EB's game mechanism

[Anthologie]

Hey there,

a brand new EB adept over here. I've been playing since 3-4 days and I find this mod totally awsome. Pretty refreshing. However, I have some questions because I kept being powned against AI and it's pretty unusual for me. (get use of heroic victory at vanilla RTW)

#1: I found that battles last much longer than before. Even with a traditionnal flanking strategy (ie: Illyrioi Thureophoroi (Illyrian Spearmen) against hastati + principe who flank) The Spearmen just won't die... or it will take much much longer than usual.

#2: Can't get a good general... My gen always tend to fall in dark side of the force. Sure, I've got great city manager and FM with influence. However.. Can't seems to get stars with FM. (and yea, I make em fight a lot.. well I try..)

#3: Can't make my homeland barrack in my own homeland. (Roman = italy = homeland => can't even recruit rorarii..) Does city size matter?

#4: Cavalry sucks? ok, I remember in RTW, 1 or 2 units of cavalry who were flanking and the opponent unit was routing in less than 5 seconds.. Even my gen's bodyguard inflict negligeable damage.

#5: Spears vs Swords.. Which one is better against what..? I already heard between somes bushes that Spears were good against cavalry and swords vs infantry.. Is it true?



I'm currently playing a Romanii campaign (H/M) and doing relatively well.. In 263bc, Italy is mine, Segestica, Massalia and I grabbed lately some land in sicily (Carthage is not very happy about it tho..) However, I can't keep up the rythm against Aerni + Averni. My K/d ratio is 2:1 in battles (which is not bad.... i guess?) but they keep spawning sh*tload of units. I won't be able to stand against those barbaric tribes and soon enough, i will sure lose some ground.. Any tactics advantages would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you
Anthologie

[A Very Super Market]

Welcome to the .org!

1. Yep, get used to it. Even with "arcade battles" off, stock RTW was too quick. You'll get used to it.

2. Yeah, it is harder to get command stars. It doesn't really make a difference, though. If you have Smart/Charismatic/Vigourous and Unselfish/Optimistic/Loyal, in your character's traits, there will be greatness in their future... Or death.

3. Taras, Rhegion, and the Northern Romani homelands cannot make Camillan homeland troops. Once you get Polybian reforms, then you can recruit. After Marian reforms, then you can recruit legionaries EVERYWHERE.

4. Make sure your cavalry are charging, and not directly into the front of a prepared unit. They don't last very long in close combat, so the charge is your greatest advantage in cavalry. Give them enough ground to get to top speed, and send them into engaged infantry. Depending on the type of cavalry, utter chaos.

Of course, you're using Roman cavalry, they aren't very good anyways.

5. Spears get -4 attack against other infantry. The whole stats thing is a fairly complicated mish-mash of technical stuff, so you're better off not thinking about it too much. But yes, generally speaking, swords are better in close combat. Phalanxes.... *shudder

Sorry, no advice for you but..... Keep on playing! Once you get a hang of the game, it becomes more of a Role-playing game as your FMs wander around. Read some of the AARs, remember to have fun, and stick around the .org!

[amritochates]

Welcome to the .org

Thought I would drop in, since I am in midst of a Romani campaign (222 BCE) as well.
Some Pointers:
a. Read the FAQ- it is stickied at the top. It is especially important for you since your units as well as your zones of recruitment including your factional barracks are determined by the three reforms (Polybian, Marian and Imperial) with different requirements.

b. Check out this awesome romani guide:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=93896

c. For your cavalry needs use the Equites Extraordinarii, they are have slighty better stats than your BG as well as secondary ap weapons. But in general Romani plays as an Infantry Faction, so in most cases cavalry is only used to chase routers and hostile light/missile cavalry.

d.Be aware that the script includes a money script, so an economic strategy against the AI is useless. The AI is quite capable of pumping out elite stacks and often does so even when down to its last couple of provinces.

e. Technically the way it should work is spears trump cavalry, swords trump spears. But due to some stat changes in EB1.2, spear units may be overpowered. For more details check out this thread as well:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=114926

Last but not least turn on the script.

[Nachtmeister]

Supermarket already answered most of your questions, so I'm just going to give you some basic tactical/realism advice here.

#1 - THAT is what your cavalry is for - charging cavalry and javelin troops respectively attacking from behind the enemy (don't do both @ same time => pay very very close attention to avoid friendly fire at all times) are the two things that kill enemies fast. Oh, and charging elephants (from behind) are the ultimate tactical nukes of EB, but they die like flies when attacked by javelin throwing troops in spite of the four hitpoints.

#2 - The command stars don't really affect battles very much - except that killing the ENEMY general usually makes their troops much more prone to routing (=fleeing). Making them flee is your main goal because exhaustion has much more effect in EB and fleeing causes them to run - even if they re-enter the battle later, they will be totally exhausted, making them die (and flee again) much faster.

#3 - Use the RECRUITMENT VIEWER a lot. Read about the units listed there on the unit-compare website when planning campaigns/army composition. It can be worthwhile to base your expansion priorities upon whether it will gain you good units to sstrengthen your army.

#4 - Using cavalry requires some skill/getting used to in EB. There are three basic types of cavalry:
- 2-handed lance cavalry (for charging into enemy and strongly pushing the enemy back in the same move.
- 1-handed lance cavalry with shield (for charging and then staying in melee, either against units which don't immediately panic an run but only need very little extra "encouragement" to do so, or especially against enemy cavalry where retreating is a bit suicidal and you wouldn't get a second charge attempt anyway because they will pursue your unit.
- javelin-and-sword cavalry with shield (for skirmishing/flanking and for sustained melee against infantry after enemy has already been decimated. These are also best at running down fleeing enemies.

Heavy cavalry = slow movement, strong push in charge, faster to get exhausted, slower to get killed
Medium cavalry = mainly useful for killing archers because they are a bit faster than heavy cavalry, also can counter light cavalry.
Light cavalry = for skirmishing and running down fleeing enemy only. One notable exception is a unit called "Prodromoi"; they are great at charges from behind the enemy too but NEVER leave them in a melee as they die like flies when attacked.

General how-to for charging:
if a "warcry" or "trumpet" sounds and their lances are "couched" (sp? means "aimed horizontally forward"), they are charging and receive the "charge bonus" listed in their stats for only the FIRST attack of every individual soldier on the enemy.
After it has been delivered and the enemy is not routing - retreat the cavalry immediately, form them up facing the enemy ready for the next charge (r-click and drag, when desired formation is marced by yellow indicators ("arrows") on battle map, release r-click) and WAIT UNTIL THEY HAVE HALTED (no movement-arrow on unit card). Then, r-click once on enemy. If you want them to sprint to the enemy and charge when they arrive (attacking archers or enemy cavalry for example), double-r-click on the enemy. There is a minimum charge distance below which charge will not be made no matter what (roughly the length of a small village town square).

Your native roman cavalry is the sword-and-shield variety but without javelins.

#5 - In general, spears are a defensive and swords/clubs/axes are an offensive weapon.
Spears: Counter cavalry, and use in defend-mode for main front line. This is especially effective for Triarii and other hoplite units.
Swords: Faster rate of attack, so also effective when not in such a dense "defend"/"phalanx" formation. They are especially useful when fighting on walls and when flanking the enemy or attacking from behind as both are done fastest when your unit performing the task is in loose order.
Also, a unit with swords can better deal with attacks from multiple directions although they won't prevent them from dieing.
Axes: More effective against heavily armored troops. Soesn't mean a light infantry unit with axes going head to head with a heavy infantry unit with spears will win the fight, but the "armor"-stat is lowered vs axes so they will at least kill faster.
Clubs: Cause blunt trauma, which also can sort of ignore armor. Similar to axes.

The same profound differences in effect also apply to missile troops. In general, they will be most effective if used from behind the enemy (after flanking). The javelins and sling bolts can pierce armor whereas arrows can not but are more accurate than long-range sling bolts and can be used more flexibly as you can shoot when standing behind a protecting melee unit (as long as you are not shooting at said melee unit's already engaged enemy).
For instance, keep two or three units of archers behind your main line set to auto-fire. If the enemy closes with your infantry, they will stop shooting. If the enemy routs, they will shoot after them. Be careful to halt your own infantry in that case though because otherwise they will die from friendly fire.
Flaming arrows are, effectively, a bit like armor piercing ammunition but only reasonably accurate at very short distances. They also make enemies panic. Elephants can go berserk (out of control attacking anything close to them) if they suffer casualties and are then hit by sufficient amounts of flaming arrows.


Against Gauls:
Use missile troops. Most of them have almost no armor. They will die very quickly when hit by missiles. Use slingers ("accensi") against their heavy cavalry/generals. Use Hastati in front, Principes in second and Triarii in third rank. When enemy draws close, run around them with Hastati, frontal-attack with Principes, rear-attack with Hastati and send in Triarii where the fight gets very hard or to counter enemy cavalry. Use your cavalry to attack enemy missile troops or to hunt down fleeing enemies. DO NOT engage "Bataroas" on walls with your factional infantry - they will die like flies. If you must fight wall battles, use mercenary heavy sword infantry or, if not available, lots of Hastati.
Roman infantry is excellent for field battles but very bad at siege battles. Pedites Extraordinarii are a bit better on walls when you have the MIC level needed for them, although they get tired rather fast and are quite expensive.
If you encounter "Gaesatae" or "Tindanotae", throw javelins at them rather than engaging in melee.

Against Hellenes:
Their phalanxes (the pike phalanxes especially) will rip your infantry apart if you are not very careful about how to attack them. Attack them from front with one unit of Triarii set to defend-mode. This is to keep their pikes oriented towards one direction, not to kill them! So do not try to get past the pikes. Then, flank them with other units and kill them from the rear and sides while your Triarii just hold the line. Alternatively, run three units of Pedites extraordinarii *through* the pike phalanx (*salutes Antisocial Munky*). Only possible when the Pedites Extraordinarii are not exhausted.

Against Swebozez: RUN!

If you should ever have the severe misfortune of encountering horse archers, use Mercenaries: Pike phalanxes are invulnerable to missile fire from the front and hoplite phalanxes are nearly as good.

BUILD MINES wherever you can.

Only do sea battles if you are far superior in numbers (and ship tech level, if possible). Auto-resolve is tweaked to your severe disadvantage in EB.

That's all the advice I can think of right now, I hope it helps.

[seienchin]

..............

Ok. Your Question about the homeland barracs was already answered right, but I guess I give my two cents to the rest.

1. Flanking still works you only need usually more troops than the enemy has to do so, one pins the enemy one flanks. Difficult against gauls...
2. It is harder and yes it does make a difference no matter what people in this forum might tell you. In Eb the Enemy gets 5Stars+ Generals all the time and you probably dont get more than 1. There is a mod that fixes it, but the EB Team did it on purpose to make battles last longer. It is impossible to rout enemy infantry with your own infantry, when the enemy has a 10star general. In Eb you must kill the enemy general most of the time, but exaustion and right cavallery use can rout the enemy also quite easily. And of course there are elephants...
4. Use your cavallery as medivial like charge cavallery and the victory is yours. Light cavallery should only be charged at the back or the flanks of an enemy, but heavy ones can atack everywhere. Make sure the enemy is pined by a infantry unit then charge 2-5 cavallery units on it. Repeat it several times and the victory is yours. Oh and cavallery like the campanian ones are best used as anti cavallery cavallery, because of their high atack ranking they are quite strong in close combat.
5. Spears are better against cavallery, but swords are also good. In close combat both are strong, but spears give you a plus on the defense so it is better to pell of enemy charges.


Anyway I wish you good luck. I am also playong the romani right now. I just got the Imperial reforms and Im fighting desperatly against the parthians with their ultra heavy cavallery, ultra heavy cavallery archers and phalangitai...

[Mediolanicus]

For the command stars: true the AI gets boni.
On the other hand, I have no problem in getting command stars for my generals, certainly not with the Romani. IIRC you get command stars through some offices.

My current faction leader is actually quite bad overall, but he has 4 command stars. I've had multiple generals that had +5 command stars.

[Tellos Athenaios]

2. It is harder and yes it does make a difference no matter what people in this forum might tell you. In Eb the Enemy gets 5Stars+ Generals all the time and you probably dont get more than 1. There is a mod that fixes it, but the EB Team did it on purpose to make battles last longer. It is impossible to rout enemy infantry with your own infantry, when the enemy has a 10star general.

If you keep fighting a lot you'll easily pick up 2 stars, even with mediocre generals. Just a *lot*. Big battles, personal involvement from your general might help too - but am not too sure about that one.

Now the effect of command stars is an inspiration 'boost' for units around the general within a radius. The more stars the bigger the 'boost' and 'radius'. However, and this is important: there exist plenty of traits in EB which can do far more because traits operate on the *entire* army irrespective of the quality of your general.

Being lead by a 10 star general when the men have been eating their dead fellows by now because of starvation (effect of negative combat traits) has less positive impact on the morale of his soldiers, than the prospect of a having him and his horse for dinner would (which would offset the negative traits as well as the stars).

Really, in EB it is all about the traits.

[Anthologie]

thanks yall for your help.. I appreciate..

However, got some another question. I just checked for the next reform (polybian) and made some observations.

First : there not much difference between Camillian and Polybian reform.. and as a matter of fact, it seems that Quality/price ratio are leaning toward Camillian troops.

https://img19.imageshack.us/img19/9823/camvspoly.jpg

But, lethality & armor are better in polybian reform: does lethality (a difference of +.02 for hastati and +0.005 for principe) plays a huge role in units force calculation?

Principe in Camillian reform :
secondary attack : 14 (spear) / lethality : 1.125

Principe in Polybian reform
secondary attack : 11 (sword) / lethality : 1.3

And i'm not even talking about Triarii...

I mean, isn't supposed that Roman army effiency increased with time? What are the benefit of doing that reform?

[SwissBarbar]

spear gets -4 attack when fighting sword, sword does not
they have higher armour, less upkeep and higher morale, which makes them quite better. They're not supposed to outshine the camillan ones like Hercules the farmer boy next door.

[Zett]

https://img19.imageshack.us/img19/9823/camvspoly.jpg

They unit costs and upkeeps in the EB Documantation are outdated. Look in your EDU files for the current values.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

[antisocialmunky]

Light spear gets -4 attack defensewhen fighting sword, sword does not
they have higher armour, less upkeep and higher morale, which makes them quite better. They're not supposed to outshine the camillan ones like Hercules the farmer boy next door.

Fixed.

[SwissBarbar]

oops,, sry

[Anthologie]

ok thanks for info people. I really begun to enjoy EB.. (tho ive just had a CTD JUST after an Heroic victory while defending syracuse against Carthage... (850 kills vs 120 - had aprox 300 units composed of ascendi and rorarii.. he had disciplined and trained units..) I managed to keep him in a bottleneck... The kind of victory you just can get once.. bit of luck too..

Dam, after the victory confirm button, CTD...! beh...

[A Very Super Market]

Try waiting for the musical flourish to end before ending the battle, especially for important ones.

What unit size are you using? It seems to be normal-ish, and most of us would recomment large or huge sizes. As long as you keep graphics down, your computer should manage it. Its a bit hard to get the "epic" or realistic feel when you play with 22 men in a unit of hastati...

[Anthologie]

using large.. I found that huge are giving me micromanagement headaches and.. probably that my comp coulnt handle full stack's battle at huge.

I will use your tip about waiting for the end of the music..

Just resuming about it:

Spear : -4 against infantry / bonus against cavalry
Sword : Normal
Light Spear : normal / bonus against cavalry

is that right? So its mean that I should focus on light spear units..?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I hate to do it, but *if* I have a heroic victory CTD, I rarely replay the battle, but instead autoresolve a win for my soldiers. If I lost only a very small number in the battle, I'll just attack the enemy with only part of my soldiers so I don't lose that many in autoresolve. It's not what I want to do, and I won't get good traits for my generals if they are involved, but it's better than reslogging it out I think.