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    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Africa: Doomed or debilitated?

    Perhaps a debate about Africa will generate enough heat and opposing viewpoints to tempt old and new friends alike.

    We have recently touched on the subject tangentially and there are clearly significantly divergent views that do not necessarily align with the usual political beliefs of individuals. I'm not even sure we can agree on the key causes of that sad continent's malaise.

    To state my position, I cannot countenance the previously advocated variants of imperialism as I fundamentally believe that peoples cannot appreciate democracy and freedom until these are earned - peacefully, or otherwise. Imposing such values (and there is a discussion to be had, pertinent herein, that perhaps these are values exclusive the the western tradition and therefore not transferable without cultural imperialism) plants them into weak and shallow soil.

    Yet whilst the old imperial paternalism has largely been removed from Africa, haven't we just replaced it with economic imperialism? African produce is heavily protected against, as it is mainly agricultural. African resources are largely stripped out by non-domiciled multinationals, which facilitate the process by feeding the seemingly insatiable appetite of Africans at all levels for corruption. Or, corruption by our western standards - for many, this is the way business is done and perhaps we would be wrong to think otherwise.

    Having been a battleground for 19th century powers, Africa Independent rapidly became a battle ground for the Cold War. Some of the worst excesses of the "Revolution" and its proponents saw light in this benighted land, as well some of the least dignified projects of the Free World. We still happily sell vast amounts of arms into the continent whilst simultaneously throwing aid at the poverty occasioned from the fighting thus enabled. Sometimes, in a happy circle, the aid money comes back as payments for the arms shipments.

    My solution then, would be to exclude Africa entirely from the world economy until stable, secular democracies have taken root. (I define by the western measure as that is my position). That means no trade in or out, and no aid. The continent is big enough and diverse enough to be able to supply all its own needs, within itself, if the countries therein stabilise themselves enough to maintain trade links.

    Yes, the ensuing famines, wars and disasters will be devastating, but surely short-lived. Populations kept barely alive by aid and suppressed by arms shipments will surely overthrow the tyrants now deprived of their tanks and Swiss bank accounts. The agony will have an end, rather than the endless cycle of deprivation now seen.

    A continent of squabbling, prejudiced tribes managed after a thousand years, to become the Europe we know today. In the main, we had little external colonisation or interference. I submit that the African character - even more diverse - must be forged in a similar fire, by Africans themselves, through the appeal and adoption of their own extraordinary cultural heritage, so that they may cast a destiny as an equal partner in the modern world. It cannot be done by us. At present, like a despairing parent facilitating the drug abuse of their stubborn and unwilling child, we are just making the continent's problems worse - notwithstanding our happily profiting from its squalor and thus having quite an incentive for the basket case to keep injecting. We profit from the endless dying, and can console ourselves that we are good people too.

    I am however, keen to be proven wrong in my view.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Africa: Doomed or debilitated?

    Why is africa a mess (coming from one who lived there for six years)?
    1) a tribal culture
    2) a culture that condemns women to the periphery of society
    3) as a result of #2 a culture that allows men to treat sex as a harmless past-time inspite of HIV/Aids
    4) the western world erecting trade barriers against african goods
    5) as a result of #4 the remaining opportunity in africa being economic imperialism
    6) the USSR choosing to export the 'glorious' revolution to africa, causing it to become a cold-war battleground
    7) the divisive borders deliberately drawn by colonial powers to divide and conquer
    8) a persistant poverty caused by dependence on western aid

    What can be done about it?
    1) evolve past tribal limitations, it is not the end-point of african cultural development
    2) integrate women into society as more than just sexual playthings and producers of heirs
    3) quite blaming current uselessness on colonialism that ended at least two generations ago
    4) use the administrative methods and standards of governance that were imparted by colonial masters
    5) the western world should remove trade barriers
    6) stop the majority of aid programs
    Last edited by Furunculus; 03-26-2009 at 21:58.
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    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Africa: Doomed or debilitated?

    to bring back old members, all we need to do is bring up israel again.

    on the topic, i think Africa is debilitated, for many of the reasons that Furunculus mentioned.
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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Africa: Doomed or debilitated?

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    What can be done about it?
    1) evolve past tribal limitations, it is not the end-point of african cultural development
    2) integrate women into society as more than just sexual playthings and producers of heirs
    3) quite blaming current uselessness on colonialism that ended at least two generations ago
    4) use the administrative methods and standards of governance that were imparted by colonial masters
    5) the western world should remove trade barriers
    6) stop the majority of aid programs
    Of these, the only ones the rest of the world can do is 5&6- which we should do. Africa has to sort out the rest on its own.
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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re : Africa: Doomed or debilitated?

    I have never been able to answer the question 'why is Africa poor', or read a satisfactory explanation. I bump into two obstacles: explanations that are too large seldom do justice to the vastness and variety of the Continent. And seem more often than not rather unconvincing, even unscientific.
    And secondly, explanations that focus on a specific cause, or country / region, usually fail to take into consideration the plethora of failures of the continent. Surely, there can not be 17834 different causes, each one a specific cause for yet another failure?

    The first, the big macro explanations, fail to distinguish between the 'success' states (Botswana, South Africa, Ghana, Senegal) versus economic failures (Tanzania, Niger, Zambia) versus political corruption failure (Nigeria, Zimbabwe, Gabon, Equatorial Guinea), versus failed states (Somalia, Angola, Congo, Cote d'Ivoire, Sudan). Adding to the difficulty, is that states quickly change category in Africa. Twenty years ago, Zimbabwe was a succes story, and Ethiopia and Mozambique disasters. Currently it is the reverse.

    Explanations at micro level in turn, that do take this varietion into consideration, are so limited in scope that I intuitively feel that they must be only touching on direct causes, with a disregard for larger, ulterior causes of African failure.



    Failing to thus add much to this discussion, I shall leave with two remarks:

    The West does not rule the world anymore. It is not all that relevant in Africa anymore. China is colonising Africa at a rate that boggles the mind. The continent is completely overrun. China might be in the process of doing, in fact, what some have proposed the West ought to have done: re-colonise Africa. I, for one, am not convinced it will have a detrimental effect on Africa. A 'Chinese model junior' is exported to Africa: peace, stability and economic development, but at the price of disregard for ecological, democratic or human rights.


    A continent of squabbling, prejudiced tribes managed after a thousand years, to become the Europe we know today. In the main, we had little external colonisation or interference.
    This is Irish centrism. The South, the Southeast and the East of Europe have had extensive outside (non-European) interference and colonisation.
    For example, and for a fun fact: right up until the 19th century, Africa held millions of European slaves. To end this enslavement of Europeans, and to end continual African slave raids on France, was the main reason for France to assume control of the Barbary Coast (Algeria) in 1830 in the first place.
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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Africa: Doomed or debilitated?

    I think the first faulty assumption we make is that all countries in Africa fail and that they all fail for the same reason.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Africa: Doomed or debilitated?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    I think the first faulty assumption we make is that all countries in Africa fail and that they all fail for the same reason.
    agreed. i came from one of the success stories of post-colonial africa.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Africa: Doomed or debilitated?

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    agreed. i came from one of the success stories of post-colonial africa.
    Kenya?
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Africa: Doomed or debilitated?

    Malawi.

    it's gone downhill a bit since democracy arrived, but for the last half of the previous century it was remarkably stable, mostly uncorrupt, was exporting cash crops, and had a good education system.

    quite an achievement considering its neighbours were rife with civil-war and busy exporting AIDS riven refugees into the north of the country.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 03-26-2009 at 18:08.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    RIP Tosa, my trolling end now Senior Member Devastatin Dave's Avatar
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    Default Re: Africa: Doomed or debilitated?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Kenya?
    Well atleast one of Kenya's citizens is doing great right now and lives in a big White House!!!
    RIP Tosa

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    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Africa: Doomed or debilitated?

    Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost View Post
    My solution then, would be to exclude Africa entirely from the world economy until stable, secular democracies have taken root. (I define by the western measure as that is my position). That means no trade in or out, and no aid. The continent is big enough and diverse enough to be able to supply all its own needs, within itself, if the countries therein stabilise themselves enough to maintain trade links.
    Though part of me is attracted to this, I'd have to reject it. I also don't think it's workable in practice because new economic powers, mainly China (Mugabe is essentially a Chinese export, but that was a while ago), have discovered Africa as a market and are eager to exploit it and probably won't be persuaded.

    My ideas, vague as usual:

    1) remove all agricultural subsidies in developed countries
    2) review wich industries are making money in Africa and curtail those wich damage African economies in the long run
    3) offer African countries aid programs but only in exchange for clear and solid demands for institutional reform. We shouldn't give money to countries who can't be expected to clean up their act in the foreseeable future. Alleviating human suffering in the short run is noble but in itself won't encourage the government to do squat in the long run. Countries who don't qualify for aid will either reflect on their choices while they continue to stagnate or be forced to prostitute themselves for China.

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Africa: Doomed or debilitated?

    sorry for the necromancy, but this article is interesting and on topic:
    http://www.spiegel.de/international/...620268,00.html
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Africa: Doomed or debilitated?

    Careful. That link contains a picture which violates forum rules.


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