Results 1 to 30 of 53

Thread: Playing as a Muslim Faction

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Minion of Zoltan Member Roark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    961

    Default Re: Playing as a Muslim Faction

    Janissary Archers are probably the most pointless unit in the game. There is nothing they can do that some other unit can't do better, and they have absurd training reqs. I doubt that there'd be anyone on this forum who has even trained one...

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandy Blue View Post
    *snip*...your fancy Nizaris and Janissary Infantry. Of course those other units are great too, just in different ways.
    Agreed. Nizaris are great in every way that involves slamming the flank of a rock-hard army and sending them all squealing like bedwetting Mama's boys.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Playing as a Muslim Faction

    Hello BB,
    JAs are theoretically faster to tech up to since they only require the master bowyer that you can build on the Citadel level, while the JI require the master swordsmith as well that needs the Fortress. They have decent melee stats for the occasional flanking and they can operate behind the main line inflicting casualties to the enemy in crucial units (Knights and the like) from afar.
    All in all the JAs are one of the best archer units in the game stats wise IIRC (together with the longbows that also have good melee stats and AP attack IIRC).

    The JI on the other hand melee units with a bow - their shooting abilities while welcome arent the essence - their melee abilities (that the Turks otherwise generally lack in their units) are.

    Generally after all Janissary units are available i make stacks with 2 JA 2 JI 2 JHI, plus whatever other.

    Last edited by gollum; 03-27-2009 at 14:33.
    The Caravel Mod: a (very much) improvedvanilla MTW/VI v2.1 early campaign

    Please make sure you have the latest version (v3.3)
    Since v3.3 the Caravel Mod includes customised campaigns for huge and default unit settings

    Download v3.3
    Info & Discussion Thread

  3. #3

    Default Re: Playing as a Muslim Faction

    Quote Originally Posted by gollum View Post
    They have decent melee stats for the occasional flanking and longer range than other archers IIRC that comes very handy in inflicting casualties to the enemy in crucial units (Knights and the like) from afar.
    I'm sure that JA are armed with the standard bow and not the longbow. The game only has three bows: The bow, mounted bow and longbow. The only unit with the longbow is the Longbowmen unit. The various Horse Archer types use mounted bow and all other units use the standard bow. The mounted bow is simply a less accurate version of the standard bow.
    Last edited by caravel; 03-27-2009 at 12:50.
    “The majestic equality of the laws prohibits the rich and the poor alike from sleeping under bridges, begging in the streets and stealing bread.” - Anatole France

    "The law is like a spider’s web. The small are caught, and the great tear it up.” - Anacharsis

  4. #4

    Default Re: Playing as a Muslim Faction

    Then IDRC (i didnt remember correctly)

    EDIT
    I am aware of the three bow types in vanilla - memory may be confused with Ghulam archers in Medmod that uses the same info card as the Ja and has indeed longer range.
    Last edited by gollum; 03-27-2009 at 13:14.
    The Caravel Mod: a (very much) improvedvanilla MTW/VI v2.1 early campaign

    Please make sure you have the latest version (v3.3)
    Since v3.3 the Caravel Mod includes customised campaigns for huge and default unit settings

    Download v3.3
    Info & Discussion Thread

  5. #5

    Default Re: Playing as a Muslim Faction

    I'm aware that you're aware of the three bow types in vanilla.

    The JA info pic is entirely wrong. The actual sprites on the other hand are very good and look how they're supposed to look. In reality factions like the Turks and Mongols should have had longbows from the start (to represent the powerful composite bows used by these peoples). In fact if you look at the internal naming of the mounted bow it is referred to as a "mounted longbow". This does point to CA originally intending to give the horse archer units decent bows - though this would have made them far too dangerous.

    I've never found any use for JA either. Of the Janissaries I mostly train JI.
    Last edited by caravel; 03-27-2009 at 13:48.
    “The majestic equality of the laws prohibits the rich and the poor alike from sleeping under bridges, begging in the streets and stealing bread.” - Anatole France

    "The law is like a spider’s web. The small are caught, and the great tear it up.” - Anacharsis

  6. #6

    Default Re: Playing as a Muslim Faction

    I'm aware that you're aware that i was aware of the three bow types in vanilla

    Originally posted by Caravel
    The JA info pic is entirely wrong. The actual sprites on the other hand are very good and look how they're supposed to look. In reality factions like the Turks and Mongols should have had longbows from the start (to represent the powerful composite bows used by these peoples). In fact if you look at the internal naming of the mounted bow it is referred to as a "mounted longbow". This does point to CA originally intending to give the horse archer units decent bows - though this would have made them far too dangerous.
    Indeed - actually many units in the info pic are shown with composite bows and others like the Tribizond archers are mention to carry composite bows in the UnitInfo text. It would have been great to give them some extra attribute in order to allow their factions them to play without crossbows/arbalests.



    EDIT
    Ironically for the Trebizond Archers the opposite is true - the InfoPict is right and the sprite is awful and wrong. The PoM adressed that quite well.
    Last edited by gollum; 03-27-2009 at 14:34.
    The Caravel Mod: a (very much) improvedvanilla MTW/VI v2.1 early campaign

    Please make sure you have the latest version (v3.3)
    Since v3.3 the Caravel Mod includes customised campaigns for huge and default unit settings

    Download v3.3
    Info & Discussion Thread

  7. #7

    Default Re: Playing as a Muslim Faction

    Quote Originally Posted by Roark View Post
    Agreed. Nizaris are great in every way that involves slamming the flank of a rock-hard army and sending them all squealing like bedwetting Mama's boys.

    In those simple times there was a great wonder and mystery in life. Man walked in fear and solemnity, with Heaven very close above his head, and Hell below his very feet. God's visible hand was everywhere, in the rainbow and the comet, in the thunder and the wind. The Devil too raged openly upon the earth; he skulked behind the hedge-rows in the gloaming; he laughed loudly in the night-time; he clawed the dying sinner, pounced on the unbaptized babe, and twisted the limbs of the epileptic. A foul fiend slunk ever by a man's side and whispered villainies in his ear, while above him there hovered an angel of grace . . .

    Arthur Conan Doyle

  8. #8

    Default Re: Playing as a Muslim Faction

    Tell me - how do these little holy-warmongers fare when they are fighting in... Tyrol, for example?

    It is not as silly a question as it sounds; once a muslim power is risen in the east, can they easily conquer central Europe?
    I have never seen it happen.
    Last edited by caravel; 03-28-2009 at 00:27. Reason: keep politics and religion in the backroom please

  9. #9

    Default Re: Playing as a Muslim Faction

    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn View Post
    Tell me - how do these little holy-warmongers fare when they are fighting in... Tyrol, for example?

    It is not as silly a question as it sounds; once a muslim power is risen in the east, can they easily conquer central Europe?
    I have never seen it happen.
    The muslim factions can fare well in Europe when controlled by the player. The AI muslim factions usually do less well, because they cannot compete in autocalced battles against high and late era catholic units.

    “The majestic equality of the laws prohibits the rich and the poor alike from sleeping under bridges, begging in the streets and stealing bread.” - Anatole France

    "The law is like a spider’s web. The small are caught, and the great tear it up.” - Anacharsis

  10. #10

    Default Re: Playing as a Muslim Faction

    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn View Post
    It is not as silly a question as it sounds; once a muslim power is risen in the east, can they easily conquer central Europe?
    I have never seen it happen.
    Really? I see the Almos do it all the time. Turks tend to get massacred in every campaign. Because the simulated battles only account for meele stats and the turks are very dependant on hybrids (hello, heavy Jedi katatank purple army thingies)?

    About the JA. Only reason I see for choosing them over JI is that they're cheaper. But the tactical advantages of having JI instead of JA are quite huge. So huge, as a matter of fact, that I would bet my house that you'll lose money on sheer troop production due to higher casualty rates if using JA rather than JI.

    Believe it or not - I prefer TFS to JA. Their support cost is significantly lower and at the point that you're using Jennies you should have a master bowyer in Anatolia (otherwise: start playing the sims instead). This means that you'll have a fast and armored (+ a small shield) archer unit with 1 atk and 4 def after +2 valor. Morale shouldn't be a factor either at this point. "Yeah, but you can only get these TFS from Anatolia!" So? You can only get JA from one province also - the one with the military academy. And, I might add, this will most likely not be Georgia (where you get a valor bonus to the JAs) but rather Rum or Constantinople. Bulgaria if you're truly bad ass.

    To fix this. Simple! JAs get the longbow and more ammo. That's as good incentive as any.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Playing as a Muslim Faction

    The Almoravids are exempt from this, being in the West.

    The Fatimids and the Turks, though I have seen them rise to supremacy in the holy land, have never in my campaigns sought conquest beyond the Aegean stables.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Playing as a Muslim Faction

    The Muslims suffer from poor stack composition - they could do well in autocalc and so in campaigns if that is fixed (by modding).

    Only the Almohads have AUM and MS from the Muslim factions ie decent melee units easily available (keep/Town_watch2). This is often why they fare better. In v1.1 the Almohads were often a true dinosaur devouring the Spanish quickly and then ravaging Europe. In VI its the other way around teh Spanish kill off the Almohads too quickly.
    Last edited by gollum; 03-28-2009 at 12:48.
    The Caravel Mod: a (very much) improvedvanilla MTW/VI v2.1 early campaign

    Please make sure you have the latest version (v3.3)
    Since v3.3 the Caravel Mod includes customised campaigns for huge and default unit settings

    Download v3.3
    Info & Discussion Thread

  13. #13

    Default Re: Playing as a Muslim Faction

    Quote Originally Posted by bondovic View Post
    Believe it or not - I prefer TFS to JA. Their support cost is significantly lower and at the point that you're using Jennies you should have a master bowyer in Anatolia (otherwise: start playing the sims instead). This means that you'll have a fast and armored (+ a small shield) archer unit with 1 atk and 4 def after +2 valor. Morale shouldn't be a factor either at this point. "Yeah, but you can only get these TFS from Anatolia!" So? You can only get JA from one province also - the one with the military academy. And, I might add, this will most likely not be Georgia (where you get a valor bonus to the JAs) but rather Rum or Constantinople. Bulgaria if you're truly bad ass.
    I couldn't agree more. I train a lot of TF and use them as my main archer units with Futuwwa as a backup/flanking unit. The best thing about TF is the armour and shield. This makes them great in defensive battles especially against the mongols with their numerous horse archers. Where Futuwwa or Desert Archers would soon fall under the constant volleys, the TF can stand their ground.

    “The majestic equality of the laws prohibits the rich and the poor alike from sleeping under bridges, begging in the streets and stealing bread.” - Anatole France

    "The law is like a spider’s web. The small are caught, and the great tear it up.” - Anacharsis

  14. #14

    Default Re: Playing as a Muslim Faction

    Granted that the availability of TF, together with the fact that they are the best (pure) archers in teh game, makes them more attractive than JA - however JA have much higher morale and will not run away when things get hot.

    The problem in vanilla with the Janissary units is that they all become available at the same time. Historically speaking the janissary corps evolved from pure archers to hybrid archers to an organised army with its own structure and command including arquebusiers, archers, heavy infantry.

    This is represented in the game with the three units the JA JI and JHI. All in all personally for me in vanilla both JA and JI are somewhat redundant since they are becoming available together with JHI. The Turks have plenty of other units in their stead and they only lack a heavy infantry unit really (and all the more if it can skewer armored+mounted targets).

    Imho its best to;
    mod JA in high only
    mod JI in high late
    mod JHI in late and make them 2 turn trainable.

    It would be nice also to give JAs longbows as in many other eastern missile units, reduce the lethality of arbalests and make them available in late only and make crossbows/arbalests available only to the Almohads (that lack bow units).

    Such an arrangement balances out the missile strengths/weaknesses between east and west and makes them more unique without cutting out potential.

    Last edited by gollum; 03-28-2009 at 14:49.
    The Caravel Mod: a (very much) improvedvanilla MTW/VI v2.1 early campaign

    Please make sure you have the latest version (v3.3)
    Since v3.3 the Caravel Mod includes customised campaigns for huge and default unit settings

    Download v3.3
    Info & Discussion Thread

  15. #15

    Default Re: Playing as a Muslim Faction

    Quote Originally Posted by gollum View Post
    Granted that the availability of TF, together with the fact that they are the best (pure) archers in teh game, makes them more attractive than JA - however JA have much higher morale and will not run away when things get hot.
    I've never found their morale to be a factor when trained in Anatolia with Ribat, Mosque and led by a decent general. They are not good in melee anyway (poor charge, poor melee and poor morale) so if the battle gets to the stage where they're fighting hand to hand, then you're doing something wrong. I don't see morale as the most important factor in archers either and the TF are really archers not hybrids like the Futuwwa, JI, OI and Nizari etc, despite their defence and armour.
    Last edited by caravel; 03-28-2009 at 15:08.
    “The majestic equality of the laws prohibits the rich and the poor alike from sleeping under bridges, begging in the streets and stealing bread.” - Anatole France

    "The law is like a spider’s web. The small are caught, and the great tear it up.” - Anacharsis

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO