Not flaming Ca

[gellis23]

Not flaming the guys who have created a brilliant game. Would I pay double for the campaign, yes I would.

Got to have a slight moan though:

Steam. Nothing for me, plenty for you. I don't won't this memory resident software.

"Special forces". This is an add -on released at the same time as the game (I bought it) but left a bad taste in my mouth. Why? Is £35 not enough for you?

I am sure others have said this but just needed to put my two-penneth in.

CA, I love your games but don't take me for granted. I have friends who have not bought because of Steam.

regards

[Didz]

Yeah! I have to concur here, something has gone badly awry at CA, and I suspect its all down to bullying by SEGA.

First, of all we the customers were forced to accept an officially sanctioned piece of spyware being embedded on our computers by Medieval Kingdoms before we were allowed to play the game. This spyware is actually sold separately by SEGA to other game producers with the promise that it can be programmed to gather any marketing data they want on their customers, and has also been embedded in other games like Bioshock. Now we find we are forced to download another invasive piece of software to play this game.

I don’t blame CA for this, but if you play with sharks expect to get bitten. I find it sad that such a good company has fallen under the influence of such an immoral one.

[Heinrich VI]

I don't mind Steam at all. I am using it since 2003 and never had any problems. The Special Forces Editions on the other hand are a bad marketing idea imho. The game as a low unit diversity as it is. Why spread out a handful of unique units to different versions and charge extra for it. Hopefully they will add those units to all game versions later on.

But what really angered me is the state of the released game. How could this pass testing and go gold? I know the publisher putting pressure on the developer, they have no choice - granted. But this bugfest sets a new low even by CAs poor track record for buggy (but at its core great) games...

EDIT:

Remember when everyone was blaming Activision for putting pressure on poor CA and not allowing them to properly patch their game (RTW and the infamous save load bug comes to mind)? And the cheering when SEGA took over and everyone was oh so hopeful that it would all change for the better? Seems like there is not much difference between those two publishers after all.

[gollum]

Originally posted by Didz
Yeah! I have to concur here, something has gone badly awry at CA, and I suspect its all down to bullying by SEGA.

First, of all we the customers were forced to accept an officially sanctioned piece of spyware being embedded on our computers by Medieval Kingdoms before we were allowed to play the game. This spyware is actually sold separately by SEGA to other game producers with the promise that it can be programmed to gather any marketing data they want on their customers, and has also been embedded in other games like Bioshock. Now we find we are forced to download another invasive piece of software to play this game.

I don’t blame CA for this, but if you play with sharks expect to get bitten. I find it sad that such a good company has fallen under the influence of such an immoral one.

Mike Simpson (CA Studio director) actually many times said in the press that CA are delighted by the fact that SEGA bought them, simply because of the stability and security that this move brought. In essence they are an in-house developer for SEGA and this means they have a greater decision freedom/stability-safety ratio. Word for word he said *Its great that we dont have to worry where from tomorrows meal will be coming from* or something to that effect (PC gamer/Spring 2008 me thinks).

As such, branding SEGA *immoral* and CA *such a good company* is with all due respect childish.

Steam is used by many other games/companies and has plenty of potential for the TW mp game too.

[Veresov]

I for one hold the game developer CA responsible for delivering a quality product. In business people work all the time with deadlines and there is NO excuse for delivering an inferior product. I find it amazing that some users are happy with substandard products and grateful that they got what they got. I guess that is why used car salesmen are still successful.

[gollum]

Originally posted by Veresov
I for one hold the game developer CA responsible for delivering a quality product.

Hello Veresov,
Maybe you mean holding them responsible for not delivering a quality product?

[Kaidonni]

I for one hold the game developer CA responsible for delivering a quality product. In business people work all the time with deadlines and there is NO excuse for delivering an inferior product. I find it amazing that some users are happy with substandard products and grateful that they got what they got. I guess that is why used car salesmen are still successful.

I think you'll find that more often than not the people at the top, the suits, have very little comprehension of game development beyond the fact it can bring them money, and lots of it, too. One forum I visit, CG Society, has a thread dedicated to the idiocy some people come out with, and plenty of times, the bosses have turned out to be total morons. Seriously. Not giving relevant information, placing unrealistic deadlines, thinking it's all magic, that sort of thing. I suspect pretty much this has happened with the recent Total War games. The people on the shop floor do their darned best, but they can only do so much with some of the very much ridiculous restraints and pressures put on them. At the end of the day, if they can't get something done, they really haven't been allowed enough time, because that is what it takes - time. Unless a company is it's own publisher as well as developer, like Valve (with the Half Life games and Portal, to name but a limited number of games they've produced), then that company will face problems. And yes, you might think that the people running companies should have an idea about making games, but they don't - sometimes, the people assigned to running the shop floor don't always have what it takes, yet their word is gospel, you have to do what they say.

The state of the gaming industry will be determined by the attitude of the people at the top, the suits. If they want something, it's money, and they will get it, or your company could easily be finished, and the lives of your employees. It is sad, yes, but unless people vote with their feet by the tens of thousands, expecting only the best of titles like Total War, the people on the shop floor will remain slaves to the machine that is ignorance and greed combined.

CA have basically done the best they can under the circumstances, and in an economic downturn, they won't want to argue with any of their bosses because that can mean disaster. Their bosses probably won't understand anyway, and will wonder where the 'Make Campaign Map' button is and why no one has used it yet (disturbingly, that is a very realistic possibility with some people).

[gollum]

Hello Kaidonni, how come you left MTW to make the jump to ETW?

Originally posted by Kaidonni
I think you'll find that more often than not the people at the top, the suits, have very little comprehension of game development beyond the fact it can bring them money, and lots of it, too. One forum I visit, CG Society, has a thread dedicated to the idiocy some people come out with, and plenty of times, the bosses have turned out to be total morons. Seriously. Not giving relevant information, placing unrealistic deadlines, thinking it's all magic, that sort of thing. I suspect pretty much this has happened with the recent Total War games. The people on the shop floor do their darned best, but they can only do so much with some of the very much ridiculous restraints and pressures put on them. At the end of the day, if they can't get something done, they really haven't been allowed enough time, because that is what it takes - time. Unless a company is it's own publisher as well as developer, like Valve (with the Half Life games and Portal, to name but a limited number of games they've produced), then that company will face problems. And yes, you might think that the people running companies should have an idea about making games, but they don't - sometimes, the people assigned to running the shop floor don't always have what it takes, yet their word is gospel, you have to do what they say.

OR you can still accept the risks and stay independent - but not everyone is 28 or 34 for ever. People have mortgages and wife and kids to feed and some admittedly ambitions of grandeur that take far more than wife and kids. But this is the real world. And those that wish it better, start their own mods or their own game companies even or at the very least - they boycott effectively instead of hanging around the same scene for 9 years only just complaining. I am sure that the *suits* are laughing sardonically at such threads because, despite their *idiocy* they are smart enough to figure out that pc game fans complaining is a sort of a vice in many cases (not all). In other words it feels good. I would go as far to say that they consider it a good sign

The state of the gaming industry will be determined by the attitude of the people at the top, the suits. If they want something, it's money, and they will get it, or your company could easily be finished, and the lives of your employees. It is sad, yes, but unless people vote with their feet by the tens of thousands, expecting only the best of titles like Total War, the people on the shop floor will remain slaves to the machine that is ignorance and greed combined.

Well thank God then that we talk about the game idustry and not any other vital one - it isnt exactly the end of the world if people that make decisions there are corrupt and greedy. At the most we ll have to stop playing games. Hardly significant loss - or not?

CA have basically done the best they can under the circumstances, and in an economic downturn, they won't want to argue with any of their bosses because that can mean disaster. Their bosses probably won't understand anyway, and will wonder where the 'Make Campaign Map' button is and why no one has used it yet (disturbingly, that is a very realistic possibility with some people).

CA have been *doing their best* eversince 2004 that they ve discovered that releasing a game with 100 times more bugs than up to then, with 100 more features that the AI cant use than up to then, 100 times less playtested than up to then, but with a 100 times better graphics than up to then, made the fanbase 100 times bigger than up to then

Now please expand...

[The_Reckoning]

I think the problem is the game industry/game journalism industry corruption. Spore was reviewed and got many 9/10s. That's enough to prove something's wrong.

When people stop trusting these liars, and rely only on word of mouth and forum feedback, then we'll see an improvement in the quality of games. As it is now, reviewers suck up to the games companies because otherwise their magazine/website has advertising pulled. So publishers can just boot a game out onto the shelves and they know if it's so hotly anticipated at E:TW was, it'll still bring in good reviews.

Unfortunately it'll be a while before people learn not to be such blind sheep.

[Kaidonni]

Gollum: Actually, I don't have ETW. Won't be getting it for a while, if ever. Bad experience with Stalker: Clear Sky, you see.

[gollum]

Originally posted by The_Reckoning
I think the problem is the game industry/game journalism industry corruption. Spore was reviewed and got many 9/10s. That's enough to prove something's wrong.

When people stop trusting these liars, and rely only on word of mouth and forum feedback, then we'll see an improvement in the quality of games. As it is now, reviewers suck up to the games companies because otherwise their magazine/website has advertising pulled. So publishers can just boot a game out onto the shelves and they know if it's so hotly anticipated at E:TW was, it'll still bring in good reviews.

Unfortunately it'll be a while before people learn not to be such blind sheep.

Hello The_Reckoning,
Well these *liars* are there for that reason precisely - however they do have a function - and that function is to review all titles not just the big ones. So instead of giving the responsibility to them why dont we turn the light right back to where it belongs ie to us the fans? How many of us buy games that have a good AI, take time to learn, are well thought out and balanced, have good support but lack a brand name and graphics? How many know about Les Grognards (http://www.battlefront.com/products/les_grog/) or 2nd Manassas (http://madminutegames.com/)? The people that develop them were amateurs like you and me that turned developers undergoing the risk of bankruptcy in the process. So?

Not many i presume... and why? Because they are for hardcores, boring etc etc etc. So now lets go all back to complain about CA/SEGA and after that play some more ETW, before we log back in to complain some more...

[gollum]

Hello Kaidonni, i see. Imho ETW is better than RTW/M2TW - however it isnt even on a par with MTW.

[Tsavong]

I for one hold the game developer CA responsible for delivering a quality product. In business people work all the time with deadlines and there is NO excuse for delivering an inferior product. I find it amazing that some users are happy with substandard products and grateful that they got what they got.

Substandard compared to what? All software has bugs the bigger the software the more it is likely to have bugs in it. Just look at how often windows is updated. And Empire is a big bit of software which is a quality bit of work its just a shame due to time money and the size of it they could not sort out all the ruff edges but it is still playable.
Lets compare it to say CoD 4 that needs 8GB compared to Empires 15GB Its single player is a liner scripted campaign where as empire is much more complicated and less scripted and I've still had bugs and crashes in CoD 4 and it has still had patches.

I guess that is why used car salesmen are still successful.

I guess you are ether not old enough to have a car or rich enough not to worry about the cost of one. A well looked after car can last for years my sister has a 15 year old Nissan that has done 120k miles and is still going strong and it only cost her £500 she got a good deal for her 1st car I say.

And lastly new cars have problems too, need software updates and parts replaced etc.

I for one am enjoying playing Empire total war at the mo.

[quadalpha]

Maybe we should sticky one of the rant threads and avoid the repetition.

[gollum]

Originally posted by quadalpha
Maybe we should sticky one of the rant threads and avoid the repetition.

A dangerous proposition - complain threads especially early in a release spread like mushrooms, and actually for whatever reason people are complaining (bugs, dissapointment or for the sheer hell of it) its one of the things a forum is about. It is a good way out for the fans in case things are really wrong (and even if they arent ) and a good gauge for the developer too.

Closing that route - would make the fanbase like a pressure cooker without a release valve

[Didz]

As such, branding SEGA *immoral* and CA *such a good company* is with all due respect childish.

Well sorry but how else do you describe a company that embeds Securom spyware into its products and then sells that spyware and the ability to code it to third parties.

Of course SEGA and its customers (like EA) don't tell you when you install one of their games that you are actually embedding a spyware program into your PC, that cannot be uninstalled again, even if you uninstall the game. That might put you off buying their product, instead they just slip it on the disk secretly so you will never realise its there unless it starts messing up your system, and even then you wouldn't know to blame Securom because you don't even know its there. The fact is everyone reading this forum probably has it embedded on their PC, and it does interfere with your system, as several class action suits against SEGA and EA have already shown.

You can find out more about this secret application which is embedded in your PC here http://www.securom.com, but its what this site doesn't tell you which is more interesting and worrying.

In the early days SEGA were quite bullish about using Securom on their products. They were so excited about this new era in game security and marketing that when you visited their website you could actually access and read SEGA's own marketing 'blurb' about the benefits of using this product for game publishers.

Since the class action suits SEGA have become a bit more secretive about advertising what Securom is capable of doing, and unless you actually buy the product you can't read about its full potential on their website, as its hidden behind 'customer only' restictions.

However, the main benefit they were peddling in the early days was that Securom comes with the potential to be coded by the customer who purchases it to 'gather any marketing information you consider relevant to your market and products' and 'to vary the content and nature of that data gathering over time as your marketing interests change'. The package necessary to code Securom was sold as a seperate ancillary product and came with the ability to update the Securom software already embedded on the PC's of your customers at any time.

Note: This ability is NOT limited to simple data gathering. If you read the class action suits you will see that Securom also has the potential to be used to prevent the customer running any application that the company owning the access rights to the software decides their customers should not be allowed to use. Eldridge lists a few that EA chose to inhibit, but effectively the list is only limited by the the coder, and could vary according to the desires of each Securom customer and over time.

In effect, not only is Securom a piece of spyware, but it has the potential to be a trojan horse which has its own key to bypass all your PC security programs. All it actually needs is for one game publisher who has purchased the marketing expansion from SEGA, to employ a dodgy coder, or allow someone to steal their access protocols and we could find Securom being used as a certain way of loading mailicious programs onto our PC's.

Now you can call me childish, for labelling the decision to not only use but sell this software immoral. Personally, I would say that it was not only immoral but criminal, and I'm not alone in this view as the following transcripts of the class action suits already lodged in the US show.

Eldridge-vs-EA

Cortez-vs-EA

[Quickening]

I think the problem is the game industry/game journalism industry corruption. Spore was reviewed and got many 9/10s. That's enough to prove something's wrong.

When people stop trusting these liars, and rely only on word of mouth and forum feedback, then we'll see an improvement in the quality of games. As it is now, reviewers suck up to the games companies because otherwise their magazine/website has advertising pulled. So publishers can just boot a game out onto the shelves and they know if it's so hotly anticipated at E:TW was, it'll still bring in good reviews.

Unfortunately it'll be a while before people learn not to be such blind sheep.

Quoted for truth but I also agree with Gollums assertion that the responcibility should rest with the buyer themselves although lets face it, it's too much to ask people to think for themselves.
It's a sad state of affairs when you can guess the kind of score a game will get in major publications the moment it is announced but trust me, you can. I've been doing it for years. I knew that Empire: Total War would get rave reviews just like you can predict shallow tat like Spore getting rave reviews because the "innovation" of such games is hyped so much that by the time the review comes the reader has already bought it. Black and White was a great example of such a game. I'm not saying it was bad, but by God did the mainstream go mad over this thing in the day and although an enjoyable game it wasn't exactly the work of genius it was claimed to be.

Now as it happens, I love Empire and I've been fortunate enough to not have any problems aside from being unable to install from the second DVD. But on the matter of CA... I just don't know. I don't buy this "evil publisher ruling with an iron fist over the peasant developers who toil away alturistically" thing. The fact of the matter is that we've had this same experience time and again with this series and some people will always blame the publisher. They may well be a factor but I really doubt it's as simple as that. We just don't know.
As for CA being publically pleased having Sega as their publisher, well, they aren't exactly going to come out and say "yeah these guys suck, this will be a testing time"

[The_Reckoning]

Not many i presume... and why? Because they are for hardcores, boring etc etc etc. So now lets go all back to complain about CA/SEGA and after that play some more ETW, before we log back in to complain some more...

The thing is E:TW would be an amazing game, if it were finished. I'm sure those games are fun, and maybe have awesome AI, but they're not Total War. If TW was just a battle simulator I'd probably not have played it.

It's the interplay between campaign map strategy and battles which makes the games fun and unique. It's not just a battle to kill the enemy, it's a battle where the consequences of losing mean that all the hard work on the strategy map pay off; the one which will put your rival out of the game, or the one which will mean your nation is done for.

E:TW is practically unplayable for me. I enjoy commanding the few pivotal battles, and spending the rest of the time on the campaign map. With so many aspects of the game in a beta state I can't play it. And it's not just for hardcore players, if it has good AI. It's about creating pivotal moments, they're the parts people enjoy. Some people are just too dumb to notice that when the AI's horrible, it makes no difference how well they do. Some enjoy the one-sidedness, where they don't have to do anything right to take over the world in the game. Where it's just a case of how qucikly they can do it, without a chance that the tables would be turned and they fail.

That's why multiplayer is so much more fun in most games, because you get comebacks, surprise tactics and innovation.

Why I blame the journalists, is if the corruption didn't exist, if they made their money being brutally honest and ripping games to shreds, like Yahtzee, rather than being fluffers for the publishing compaines who advertise with their media, then companies like SEGA would rather their dev. studios make the best product possible, the incentive to rush things would be massively reduced. They'd know that if their game came out and was so buggy as to be unplayable, they'd get bad reviews and bad sales.

It'd work the same way the restaurant industry works. You don't get bad food and well-reviewed restaurants, because critics are harsh, and make their names on being honest. The same of everything with a media complex surrounding it. The countries with the most liberal media are often the best governed.

[gollum]

Hello Didz,
you are preaching to the converted. All i tried to point out is not to let CA slip past the hook in your books. They know very well the game and play by the rules.

Hello The_Reckoning,
you are right mp has this advantage over sp - in case you are interested feel free to join the org ETW mp group;
http://steamcommunity.com/groups/etwmp

[Beskar]

I think a point is, who has actually used the special forces units?

I certainly haven't, they are subpar to my other choices. They do nothing for the game for me, just a waste of space on the UI.

[gollum]

Originally posted by Quickening
As for CA being publically pleased having Sega as their publisher, well, they aren't exactly going to come out and say "yeah these guys suck, this will be a testing time"

Hello Quickening,
Actually CA in the past have made it publicly known that their previous publisher Activision wasnt all that good to them. They havent done it a single time yet with SEGA though and there are many reasons to believe that they are genuinely happy with them.

[Veresov]

Just for the record Zerg,

I can't even play Empire because of all the well documented hardware incompatibilities. It is not a minor bug when you have sound issues and a consistent CTD after pressing the end turn button. I am one out of many, many users having problems. The technical help sections at the official forums are flooded with users unable to play this game. A gameplay bug is one thing but this is something absolutely unacceptable when you play for a game and can't play it.

Now perhaps you can understand why I review Empire as an unacceptably flawed product. I CAN'T EVEN RUN IT after several weeks of purchasing it and 3 patches to date! I hope now that you understand some of the hostility I have towards Creative Assembly and why I could care less about Sega, deadlines, ect. At the end of the day, Empire is an expensive coaster for me.

[gollum]

That sounds pretty bad Veresov,
good luck with it.

My advice for rule of thumb with TW games is never to buy before v2.0. And before you ask, yes that means not buying RTW/M2TW

[Fisherking]

For many of us Steam seems to be ok because it allows such quick updates.

The down side is you have to have them and you can’t go back if the fix causes some other problem to crop up.

All in all however, I have to say I like the way it is going.

The game has issues but it is getting fixed and the downloads from steam have been quick.

[CanCritter]

Hello Kaidonni, i see. Imho ETW is better than RTW/M2TW - however it isnt even on a par with MTW.

bottom line for me.....what Gollum said...at least with mtw units were responcive and went and did what ya told them to do...
had a calv unit chaseing a calv arty unit...in mtw l woulda had them dead...in etw they did everything but attack calv arty....across whole map they couldnt catch them or could l force them into a position to block......
anyway what Gollum said.......

[CanCritter]

dont know anything about steam.....yesterdays update was quick easy painless and not even noticed by most...brought everyones game stats up to par quicky without haveing to run around huntin a patch...guess this part has gotta be a good thing for us all




srry for 2 posts....just wakein up :O)

[gollum]

Hello CanCritter,
thanks for the kind words and i agree with you but there are few of us left now - the TW fanbase consist out of many people that never even played MTW. So its really a point of view between us and not for the community as a whole.



PS The Main Hall its still going strong for those left...

[CavalryCmdr]

Why do people continue to complain about this?

All software has bugs the bigger the software the more it is likely to have bugs in it.

It has been that way since computers started, the only difference now is the Net allows companies to release software with more bugs in it. On the other hand, a game (or any software of this magnitude) would probably not even have been attempted without that allowance. There is not a single piece of software available any ware that is "bug-free." such a thing dose not exist, and if you think it dose you simply have not found the bugs yet. The best you can hope for with any piece of software is continued support and patches. Though admittedly CA has been lax in that department and will be a valid platform for complaint when they stop supporting Empires, as it is that they stopped supporting M2.

I can't even play Empire because of all the well documented hardware incompatibilities.

Try testing any piece of software with all possible hardware combinations and let me know how far you get, costs aside it will be impossible. It is greatly disturbing they released it incompatible with some big names (such as NVidia,) I'll give you that, even so such big names are well known to be incompatible with any software that was not expressly made for it (ie "presented by Nvidia" logo, which of course, costs the software company money) that's how they make the money to become such a big name. For most hardware incompatibilities they have temporary workarounds that should at least allow the game to run until there are compatible drivers or patches that make the game compatible.

[MikeV]

Well thank God then that we talk about the game idustry and not any other vital one - it isnt exactly the end of the world if people that make decisions there are corrupt and greedy. At the most we ll have to stop playing games. Hardly significant loss - or not?

You mean, like Wall Street, which used the same practices, and the ongoing global financial market meltdown? That's not significant?

All software companies, not just game developers, are run by "suits," rather than by technically competent folks. On the other hand, the latter tend to fuss over and polish unimportant details to the point of never sending out a release.

So, as with anything in life, it's a question of balance. In this case, business needs (timely revenue/ROI) vs. product quality. As I've pointed out elsewhere, each successive CA release has been worse on the product quality. Sadly, this one sets a new low water mark.

[MikeV]

A dangerous proposition - complain threads especially early in a release spread like mushrooms, and actually for whatever reason people are complaining (bugs, dissapointment or for the sheer hell of it) its one of the things a forum is about. It is a good way out for the fans in case things are really wrong (and even if they arent ) and a good gauge for the developer too.

Closing that route - would make the fanbase like a pressure cooker without a release valve

A wise decision.