Not flaming Ca

[Kaidonni]

I for one hold the game developer CA responsible for delivering a quality product. In business people work all the time with deadlines and there is NO excuse for delivering an inferior product. I find it amazing that some users are happy with substandard products and grateful that they got what they got. I guess that is why used car salesmen are still successful.

I think you'll find that more often than not the people at the top, the suits, have very little comprehension of game development beyond the fact it can bring them money, and lots of it, too. One forum I visit, CG Society, has a thread dedicated to the idiocy some people come out with, and plenty of times, the bosses have turned out to be total morons. Seriously. Not giving relevant information, placing unrealistic deadlines, thinking it's all magic, that sort of thing. I suspect pretty much this has happened with the recent Total War games. The people on the shop floor do their darned best, but they can only do so much with some of the very much ridiculous restraints and pressures put on them. At the end of the day, if they can't get something done, they really haven't been allowed enough time, because that is what it takes - time. Unless a company is it's own publisher as well as developer, like Valve (with the Half Life games and Portal, to name but a limited number of games they've produced), then that company will face problems. And yes, you might think that the people running companies should have an idea about making games, but they don't - sometimes, the people assigned to running the shop floor don't always have what it takes, yet their word is gospel, you have to do what they say.

The state of the gaming industry will be determined by the attitude of the people at the top, the suits. If they want something, it's money, and they will get it, or your company could easily be finished, and the lives of your employees. It is sad, yes, but unless people vote with their feet by the tens of thousands, expecting only the best of titles like Total War, the people on the shop floor will remain slaves to the machine that is ignorance and greed combined.

CA have basically done the best they can under the circumstances, and in an economic downturn, they won't want to argue with any of their bosses because that can mean disaster. Their bosses probably won't understand anyway, and will wonder where the 'Make Campaign Map' button is and why no one has used it yet (disturbingly, that is a very realistic possibility with some people).

[gollum]

Hello Kaidonni, how come you left MTW to make the jump to ETW?

Originally posted by Kaidonni
I think you'll find that more often than not the people at the top, the suits, have very little comprehension of game development beyond the fact it can bring them money, and lots of it, too. One forum I visit, CG Society, has a thread dedicated to the idiocy some people come out with, and plenty of times, the bosses have turned out to be total morons. Seriously. Not giving relevant information, placing unrealistic deadlines, thinking it's all magic, that sort of thing. I suspect pretty much this has happened with the recent Total War games. The people on the shop floor do their darned best, but they can only do so much with some of the very much ridiculous restraints and pressures put on them. At the end of the day, if they can't get something done, they really haven't been allowed enough time, because that is what it takes - time. Unless a company is it's own publisher as well as developer, like Valve (with the Half Life games and Portal, to name but a limited number of games they've produced), then that company will face problems. And yes, you might think that the people running companies should have an idea about making games, but they don't - sometimes, the people assigned to running the shop floor don't always have what it takes, yet their word is gospel, you have to do what they say.

OR you can still accept the risks and stay independent - but not everyone is 28 or 34 for ever. People have mortgages and wife and kids to feed and some admittedly ambitions of grandeur that take far more than wife and kids. But this is the real world. And those that wish it better, start their own mods or their own game companies even or at the very least - they boycott effectively instead of hanging around the same scene for 9 years only just complaining. I am sure that the *suits* are laughing sardonically at such threads because, despite their *idiocy* they are smart enough to figure out that pc game fans complaining is a sort of a vice in many cases (not all). In other words it feels good. I would go as far to say that they consider it a good sign

The state of the gaming industry will be determined by the attitude of the people at the top, the suits. If they want something, it's money, and they will get it, or your company could easily be finished, and the lives of your employees. It is sad, yes, but unless people vote with their feet by the tens of thousands, expecting only the best of titles like Total War, the people on the shop floor will remain slaves to the machine that is ignorance and greed combined.

Well thank God then that we talk about the game idustry and not any other vital one - it isnt exactly the end of the world if people that make decisions there are corrupt and greedy. At the most we ll have to stop playing games. Hardly significant loss - or not?

CA have basically done the best they can under the circumstances, and in an economic downturn, they won't want to argue with any of their bosses because that can mean disaster. Their bosses probably won't understand anyway, and will wonder where the 'Make Campaign Map' button is and why no one has used it yet (disturbingly, that is a very realistic possibility with some people).

CA have been *doing their best* eversince 2004 that they ve discovered that releasing a game with 100 times more bugs than up to then, with 100 more features that the AI cant use than up to then, 100 times less playtested than up to then, but with a 100 times better graphics than up to then, made the fanbase 100 times bigger than up to then

Now please expand...

[The_Reckoning]

I think the problem is the game industry/game journalism industry corruption. Spore was reviewed and got many 9/10s. That's enough to prove something's wrong.

When people stop trusting these liars, and rely only on word of mouth and forum feedback, then we'll see an improvement in the quality of games. As it is now, reviewers suck up to the games companies because otherwise their magazine/website has advertising pulled. So publishers can just boot a game out onto the shelves and they know if it's so hotly anticipated at E:TW was, it'll still bring in good reviews.

Unfortunately it'll be a while before people learn not to be such blind sheep.

[gollum]

Originally posted by The_Reckoning
I think the problem is the game industry/game journalism industry corruption. Spore was reviewed and got many 9/10s. That's enough to prove something's wrong.

When people stop trusting these liars, and rely only on word of mouth and forum feedback, then we'll see an improvement in the quality of games. As it is now, reviewers suck up to the games companies because otherwise their magazine/website has advertising pulled. So publishers can just boot a game out onto the shelves and they know if it's so hotly anticipated at E:TW was, it'll still bring in good reviews.

Unfortunately it'll be a while before people learn not to be such blind sheep.

Hello The_Reckoning,
Well these *liars* are there for that reason precisely - however they do have a function - and that function is to review all titles not just the big ones. So instead of giving the responsibility to them why dont we turn the light right back to where it belongs ie to us the fans? How many of us buy games that have a good AI, take time to learn, are well thought out and balanced, have good support but lack a brand name and graphics? How many know about Les Grognards (http://www.battlefront.com/products/les_grog/) or 2nd Manassas (http://madminutegames.com/)? The people that develop them were amateurs like you and me that turned developers undergoing the risk of bankruptcy in the process. So?

Not many i presume... and why? Because they are for hardcores, boring etc etc etc. So now lets go all back to complain about CA/SEGA and after that play some more ETW, before we log back in to complain some more...

[gollum]

Hello Kaidonni, i see. Imho ETW is better than RTW/M2TW - however it isnt even on a par with MTW.

[CanCritter]

Hello Kaidonni, i see. Imho ETW is better than RTW/M2TW - however it isnt even on a par with MTW.

bottom line for me.....what Gollum said...at least with mtw units were responcive and went and did what ya told them to do...
had a calv unit chaseing a calv arty unit...in mtw l woulda had them dead...in etw they did everything but attack calv arty....across whole map they couldnt catch them or could l force them into a position to block......
anyway what Gollum said.......

[gollum]

Hello CanCritter,
thanks for the kind words and i agree with you but there are few of us left now - the TW fanbase consist out of many people that never even played MTW. So its really a point of view between us and not for the community as a whole.



PS The Main Hall its still going strong for those left...

[The_Reckoning]

Not many i presume... and why? Because they are for hardcores, boring etc etc etc. So now lets go all back to complain about CA/SEGA and after that play some more ETW, before we log back in to complain some more...

The thing is E:TW would be an amazing game, if it were finished. I'm sure those games are fun, and maybe have awesome AI, but they're not Total War. If TW was just a battle simulator I'd probably not have played it.

It's the interplay between campaign map strategy and battles which makes the games fun and unique. It's not just a battle to kill the enemy, it's a battle where the consequences of losing mean that all the hard work on the strategy map pay off; the one which will put your rival out of the game, or the one which will mean your nation is done for.

E:TW is practically unplayable for me. I enjoy commanding the few pivotal battles, and spending the rest of the time on the campaign map. With so many aspects of the game in a beta state I can't play it. And it's not just for hardcore players, if it has good AI. It's about creating pivotal moments, they're the parts people enjoy. Some people are just too dumb to notice that when the AI's horrible, it makes no difference how well they do. Some enjoy the one-sidedness, where they don't have to do anything right to take over the world in the game. Where it's just a case of how qucikly they can do it, without a chance that the tables would be turned and they fail.

That's why multiplayer is so much more fun in most games, because you get comebacks, surprise tactics and innovation.

Why I blame the journalists, is if the corruption didn't exist, if they made their money being brutally honest and ripping games to shreds, like Yahtzee, rather than being fluffers for the publishing compaines who advertise with their media, then companies like SEGA would rather their dev. studios make the best product possible, the incentive to rush things would be massively reduced. They'd know that if their game came out and was so buggy as to be unplayable, they'd get bad reviews and bad sales.

It'd work the same way the restaurant industry works. You don't get bad food and well-reviewed restaurants, because critics are harsh, and make their names on being honest. The same of everything with a media complex surrounding it. The countries with the most liberal media are often the best governed.

[gollum]

Hello Didz,
you are preaching to the converted. All i tried to point out is not to let CA slip past the hook in your books. They know very well the game and play by the rules.

Hello The_Reckoning,
you are right mp has this advantage over sp - in case you are interested feel free to join the org ETW mp group;
http://steamcommunity.com/groups/etwmp

[Beskar]

I think a point is, who has actually used the special forces units?

I certainly haven't, they are subpar to my other choices. They do nothing for the game for me, just a waste of space on the UI.

[Quickening]

I think the problem is the game industry/game journalism industry corruption. Spore was reviewed and got many 9/10s. That's enough to prove something's wrong.

When people stop trusting these liars, and rely only on word of mouth and forum feedback, then we'll see an improvement in the quality of games. As it is now, reviewers suck up to the games companies because otherwise their magazine/website has advertising pulled. So publishers can just boot a game out onto the shelves and they know if it's so hotly anticipated at E:TW was, it'll still bring in good reviews.

Unfortunately it'll be a while before people learn not to be such blind sheep.

Quoted for truth but I also agree with Gollums assertion that the responcibility should rest with the buyer themselves although lets face it, it's too much to ask people to think for themselves.
It's a sad state of affairs when you can guess the kind of score a game will get in major publications the moment it is announced but trust me, you can. I've been doing it for years. I knew that Empire: Total War would get rave reviews just like you can predict shallow tat like Spore getting rave reviews because the "innovation" of such games is hyped so much that by the time the review comes the reader has already bought it. Black and White was a great example of such a game. I'm not saying it was bad, but by God did the mainstream go mad over this thing in the day and although an enjoyable game it wasn't exactly the work of genius it was claimed to be.

Now as it happens, I love Empire and I've been fortunate enough to not have any problems aside from being unable to install from the second DVD. But on the matter of CA... I just don't know. I don't buy this "evil publisher ruling with an iron fist over the peasant developers who toil away alturistically" thing. The fact of the matter is that we've had this same experience time and again with this series and some people will always blame the publisher. They may well be a factor but I really doubt it's as simple as that. We just don't know.
As for CA being publically pleased having Sega as their publisher, well, they aren't exactly going to come out and say "yeah these guys suck, this will be a testing time"

[MikeV]

It's a sad state of affairs when you can guess the kind of score a game will get in major publications the moment it is announced but trust me, you can. I've been doing it for years.

A bit off-topic, but I've noticed the same things with movies from Hollywood: the more advertising near the release date, the more of a dog they're pushing. Since game companies are consciously imitating Hollywood (why ?!?! ), the inverse correlation you note is probably to be expected.

Nowadays, I don't buy anything Hollywood is selling. Will the same become true of game software?

[Kaidonni]

Gollum: Actually, I don't have ETW. Won't be getting it for a while, if ever. Bad experience with Stalker: Clear Sky, you see.

[MikeV]

Well thank God then that we talk about the game idustry and not any other vital one - it isnt exactly the end of the world if people that make decisions there are corrupt and greedy. At the most we ll have to stop playing games. Hardly significant loss - or not?

You mean, like Wall Street, which used the same practices, and the ongoing global financial market meltdown? That's not significant?

All software companies, not just game developers, are run by "suits," rather than by technically competent folks. On the other hand, the latter tend to fuss over and polish unimportant details to the point of never sending out a release.

So, as with anything in life, it's a question of balance. In this case, business needs (timely revenue/ROI) vs. product quality. As I've pointed out elsewhere, each successive CA release has been worse on the product quality. Sadly, this one sets a new low water mark.

[gollum]

Hello MikeV,
that paragraph you quoted was taken out of context - it was a reply to someone elses post that has nothing to do with what you post here.

Out of curiosity since when did you started playing TW and did you play mp as well as sp?

[MikeV]

Hello MikeV,
that paragraph you quoted was taken out of context - it was a reply to someone elses post that has nothing to do with what you post here.

Point taken, sorry.

Out of curiosity since when did you started playing TW and did you play mp as well as sp?

I started with the original Shogun, and have tried every version and expansion since (except Alexander). I modded my copies of R:TW and M2:TW to do AORs and building trees more to my liking.

I've only ever used SP mode, and spent the vast majority of my time on the strat map. I've never enjoyed FPSs, MMO frag fests, or any of that sort of stuff. Chalk it up to being a 3-decade grognard, I guess.