Not flaming Ca

**CavalryCmdr** · 03-26-2009, 19:39

Why do people continue to complain about this?

All software has bugs the bigger the software the more it is likely to have bugs in it.

It has been that way since computers started, the only difference now is the Net allows companies to release software with more bugs in it. On the other hand, a game (or any software of this magnitude) would probably not even have been attempted without that allowance. There is not a single piece of software available any ware that is "bug-free." such a thing dose not exist, and if you think it dose you simply have not found the bugs yet. The best you can hope for with any piece of software is continued support and patches. Though admittedly CA has been lax in that department and will be a valid platform for complaint when they stop supporting Empires, as it is that they stopped supporting M2.

I can't even play Empire because of all the well documented hardware incompatibilities.

Try testing any piece of software with all possible hardware combinations and let me know how far you get, costs aside it will be impossible. It is greatly disturbing they released it incompatible with some big names (such as NVidia,) I'll give you that, even so such big names are well known to be incompatible with any software that was not expressly made for it (ie "presented by Nvidia" logo, which of course, costs the software company money) that's how they make the money to become such a big name. For most hardware incompatibilities they have temporary workarounds that should at least allow the game to run until there are compatible drivers or patches that make the game compatible.

**MikeV** · 03-27-2009, 01:59

Originally Posted by CavalryCmdr

It has been that way since computers started, the only difference now is the Net allows companies to release software with more bugs in it. On the other hand, a game (or any software of this magnitude) would probably not even have been attempted without that allowance. There is not a single piece of software available any ware that is "bug-free." such a thing dose not exist, and if you think it dose you simply have not found the bugs yet. The best you can hope for with any piece of software is continued support and patches.

Your assertion is plausible for the old-fashioned, 20th Century, way of developing and publishing software. The critical issue is that there is not enough time and talent to work out all the (significant) bugs before release, and the folks are needed for the next project after the release.

However, the modern approach is to get as many eyeballs as possible on the code, and to spread the workload of finding and exterminating the bugs over as large a population as possible. Dare I say "open source"? A revolutionary notion, indeed -- 'way beyond simple modding via data changes.

**antisocialmunky** · 03-27-2009, 04:49

Originally Posted by MikeV

Your assertion is plausible for the old-fashioned, 20th Century, way of developing and publishing software. The critical issue is that there is not enough time and talent to work out all the (significant) bugs before release, and the folks are needed for the next project after the release.

However, the modern approach is to get as many eyeballs as possible on the code, and to spread the workload of finding and exterminating the bugs over as large a population as possible. Dare I say "open source"? A revolutionary notion, indeed -- 'way beyond simple modding via data changes.

Silly hippie, this is a comercial product.

What do you think open betas are for anyways? CA really should release one for the next game seriously, they should have learned by now that they can't stamp out all the bugs in house.

**CavalryCmdr** · 03-27-2009, 07:05

I concede that CA's past 2 releases (E:TW and M2) have seemed more of an "open beta" then a "commercial product."
Personally I don't mind, even an open beta would not track down so many bugs this quickly. So M2 was not a "finished product" until about 4 months after it was released (patch 1.2) but after that patch it turned out to be one pretty awesome game, IMO, and pretty darn fun to mod if I was bored of playing. For myself I have no problem going through the same thing again, so long as I get the same results, indeed that's why I bought the game the day it hit the shelves instead of waiting a couple months or reading "real" reviews. I also must say that E:TW is far more like a finished product then M2 was, so to me that's a step in the right direction.

**Durallan** · 03-27-2009, 07:40

Actually I think an open beta would probably fix most of the bugs, definetly those campaign stopping fleet clicking CTD ones! and those are the ones that make ETW an expensive coaster as well for now. and as far as I remember, I really don't remember Medieval 2 total war being this bad at the start, I could be wrong, but I don't remember having this kind of game stopping crashing bug which would end the game completely, I could be wrong, I mostly remember the bugs that ended battles that you were almost done with and won, more than campaign ending show stopping bugs.

I love the potential for ETW and I am glad that CA will fix these bugs eventually, but right now... I'm not overly impressed, I don't mind the bugs that are probably my fault, but those CTD's are just something you think they might have been able to pick up earlier...

**Vuk** · 03-27-2009, 10:20

I for one refuse to put STEAM on my computer. I had to buy a crappy $800 laptop for travelling (just so my good one would not be damaged), so I bought ETW and installed it on that. It is playable, but barely. I cannot install it on my beast gaming rig though, because I do not want STEAM on it. Now I am restricted to horrible performance and will never be able to enjoy the good graphics. The Special Forces Edition was just a way to milk the fans. I think SEGA needs a kick in the butt to be honest. These two things, as well as rushing the game out are my big complaints. I find the campaign fun (minus enormous load times, which on my laptop can be over 10 minutes - no exagerration), but the battles are ridiculous. The AI sends its crappy cavalry out at me way ahead of its other forces, lets me wipe it out in a volley, then splits its men into wacky and illogical groups and moves one unit forward a step, then the next unit forward a step, etc. So it ends up taking the 10 darned years to finally reach me (so as you can guess I have been doing all the attacking, even in defense battles :P). The will put thier men in front of cover instead of behind it, so I just march a group of line infantry up behind them and wipe em out. :P Got quite a few other battlefield gripes, but suffice it to say, that I loath fighting my own battles now. :P The campaign map is still fun though. (though also bugged :P) I have a feeling that most of these issues would not be in the game if SEGA had not rushed development so that CA is working like frantic to finish the game a month after release. Let's put it like this, I got no problem with CA (except their historical inaccuracy, but I forgave them for 90% of that when I saw quotes from Edward Gibbon in the game

), but I really think they need a new publisher.

**Durallan** · 03-27-2009, 14:21

why won't you put steam on your gaming beast?

**The_Reckoning** · 03-27-2009, 23:42

@Vuk

Why the hell don't you want Steam? It's a brilliant program. Do you realise how many games are only sold over it now?

If it were flawed in any way then don't you think there'd be a massive amount of complaints?

**Melvish** · 03-27-2009, 18:36

Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

Silly hippie, this is a comercial product.

What do you think open betas are for anyways? CA really should release one for the next game seriously, they should have learned by now that they can't stamp out all the bugs in house.

I think you should document yourself a bit before throwing "pseudo insult"
Agile Unified Process
Agile software development
Who's Your Coding Buddy?
Real Ultimate Programming Power

Open Source approach had a great influence over the programming techniques in the last 10 years.

It look like Steam has a perverted negative influance over patch deployment for ETW. Yes it's easy to deploy patch but since it so easy to deploy, it look like less quality control was done. That would make a great Dilbert cartoon

**MikeV** · 03-28-2009, 04:34

Originally Posted by Melvish

Open Source approach had a great influence over the programming techniques in the last 10 years.

It look like Steam has a perverted negative influance over patch deployment for ETW. Yes it's easy to deploy patch but since it so easy to deploy, it look like less quality control was done. That would make a great Dilbert cartoon

Good point!

I doubt we'll ever see this code open-sourced, unless it's about to become abandonware. And, I'm not sure it's in any shape to be refactored easily. Given some of the chronic bugs that have lingered since R:TW, I'm not optimistic.