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Thread: inuit lancers(!!)...
Hey, CA, come on... Inuit lancers!??? An ARMY of Inuit lancers(!!) in the polar freeze of Northern Labrador!??? Well, I quite understand that the CA tried to depict the fact that the Inuit's were much better accustomed for the snowfields of Northern Canada, but lancers(!!)... What did they feed their horses with? Moss? Seal fat?
There are other options (to make fighting Inuits more challenging) available too:
1) give the inuits (some historically more truthful version of their armed forces) huge defense/stamina/morale bonuses IF their armies are fighting in their native lands.
2) give the outsiders (the europeans) huge defense, stamina, morale PENALTIES if they are fighting in such harsh conditions as the Arctic OR the forests of Huron, Iroqouis, etc.
3) combine #1 & #2....
But lancers(!??), CANONS(!??), savages drilled in ligning up and marching!? If modders can easily implement AOR principles and realistic ethnic flavor, why cannot CA do the same?
As to lancers: is there ANY historic evidence that native Americans used ANY horse lancers at any point in time?
Sigh...
There are other options (to make fighting Inuits more challenging) available too:
1) give the inuits (some historically more truthful version of their armed forces) huge defense/stamina/morale bonuses IF their armies are fighting in their native lands.
2) give the outsiders (the europeans) huge defense, stamina, morale PENALTIES if they are fighting in such harsh conditions as the Arctic OR the forests of Huron, Iroqouis, etc.
3) combine #1 & #2....
But lancers(!??), CANONS(!??), savages drilled in ligning up and marching!? If modders can easily implement AOR principles and realistic ethnic flavor, why cannot CA do the same?
As to lancers: is there ANY historic evidence that native Americans used ANY horse lancers at any point in time?
Sigh...
No.... they didn't even have horses back then.
Nearly everything about the native factions is horribly inaccurate in ETW. I do not care for the North America theatre because of this.
Nearly everything about the native factions is horribly inaccurate in ETW. I do not care for the North America theatre because of this.
Well lets be fair, they did capture weapons from war, guns and cavalry, but not until late in the camipaign and certainly not with those tactics.
CA is the Baron Von Steuben and the French Government of 18th Century native factions! They're providing training and weapons!
As for natives capturing guns and other things from Europeans, what kind of training would they have had in firing a cannon? I'm not saying they're stupid- I probably would have no idea how to fire a cannon either, having never done it before. Also, where would they get more gunpowder/shot from?
Logical issues aside, I think giving native factions tech beyond their means levels the playing field (albeit in kind of a lazy, uncreative way, but CA did spend like YEARS on this game. I'm willing to give them that shortcut). It seems a little silly, but not quite as silly as steam ships in 1750 or Indian officers riding elephants into battle, so I'm willing to put it down to CA's usual quirkiness.
I don't think they ever set out to make a history simulator. They made a fun game instead. I'll take that tradeoff.
As for natives capturing guns and other things from Europeans, what kind of training would they have had in firing a cannon? I'm not saying they're stupid- I probably would have no idea how to fire a cannon either, having never done it before. Also, where would they get more gunpowder/shot from?
Logical issues aside, I think giving native factions tech beyond their means levels the playing field (albeit in kind of a lazy, uncreative way, but CA did spend like YEARS on this game. I'm willing to give them that shortcut). It seems a little silly, but not quite as silly as steam ships in 1750 or Indian officers riding elephants into battle, so I'm willing to put it down to CA's usual quirkiness.
I don't think they ever set out to make a history simulator. They made a fun game instead. I'll take that tradeoff.
Well, even before ETW was released we had in one screenshot a unit of what looked like Light Native Infantry formed up in rank and file with rigid European discipline.........
I don't even want to start on what has been done to the Maratha-Mughal units.......buuuuut this is an old issue......accuracy vs gameplay. CA keeps the balance fine alright.
I don't even want to start on what has been done to the Maratha-Mughal units.......buuuuut this is an old issue......accuracy vs gameplay. CA keeps the balance fine alright.
Here's hoping CA manages, in a later patch to rebalance the factions just a little, so at the very least the major Euro powers are tough opponents and the Huron and Cherokee cannot go toe to toe with the Grande Armee.
Surely, Inuit Lancers would use Polar Bears? :O
Reminds me of the Sami axemen from M2TW: Kingdoms. Wonder if a patch will add mounted reindeer archers. How about amphibious walrus-riders?
Well, we know they messed up the American Tribes.
I guess they think they are riding Icelandic Horses buy why don’t they get a navy of 32 gun kayaks?
I guess they think they are riding Icelandic Horses buy why don’t they get a navy of 32 gun kayaks?
Wait till you See the Inuit Heavy Lancers in the expansion 
Originally Posted by Fisherking:
Well, we know they messed up the American Tribes.
I guess they think they are riding Icelandic Horses buy why don’t they get a navy of 32 gun kayaks?
Then they can give a gun salute to their King!Well, we know they messed up the American Tribes.
I guess they think they are riding Icelandic Horses buy why don’t they get a navy of 32 gun kayaks?
Originally Posted by Subotan:
Surely, Inuit Lancers would use Polar Bears? :O
If I have to, I'll -pay- someone to model Polar Bears for the inuit. Surely, Inuit Lancers would use Polar Bears? :O
Originally Posted by 777Ares777:
Well lets be fair, they did capture weapons from war, guns and cavalry, but not until late in the camipaign and certainly not with those tactics.
Well, let's be fair: capturing a canon does not mean one knows how to use it (ballistics, for example) and has plentiful ammunition to practice ;)Well lets be fair, they did capture weapons from war, guns and cavalry, but not until late in the camipaign and certainly not with those tactics.
I hear Inuit people had a genius scientists who taught them how to shoot ice cubes. That solved nicely the ammunition issue.
I'm just shivering with expectation at the ETW expansion - Empire: Inuit Invasion!
After having united all the lands in the Americas, the mighty Inuit Horde launches its historically accurate conquest of Europe!
New regions - Includes feudal Japan, theatre of some of the most valorous feats of the Inuit Grande Armée!
New units - Seal clubbers, bear cavalry and dinosaure tamers!
New research - Such as Laser gun! PEW! PEW! PEW!
After having united all the lands in the Americas, the mighty Inuit Horde launches its historically accurate conquest of Europe!
New regions - Includes feudal Japan, theatre of some of the most valorous feats of the Inuit Grande Armée!
New units - Seal clubbers, bear cavalry and dinosaure tamers!
New research - Such as Laser gun! PEW! PEW! PEW!
And don't forget a special forces edition for the expansion, with elite dismountable polar bear cavalry that can even fight in the Sahara.
Originally Posted by india:
And don't forget a special forces edition for the expansion, with elite dismountable polar bear cavalry that can even fight in the Sahara.
Not only fight but they are also recruitable in Sahara! And don't forget a special forces edition for the expansion, with elite dismountable polar bear cavalry that can even fight in the Sahara.
Originally Posted by Slaists:
Well, let's be fair: capturing a canon does not mean one knows how to use it (ballistics, for example) and has plentiful ammunition to practice ;)
well, lets be fair, if they saw some weird European use it, they probably have an idea of how it works Well, let's be fair: capturing a canon does not mean one knows how to use it (ballistics, for example) and has plentiful ammunition to practice ;)
Originally Posted by 777Ares777:
well, lets be fair, if they saw some weird European use it, they probably have an idea of how it works
Including trajectory calculations and making their own shots? ;)well, lets be fair, if they saw some weird European use it, they probably have an idea of how it works
Originally Posted by 777Ares777:
well, lets be fair, if they saw some weird European use it, they probably have an idea of how it works
That doesn't explain how they managed to avoid destroying the gun by over charging it with powder {a problem for even some trained gun crews at the time} nor how they managed to get enough iron for the cannonballs {never mind should they somehow aquire grape} to even get in a bare minimum of practise , let alone enough for even one battle .well, lets be fair, if they saw some weird European use it, they probably have an idea of how it works
For a well documented theater and period of warfare that serves well as an illustration of the topic :
When the Maroi whom fought the British managed to capture cannons , they still had the problem of not knowing at first how to make gun powder . After they learned how to make the propellant , they then found they never had enough ammunition for a battle so had to use scrap metal and rocks which meant the weapon were nothing more than nusiance "weapons" that could only anoy and sometimes frustrate the Brits into charging the Moroi forts where in close combat the Moroi {the meme about Island Boys being rather beefy and good brawlers is actually based on fact} could match the better equipted British .
The problem also extended to muskets and rifles in that there was never enough ammunition {lead doesn't grow on trees , and stone-age technology cultures have little incentive to even know of the existance of lead intill they encounter higher technology peoples} .
This is what makes their achievements in the three major wars they forced the British Empire to fight with them so impressive , they really were always at a massive technological dissadvantage {as were the American Indians Vs all their European and U.S. opponents} .
Realistically , the American Indian native roster musket units should have only half the ammunition of their European counterparts {inluding the Native Auxiliary units as they would have been suppilied by their employers} and their cannon {which should be almost as rare as an honest politician} should not only have fairly limited ammunition and very poor accuracy and reload times , but also it might be best to create new sub-standard ammunition types for them . Their artilery capabilities generally sucked by a big margin and {compared to their European and U.S. opponents} continued to do so right up to the point when the last tribe was defeated .
Again , that they held on as long as they did deserves great respect .
To keep them a credible threat in the game , give their archers and musket men good melee , perhaps ballance their defense and attack a bit better {the European line infantry did not wear any armour , not even helmets -those things on their heads are made of thin felt or cloth- whereas some indians did -wood and bone and sometimes thick hide/cloth- and some would carry shields} so after the muskets limited ammo is gone they are still effective {they would have generally been some of the most formidable warriors of their tribe anyway to have aquired the muskets in the first place} and give their horsemen {which should not be found in Eskimo country !} a more realistic field of fire and the ability to fire on the move {same goes for horse archers and most mounted carbine and musket equipted units} .
Originally Posted by Mr Frost:
To keep them a credible threat in the game , give their archers and musket men good melee , perhaps ballance their defense and attack a bit better {the European line infantry did not wear any armour , not even helmets -those things on their heads are made of thin felt or cloth- whereas some indians did -wood and bone and sometimes thick hide/cloth- and some would carry shields} so after the muskets limited ammo is gone they are still effective {they would have generally been some of the most formidable warriors of their tribe anyway to have aquired the muskets in the first place} and give their horsemen {which should not be found in Eskimo country !} a more realistic field of fire and the ability to fire on the move {same goes for horse archers and most mounted carbine and musket equipted units} .
It is very bizarre that European line infantry are the superior melee warriors, while most non European factions can match them in ranged combat.To keep them a credible threat in the game , give their archers and musket men good melee , perhaps ballance their defense and attack a bit better {the European line infantry did not wear any armour , not even helmets -those things on their heads are made of thin felt or cloth- whereas some indians did -wood and bone and sometimes thick hide/cloth- and some would carry shields} so after the muskets limited ammo is gone they are still effective {they would have generally been some of the most formidable warriors of their tribe anyway to have aquired the muskets in the first place} and give their horsemen {which should not be found in Eskimo country !} a more realistic field of fire and the ability to fire on the move {same goes for horse archers and most mounted carbine and musket equipted units} .
For example, my chain mail clad Bhargir infantry can put up a great show at range, and most likely defeat European regiments since I will probably have researched better drills. Get them into melee, however, and they will lose.
You guys are getting it all wrong. They would ride moose into battle :p
Originally Posted by DisruptorX:
It is very bizarre that European line infantry are the superior melee warriors, while most non European factions can match them in ranged combat.
For example, my chain mail clad Bhargir infantry can put up a great show at range, and most likely defeat European regiments since I will probably have researched better drills. Get them into melee, however, and they will lose.
To be fair, though, heavier armor doesn't always mean a win in the melee. In fact, chain mail probably wouldn't do much good against a solid bayonet thrust, and getting smacked with a musket butt...well...It is very bizarre that European line infantry are the superior melee warriors, while most non European factions can match them in ranged combat.
For example, my chain mail clad Bhargir infantry can put up a great show at range, and most likely defeat European regiments since I will probably have researched better drills. Get them into melee, however, and they will lose.
That was a lesson the Ottomans learned the hard way in the Napoleonic era, when they were still fielding what were essentially medieval heavy cavalry.
Really, in this time period a breastplate is probably about as heavy as is wise to go. Everything else is just baggage, and making it heavy enough to stop pistol shot would be impractical...and since most cavalry carried at least a couple of pistols...well...
It's kinda like that scene in Indiana Jones.
For the native units, I was also quite dissapointed at the representation of Georgia and Dagistan. Both are probably the heaviest competition any Eastern player is going to get (Ottomans or Russians, they always seem to attack and produce massive armies (by early game standards) to do so.)
However, both of them field European line regiments. Dagistan gets some Eastern-style militia (Islamic Swordsmen, I think) but no other unique types of units.
And, you'll pardon me for saying so, but the idea of a central-asian khannate fielding European-style line regiments in 1700 is just about as silly as inuit lancers. Especially European-style regiments who dress exactly the same as everybody elses.
It kind of detracts from the pleasure of fighting in the area. You don't feel like you're up against a central asian state. You feel like you're fighting one of the other clone-armies of Europe.
The same goes for Georgia. While they were probably a bit better off than Dagistan, they couldn't defend themselves against PERSIA later on (although that is partially the fault of the Russians, who were supposed to defend them, but didn't) and ended up getting annexed by Russia with minimal effort.
Really, CA's presentation of most of the non-European factions is quite lazy, even in comparison to the rather lazy treatment of the Europeans themselves. The only ones which are really satisfying in their development are the Ottomans and Marathas. I'd say the Mughals, but from what I've seen they're essentially just green Maratha clones.
Originally Posted by Sheogorath:
snip
That is true. Armor does not mean superior melee ability. Bhargir's have substantially lower defense skills, as well, however. Not really complaining, since they obviously should be worse than European line, its just that they are notably worse in melee, not at range. snip
As for the eastern factions, I agree. And it is a great opportunity for the inevitable mods that will come out and flesh out the factions. Perhaps they will also change the Native American factions so that their warriors will have a loose formation like the Ottoman swordsmen do, rather than their absurdly ordered current state. And, of course, the subject of this threat.
The Moghuls, however, as I have had much experience in fighting them, are quite different visually from the the Marathas. They have a few visually unique (as far as I've seen) units, and many of their troops are more similar to the Persians than the Marathas. They do have some mirror units such as Islamic Swordsman, of course. I am unsure of how accurate their armies are, merely that they have a different selection.
Mughals, Persians, Afghans, and Khiva are all clones.
Not PC in this day and age, but I do dare say that CA has the typical snobbish British attitudes of the 19th and early 20th centuries. What else can explain the weird unit selections and imbalances in battle performances for non-European, even non-British countries?
Remember: CA never claimed their games to be "historical simulators" for the sake of entertainment value. In fact, it's for people with no historical knowledge and it has degraded itself to further insult your intelligence by tossing commonsense... for sake of fun? inuit lancers? half naked native indians marching in drilled fashion in snow? Yes, you have to be an ignoramus to not find certain things troubling.
Originally Posted by Slaists:
Hey, CA, come on... Inuit lancers!??? An ARMY of Inuit lancers(!!) in the polar freeze of Northern Labrador!??? Well, I quite understand that the CA tried to depict the fact that the Inuit's were much better accustomed for the snowfields of Northern Canada, but lancers(!!)... What did they feed their horses with? Moss? Seal fat?
There are other options (to make fighting Inuits more challenging) available too:
1) give the inuits (some historically more truthful version of their armed forces) huge defense/stamina/morale bonuses IF their armies are fighting in their native lands.
2) give the outsiders (the europeans) huge defense, stamina, morale PENALTIES if they are fighting in such harsh conditions as the Arctic OR the forests of Huron, Iroqouis, etc.
3) combine #1 & #2....
But lancers(!??), CANONS(!??), savages drilled in ligning up and marching!? If modders can easily implement AOR principles and realistic ethnic flavor, why cannot CA do the same?
As to lancers: is there ANY historic evidence that native Americans used ANY horse lancers at any point in time?
Sigh...
Hey, CA, come on... Inuit lancers!??? An ARMY of Inuit lancers(!!) in the polar freeze of Northern Labrador!??? Well, I quite understand that the CA tried to depict the fact that the Inuit's were much better accustomed for the snowfields of Northern Canada, but lancers(!!)... What did they feed their horses with? Moss? Seal fat?
There are other options (to make fighting Inuits more challenging) available too:
1) give the inuits (some historically more truthful version of their armed forces) huge defense/stamina/morale bonuses IF their armies are fighting in their native lands.
2) give the outsiders (the europeans) huge defense, stamina, morale PENALTIES if they are fighting in such harsh conditions as the Arctic OR the forests of Huron, Iroqouis, etc.
3) combine #1 & #2....
But lancers(!??), CANONS(!??), savages drilled in ligning up and marching!? If modders can easily implement AOR principles and realistic ethnic flavor, why cannot CA do the same?
As to lancers: is there ANY historic evidence that native Americans used ANY horse lancers at any point in time?
Sigh...
Originally Posted by BeeSting:
Remember: CA never claimed their games to be "historical simulators" for the sake of entertainment value. In fact, it's for people with no historical knowledge and it has degraded itself to further insult your intelligence by tossing commonsense... for sake of fun? inuit lancers? half naked native indians marching in drilled fashion in snow? Yes, you have to be an ignoramus to not find certain things troubling.
Well, if that's the direction: I wan to see self-igniting walrus riders, excellent weapons against 1st rates stuck amongst icebergs ;)Remember: CA never claimed their games to be "historical simulators" for the sake of entertainment value. In fact, it's for people with no historical knowledge and it has degraded itself to further insult your intelligence by tossing commonsense... for sake of fun? inuit lancers? half naked native indians marching in drilled fashion in snow? Yes, you have to be an ignoramus to not find certain things troubling.
Originally Posted by Slaists:
Well, if that's the direction: I wan to see self-igniting walrus riders, excellent weapons against 1st rates stuck amongst icebergs ;)
I still haven't been able to unlock the super-secret Quantum Elephants I predicted would be in the game a while ago.Well, if that's the direction: I wan to see self-igniting walrus riders, excellent weapons against 1st rates stuck amongst icebergs ;)
It makes me a sad geisha.
Walrus riders would honestly be more appealing. The inherent absurdity and the fact that no one would mistake them with reality.
Also, I thought that smiley was a sad guy with a beret. >.>
Also, I thought that smiley was a sad guy with a beret. >.>
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