Well this is great,

[KarlXII]

Every military has their wierdos I guess.

It's pretty disturbing, mainly because I have not seen any other Western militaries adopt a similar type of shirt....

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Every so often somebody comes out with shirts that are similarly offensive. The military leadership in question always shoots down the idea. Why? Because its offensive, counterproductive, and contrary to good military discipline. Regrettably, there are always a few out there who would like to simplify things along the lines that Philip Sheridan stated.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

You can buy offensive t-shirts all over the internet, and I'm sure everyone from an Israeli soldier to a Hamas fighter to British MPs have worn them at some point in their lives. It seems to be much ado about nothing.

[rasoforos]

I read it some days ago that the IDF is investigating.

I think we are missing the point by trying to silence such expressions (i.e wearing the tshirt) but at the same time going to great lengths to remain inactive against the actions themselves (i.e a soldier killing civilians on purpose).


<--- And this does not only apply to the IDF.

[Yoyoma1910]

The U.S. Marines have some fairly brutal T Shirts...

[Furunculus]

doesn't matter that a soldier wears an offensive t-shirt

what matters is that the IDF is stamping down on this as such offensiveness is incompatible with its role.

[Husar]

Well, to me, I'm indifferent to it in that I wouldn't shed a tear if a soldier wearing one got killed, if you want to be an offensive *******, you have it coming. If these soldiers actually wanted peace, they wouldn't wear such T-Shirts.
That's where my concern ends, have fun getting blown up. Tada.

[tibilicus]

It's up to the soldiers, it's pretty much out of the armies control. Whilst I to have no sympathy if one of these sadistic soldiers die I don't really see what the IDF can do to counter it.

You can't control how people think.

[Furunculus]

i think you will find that squaddies the world over are renowned for having an inappropriate sense of humour. a t-shirt is nothing.

what counts is that the IDF as an organisation does not tolerate the wearing of such t-shirts.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

You lot saying that you have no sympathy of the "sadistic" soldiers in question die don't know if they really are sadistic. People wear inappropriate t-shirts. Most of you probably have on occasion. That doesn't mean you are sadistic.

[Hooahguy]

oh jeez.

[KarlXII]

You lot saying that you have no sympathy of the "sadistic" soldiers in question die don't know if they really are sadistic. People wear inappropriate t-shirts. Most of you probably have on occasion. That doesn't mean you are sadistic.

I can't answer for the other members, but I have never, and will never, own or wear a shirt that has a picture of crosshairs fixed on a pregnant woman.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I can't answer for the other members, but I have never, and will never, own or wear a shirt that has a picture of crosshairs fixed on a pregnant woman.

No, perhaps you won't. But many ordinary people do or have owned t-shirts that are offensive in some way, and the military is certainly no exception. Wearing the t-shirt doesn't mean he is going to go and kill pregnant women.

[Strike For The South]

I can't answer for the other members, but I have never, and will never, own or wear a shirt that has a picture of crosshairs fixed on a pregnant woman.

Why do you hate freedom?

[Yoyoma1910]

The closest thing to an offensive shirt that I have, or have ever worn is a blue tee-shirt with the words:


Happiness is a warm smurf.

Written across it. I apologize to John Lennon and all the smurfs out there.


(translation note: The Smurfs=Les Schtroumpfs)

[Yoyoma1910]

No, perhaps you won't. But many ordinary people do or have owned t-shirts that are offensive in some way, and the military is certainly no exception. Wearing the t-shirt doesn't mean he is going to go and kill pregnant women.

No, but it does mean you are glorifying it. Which shows poorly of both yourself and any organization you represent.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

No, but it does mean you are glorifying it. Which shows poorly of both yourself and any organization you represent.

Perhaps it does, but a soldier or two wearing an offensive t-shirt is still fairly meaningless.

[Husar]

You lot saying that you have no sympathy of the "sadistic" soldiers in question die don't know if they really are sadistic. People wear inappropriate t-shirts. Most of you probably have on occasion. That doesn't mean you are sadistic.

Wrong, I usually read what a T-Shirt or pullover says before buying it and these kinds of T-Shirts are usually bought because someone wants them for the message they have printed on them, not the kind of T-Shirt you find in every second clothing store.
Maybe they're not sadistic but then they're still idiots if they want peace.
And if they don't want peace, then what's the problem with them being blown up anyway? They wanted it in a way, didn't they?

I'm not saying it should be forbidden but I won't honour their coffins or post sad smileys if they find a dead guy with such a T-Shirt on, you get what you ask for, a very conservative principle I might add.

[Yoyoma1910]

Perhaps it does, but a soldier or two wearing an offensive t-shirt is still fairly meaningless.

No it is not. It is very meaningful, and reflects poorly on the entire society if it is allowed. People in the military are no longer independent citizens of their state. They do not have the same rights, nor the same freedoms of public vocabulary as civilians. Soldiers serve their country and it's people. Any action they take that shows poorly of themselves is a direct blemish on the nation as a whole.

[Furunculus]

it has not been allowed, and is being very vigorously enforced.

[Yoyoma1910]

it has not been allowed, and is being very vigorously enforced.

There you go.


Edit:


I realize it says this in the article. But the point, I guess, is that it is not a situation that should be ignored. Which, of course, it is not being.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

No it is not. It is very meaningful, and reflects poorly on the entire society if it is allowed. People in the military are no longer independent citizens of their state. They do not have the same rights, nor the same freedoms of public vocabulary as civilians. Soldiers serve their country and it's people. Any action they take that shows poorly of themselves is a direct blemish on the nation as a whole.

It is only meaningful if somebody makes a big deal out of it. Only a complete fool would think less of Israel or the IDF just because a soldier wore a t-shirt with an offensive message.

Wrong, I usually read what a T-Shirt or pullover says before buying it and these kinds of T-Shirts are usually bought because someone wants them for the message they have printed on them, not the kind of T-Shirt you find in every second clothing store.

That doesn't change my point.

Maybe they're not sadistic but then they're still idiots if they want peace.
And if they don't want peace, then what's the problem with them being blown up anyway? They wanted it in a way, didn't they?

They are doing their jobs in the military. Their clothing has absolutely no effect on how the jobs in question are carried out.

[LittleGrizzly]

Glorifying the deaths of innocents, acting completely innappropriately, why should it matter aslong as its not goverment condoned we shouldn't read anything into the actions of arab civilians...

Ooops... i of course meant Israeli soliders... anyone from a terrorist country doing it is terrible... our allys doing it is merely expressing freedom of speech...

[Yoyoma1910]

It is only meaningful if somebody makes a big deal out of it. Only a complete fool would think less of Israel or the IDF just because a soldier wore a t-shirt with an offensive message.

They would be right in thinking less of them if they allowed this action to occur without proper disciplinary action.

That doesn't change my point.

What is your point? That soldiers should be allowed the same individualistic freedoms as civilians? That wouldn't make a strong and well regarded organization.

They are doing their jobs in the military. Their clothing has absolutely no effect on how the jobs in question are carried out.

Obviously the Israeli military organization disagrees with you.

It does immensely. When members of a military organization insult other cultures, it greatly hinders their ability to perform actions within those cultures. Especially when tactics of soft diplomacy are used.

These shirts are threatening and insulting to a people that these soldiers must regularly interact with. Upsetting these people in this manner places their fellow soldiers at risk for retaliation.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

They would be right in thinking less of them if they allowed this action to occur without proper disciplinary action.

That is a matter of opinion.

What is your point? That soldiers should be allowed the same individualistic freedoms as civilians? That wouldn't make a strong and well regarded organization.

No, my point was rather that before criticizing these soldiers we are making a big deal about something relatively small.

Obviously the Israeli military organization disagrees with you.

They have little choice in the matter.

It does immensely. When members of a military organization insult other cultures, it greatly hinders their ability to perform actions within those cultures. Especially when tactics of soft diplomacy are used.

Fair enough, but really, how often are those t-shirts being worn over regular military equipment rather than just on base?

[Meneldil]

Perhaps it does, but a soldier or two wearing an offensive t-shirt is still fairly meaningless.

If a guy from Hamas was wearing a similar Tshirt you would be crying out loud, calling him a baby eater, a terrorist and an opponent of peace.

If it's a member of the IDF, it's alright and meaningless

Glorifying the killing of pregnant women is a shame. These people are a shame to their country and should be kicked out from the IDF. Period.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

If a guy from Hamas was wearing a similar Tshirt you would be crying out loud, calling him a baby eater, a terrorist and an opponent of peace.

No, as I've already said, I'm sure Hamas does it too.

[seireikhaan]

A horrifying, disgusting display. The soldiers in question should be expelled immediately. This goes beyond being merely offensive; its an act of complete and total moral depravity.

[KukriKhan]

No it is not. It is very meaningful, and reflects poorly on the entire society if it is allowed. People in the military are no longer independent citizens of their state. They do not have the same rights, nor the same freedoms of public vocabulary as civilians. Soldiers serve their country and it's people. Any action they take that shows poorly of themselves is a direct blemish on the nation as a whole.

I agree with this sentiment generally. It is the special contract societies forge with their designated protectors. Those protectors get special rights and privileges, but also special duties and responsibilities, and sacrifices.

Things get a little dicey when warriors are conscripts though, as in the IDF, instead of volunteers. I served in both draftee and volunteer armies. Convincing conscripts that they have lost some of their citizen's rights (to free speech, for example) is a constant, unpleasant task, that needs reinforcement often. And so, you get periodic "breakouts" of free-speech-gone-crazy, like these t-shirts.

Mind you, I'm just explaining, not condoning. Good leadership and basic unit discipline requires that the shirts, and the wearers be quashed, quickly. No question.

[Mongoose]

I don't really see this as totally meaningless. PR is a part of the Israel Palestine conflict, and while I'm sure that no one is going to join Hamas because they saw an offensive T-shirt, this definitely is not helping. This is sort of like showing up to a business meeting with a Jewish company wearing shirt saying "Hitler had the right idea".