Playing as a Muslim Faction

[bondovic]

It is not as silly a question as it sounds; once a muslim power is risen in the east, can they easily conquer central Europe?
I have never seen it happen.

Really? I see the Almos do it all the time. Turks tend to get massacred in every campaign. Because the simulated battles only account for meele stats and the turks are very dependant on hybrids (hello, heavy Jedi katatank purple army thingies)?

About the JA. Only reason I see for choosing them over JI is that they're cheaper. But the tactical advantages of having JI instead of JA are quite huge. So huge, as a matter of fact, that I would bet my house that you'll lose money on sheer troop production due to higher casualty rates if using JA rather than JI.

Believe it or not - I prefer TFS to JA. Their support cost is significantly lower and at the point that you're using Jennies you should have a master bowyer in Anatolia (otherwise: start playing the sims instead). This means that you'll have a fast and armored (+ a small shield) archer unit with 1 atk and 4 def after +2 valor. Morale shouldn't be a factor either at this point. "Yeah, but you can only get these TFS from Anatolia!" So? You can only get JA from one province also - the one with the military academy. And, I might add, this will most likely not be Georgia (where you get a valor bonus to the JAs) but rather Rum or Constantinople. Bulgaria if you're truly bad ass.

To fix this. Simple! JAs get the longbow and more ammo. That's as good incentive as any.

[PershsNhpios]

The Almoravids are exempt from this, being in the West.

The Fatimids and the Turks, though I have seen them rise to supremacy in the holy land, have never in my campaigns sought conquest beyond the Aegean stables.

[gollum]

The Muslims suffer from poor stack composition - they could do well in autocalc and so in campaigns if that is fixed (by modding).

Only the Almohads have AUM and MS from the Muslim factions ie decent melee units easily available (keep/Town_watch2). This is often why they fare better. In v1.1 the Almohads were often a true dinosaur devouring the Spanish quickly and then ravaging Europe. In VI its the other way around teh Spanish kill off the Almohads too quickly.

[caravel]

Believe it or not - I prefer TFS to JA. Their support cost is significantly lower and at the point that you're using Jennies you should have a master bowyer in Anatolia (otherwise: start playing the sims instead). This means that you'll have a fast and armored (+ a small shield) archer unit with 1 atk and 4 def after +2 valor. Morale shouldn't be a factor either at this point. "Yeah, but you can only get these TFS from Anatolia!" So? You can only get JA from one province also - the one with the military academy. And, I might add, this will most likely not be Georgia (where you get a valor bonus to the JAs) but rather Rum or Constantinople. Bulgaria if you're truly bad ass.

I couldn't agree more. I train a lot of TF and use them as my main archer units with Futuwwa as a backup/flanking unit. The best thing about TF is the armour and shield. This makes them great in defensive battles especially against the mongols with their numerous horse archers. Where Futuwwa or Desert Archers would soon fall under the constant volleys, the TF can stand their ground.

[gollum]

Granted that the availability of TF, together with the fact that they are the best (pure) archers in teh game, makes them more attractive than JA - however JA have much higher morale and will not run away when things get hot.

The problem in vanilla with the Janissary units is that they all become available at the same time. Historically speaking the janissary corps evolved from pure archers to hybrid archers to an organised army with its own structure and command including arquebusiers, archers, heavy infantry.

This is represented in the game with the three units the JA JI and JHI. All in all personally for me in vanilla both JA and JI are somewhat redundant since they are becoming available together with JHI. The Turks have plenty of other units in their stead and they only lack a heavy infantry unit really (and all the more if it can skewer armored+mounted targets).

Imho its best to;
mod JA in high only
mod JI in high late
mod JHI in late and make them 2 turn trainable.

It would be nice also to give JAs longbows as in many other eastern missile units, reduce the lethality of arbalests and make them available in late only and make crossbows/arbalests available only to the Almohads (that lack bow units).

Such an arrangement balances out the missile strengths/weaknesses between east and west and makes them more unique without cutting out potential.

[caravel]

Granted that the availability of TF, together with the fact that they are the best (pure) archers in teh game, makes them more attractive than JA - however JA have much higher morale and will not run away when things get hot.

I've never found their morale to be a factor when trained in Anatolia with Ribat, Mosque and led by a decent general. They are not good in melee anyway (poor charge, poor melee and poor morale) so if the battle gets to the stage where they're fighting hand to hand, then you're doing something wrong. I don't see morale as the most important factor in archers either and the TF are really archers not hybrids like the Futuwwa, JI, OI and Nizari etc, despite their defence and armour.

[gollum]

You are exactly right. Thats their achilles heel, like with all pure archer units. They unbalance the army composition (detract from average stack melee capacity). Thats why the JA are a plus in this point - after you make them emptry their quivers carefully (ie without participating directly in the missile duel and take many losses) you can use them as reserves. JA are meant as the cherry in the pie not bread and butter like TF/xbows.

TF on the other hand are made exactly for the missile duel as you say - because of the armor. Yet not only they cant melee after it but also they cant be used like crossbows/arbs that can dissuade enemy units from reaching them with mass coordinated volleys in the end phase.

They are a weak unit in that respect, and they need quite some teching up to get (Castle/bowyer3). Its only their cheap maintenance cost that still makes them useful in high as archer substitutes. But by high in vanilla, most (pure) archer units are semi-obsolete - xbows are cheaper to recruit and maintain and much more useful (volley mass/armor penetration). I recruit 1 or 2 units of archers in high per stack and 3-4 crossbows. Since the xbows work as the main missile component adding more missiles is only worth it if they can melee too. Hence prefer Nizaris and JA and much less Futuwas and TF.

[bondovic]

You are exactly right. Thats their achilles heel, like with all pure archer units. They unbalance the army composition (detract from average stack melee capacity). Thats why the JA are a plus in this point - after you make them emptry their quivers carefully (ie without participating directly in the missile duel and take many losses) you can use them as reserves. JA are meant as the cherry in the pie not bread and butter like TF/xbows.

I have a problem with this. The meele stats of the JA's are not terrific, especially when compared to the +2 valor TFS. Either way - to use them as "reserves", as you suggest, leaves a lot to the imagination. As flankers? Or anti-line infantry?

For flanking purposes the +2 valor TFS perform on par, I'd say, with the JAs because of their speed that makes up for a slightly lower atk value. But the bonuses to the atk value for a flanking unit are so rampant that even peasants make decent flankers against most but the heavier foes.

As for the other option - to use them as anti-line - I just never go there unless I really need to. Anyways, the JA are crap at this, just like the TFS are.

I think this started out as a debate on wether JAs are redundant due to the JI. If they use the same bow then, yes, they are. Because not only can the JI do everything that the JA can, but they can do a hell of a lot more. Even go anti-line.

[gollum]

Hello Bondovic,
thats exactly right, imagination - you name it, they (JA) do it; when your melee line is faltering they plug the gap, when the enemy line is faltering they give it a push to tip it over, when your general is fighting a vicious cavalry melee with some nasty knights/HC they flank the enemy and give him a breather, when the two sides are exhasted they sit a top a hill fresh and claim victory by a glorious downhil charge to the enemy tired and depleted infantry, when enemy slow heavy infantry is caught between them they shoot it before ambushing it (with the aid of TH or BGs), when conditions allow they do the occasional flanking and more according to the situation.

Your arguments about +2 valor on TF sound persuasive.

For my part i play a home-mod of vanilla that takes out all province valor bonuses, all armor bonuses all weapon bonuses and all morale bonuses so added valor isnt a factor. But thats just me.

You are right that JI make JA redundant when they appear in vanilla. Theoretically however you can tech up faster to JA and JHI that take the master bowyer and spearmaker that usually are built anyway. The JI need the full swordsmith building line too that takes a lot of time, is expensive and relatively useless for the Turks (other than for Futuwas that i am not particularly fond of due to their abominal defence). So you can stick with JAs and JHI combo as i do - just another way to combine the janissary units.