 4 and it has still had patches.

I guess that is why used car salesmen are still successful.

I guess you are ether not old enough to have a car or rich enough not to worry about the cost of one. A well looked after car can last for years my sister has a 15 year old Nissan that has done 120k miles and is still going strong and it only cost her £500 she got a good deal for her 1st car I say.

And lastly new cars have problems too, need software updates and parts replaced etc.

I for one am enjoying playing Empire total war at the mo.

[quadalpha]

Maybe we should sticky one of the rant threads and avoid the repetition.

[gollum]

Originally posted by quadalpha
Maybe we should sticky one of the rant threads and avoid the repetition.

A dangerous proposition - complain threads especially early in a release spread like mushrooms, and actually for whatever reason people are complaining (bugs, dissapointment or for the sheer hell of it) its one of the things a forum is about. It is a good way out for the fans in case things are really wrong (and even if they arent ) and a good gauge for the developer too.

Closing that route - would make the fanbase like a pressure cooker without a release valve

[MikeV]

A dangerous proposition - complain threads especially early in a release spread like mushrooms, and actually for whatever reason people are complaining (bugs, dissapointment or for the sheer hell of it) its one of the things a forum is about. It is a good way out for the fans in case things are really wrong (and even if they arent ) and a good gauge for the developer too.

Closing that route - would make the fanbase like a pressure cooker without a release valve

A wise decision.

[Veresov]

Just for the record Zerg,

I can't even play Empire because of all the well documented hardware incompatibilities. It is not a minor bug when you have sound issues and a consistent CTD after pressing the end turn button. I am one out of many, many users having problems. The technical help sections at the official forums are flooded with users unable to play this game. A gameplay bug is one thing but this is something absolutely unacceptable when you play for a game and can't play it.

Now perhaps you can understand why I review Empire as an unacceptably flawed product. I CAN'T EVEN RUN IT after several weeks of purchasing it and 3 patches to date! I hope now that you understand some of the hostility I have towards Creative Assembly and why I could care less about Sega, deadlines, ect. At the end of the day, Empire is an expensive coaster for me.

[gollum]

That sounds pretty bad Veresov,
good luck with it.

My advice for rule of thumb with TW games is never to buy before v2.0. And before you ask, yes that means not buying RTW/M2TW

[Fisherking]

For many of us Steam seems to be ok because it allows such quick updates.

The down side is you have to have them and you can’t go back if the fix causes some other problem to crop up.

All in all however, I have to say I like the way it is going.

The game has issues but it is getting fixed and the downloads from steam have been quick.

[CanCritter]

dont know anything about steam.....yesterdays update was quick easy painless and not even noticed by most...brought everyones game stats up to par quicky without haveing to run around huntin a patch...guess this part has gotta be a good thing for us all




srry for 2 posts....just wakein up :O)

[MikeV]

For many of us Steam seems to be ok because it allows such quick updates.

The down side is you have to have them and you can’t go back if the fix causes some other problem to crop up.

Well, I think the decision to use Steam for "quick" updates to buggy software is deeply flawed (I can buy the MP justification, but imitating Micro$oft's lousy practice is Not Good). To date, they're not turning around the bug fixes any faster than the olde way.

I really, Really, REALLY hate the loss of control over patching this software. It needs to be under my control when to apply the patch, and I need to be able to undo/redo if it doesn't take (or makes things worse). I don't dare let Steam go into Online mode for the former reason, but I have no recourse for the latter (other than to wait for some other brave souls to try the new patch and let me know it's OK to proceed).

[gollum]

Dear me, gotta be careful what we post - dont wanna end up with the lions or something...

[MikeV]

I really, Really, REALLY hate the loss of control over patching this software. It needs to be under my control when to apply the patch, and I need to be able to undo/redo if it doesn't take (or makes things worse). I don't dare let Steam go into Online mode for the former reason, but I have no recourse for the latter (other than to wait for some other brave souls to try the new patch and let me know it's OK to proceed).

OK, I found a solution for this one. First, it's possible to set an option in the Steam client and ask it not to automatically patch the app (which, for some reason, it ignores/resets). Second, the Steam client has a "Back up game files" option that, for E:TW, with create either 14 CD images or 2 DVD images. Presumably, if the patch scrogs your system, you can roll back. A bit of a bludgeon, but workable.

[CavalryCmdr]

Why do people continue to complain about this?

All software has bugs the bigger the software the more it is likely to have bugs in it.

It has been that way since computers started, the only difference now is the Net allows companies to release software with more bugs in it. On the other hand, a game (or any software of this magnitude) would probably not even have been attempted without that allowance. There is not a single piece of software available any ware that is "bug-free." such a thing dose not exist, and if you think it dose you simply have not found the bugs yet. The best you can hope for with any piece of software is continued support and patches. Though admittedly CA has been lax in that department and will be a valid platform for complaint when they stop supporting Empires, as it is that they stopped supporting M2.

I can't even play Empire because of all the well documented hardware incompatibilities.

Try testing any piece of software with all possible hardware combinations and let me know how far you get, costs aside it will be impossible. It is greatly disturbing they released it incompatible with some big names (such as NVidia,) I'll give you that, even so such big names are well known to be incompatible with any software that was not expressly made for it (ie "presented by Nvidia" logo, which of course, costs the software company money) that's how they make the money to become such a big name. For most hardware incompatibilities they have temporary workarounds that should at least allow the game to run until there are compatible drivers or patches that make the game compatible.

[MikeV]

It has been that way since computers started, the only difference now is the Net allows companies to release software with more bugs in it. On the other hand, a game (or any software of this magnitude) would probably not even have been attempted without that allowance. There is not a single piece of software available any ware that is "bug-free." such a thing dose not exist, and if you think it dose you simply have not found the bugs yet. The best you can hope for with any piece of software is continued support and patches.

Your assertion is plausible for the old-fashioned, 20th Century, way of developing and publishing software. The critical issue is that there is not enough time and talent to work out all the (significant) bugs before release, and the folks are needed for the next project after the release.

However, the modern approach is to get as many eyeballs as possible on the code, and to spread the workload of finding and exterminating the bugs over as large a population as possible. Dare I say "open source"? A revolutionary notion, indeed -- 'way beyond simple modding via data changes.

[antisocialmunky]

Your assertion is plausible for the old-fashioned, 20th Century, way of developing and publishing software. The critical issue is that there is not enough time and talent to work out all the (significant) bugs before release, and the folks are needed for the next project after the release.

However, the modern approach is to get as many eyeballs as possible on the code, and to spread the workload of finding and exterminating the bugs over as large a population as possible. Dare I say "open source"? A revolutionary notion, indeed -- 'way beyond simple modding via data changes.

Silly hippie, this is a comercial product.

What do you think open betas are for anyways? CA really should release one for the next game seriously, they should have learned by now that they can't stamp out all the bugs in house.