green jackets, best light infantry?

[Marquis of Roland]

On huge unit size a zero experience unit kills about 25-30 guys in 1 volley, their melee stats are 5 attack 12 defense compared to most other light infantry with 7-7, and to my knowledge they're the only light infantry equipped with bayonets (and a rather large one at that), so they out-melee every other light infantry (they also outshoot most of them too). They're actually pretty resilient to cavalry; I've had them get caught in light infantry mode by cavalry and they actually killed off a good number of cavalry in melee by themselves before help arrived.

Are these guys a little overpowered? I mean, were they historically that good? Outshooting/outmeleeing most other light infantry, ok, but giving cavalry a good fight in open ground? Even in Sharpe's they got killed pretty easily by cav didn't they? lol

[NimitsTexan]

Well, historically, they were good, elite even . . . but there what, only about 3 (or was it 5) "Green Jacket" Regiments in the whole British military establishment . . . out of 100+ total regiments. In game, both multiplayer and in campaign, they are probably rather too common.

[joe4iz]

There should be a cap on how many of them you can recruit.

[Nelson]

There should be a cap on how many of them you can recruit.

I agree.

Special elite units have always been available in unlimited quantities going all the way back to Shogun. In my own campaigns I restrict their use but the AI of course remains unfettered.

[Megas Methuselah]

Ferguson Riflemen make these guys seem as if they are playing around with cap guns.

[quadalpha]

There are caps on guard infantry.

[Marquis of Roland]

Ferguson Riflemen make these guys seem as if they are playing around with cap guns.

Ferguson Riflemen die alot faster though. They can defeat green jackets in a shootout but in a 1 on 1 fight green jackets can win through melee (charging in right after the last enemy volley). Green jackets also stand up to cavalry alot better. They're also a special unit of which only one can be recruited.

I'm sure all rifle regiments were "elite" historically. My question is, were the British rifle regiments the best light infantry outfits in the time period?

I only know of 2 British rifle regiments in the Napoleonic wars, the 60th and 95th. Were there more?

[Megas Methuselah]

Riflemen shouldn't even be dragged into a melee. On mp (where there's no unit limit), Ferguson Riflemen are much more valuable than green jackets. Utilize them together with the Line Infantry, and you'll get a ridiculously easy victory.

Besides, if you tried charging green jackets into a unit of Fergusons, they'd probably suffer 2-3 volleys before actually reaching them. We'd need to test this to actually determine the would-be victor.

[Oleander Ardens]

Hourses for courses. The Green Jackets are excellent skrimishers to have on the flanks as they can stand up to pretty well to a cavalry charge and other infantry, giving you time to reinforce them before they take heavy losses and rout.

Both the Ferguson riflemen and the Windbuechse Jaeger are the best skirmishers in an open firefight and to screen the center. Anyway I would also don't like to bring too many elite units into the fray. With Austria I try to have a higher amount of light infantry (Pandurs, Jaegers, Lights, Grenzers) compared to Prussia (mostly Milita and Line).

[Quillan]

Ferguson Riflemen die alot faster though. They can defeat green jackets in a shootout but in a 1 on 1 fight green jackets can win through melee (charging in right after the last enemy volley). Green jackets also stand up to cavalry alot better. They're also a special unit of which only one can be recruited.

I'm sure all rifle regiments were "elite" historically. My question is, were the British rifle regiments the best light infantry outfits in the time period?

I only know of 2 British rifle regiments in the Napoleonic wars, the 60th and 95th. Were there more?

If there's a cap on Green Jackets, it's at least 4, because I had that many in my GB campaign. Regular Guard infantry has a cap, 5 or 6 I think. Coldstream Guards and The Black Watch (both only buildable in Scotland) can only have one each. Ferguson Rifles can only have one unit. I'm not sure what the cap is on Life Guard (cavalry) because I only built one of them.

[gellis23]

The Rifles were the 95th Regiment of foot. Historically only 3 battallions. There were the KGL light who were also partially rifle armed and of course the Portuguese.

Outside of that you had the 5th/60th.

The 95th were trained at Shornecliffe. During the Napoleonic period this was a legendry light infantry school.

Were the 95th good, undoubtably. Black "Bob" Craufalds actions showed that the british Light Division was one of the finesst formations in the world. Unfortunately this game is set earlier.

[IvarrWolfsong]

They seem a bit over the top in melee. Britain was not really know for uber light inf at that time. That honor belonged to Austria (OMG ETW was right about something!). Hunting culture and a huge land border led to frontier troops that were well known for light inf tactics.

Trivia! Huge amounts of very skilled light infantry skirmishers would become the calling card of a different country near the end of the E:TW timeline. Who and why?

[Kulgan]

Must be Prussia, who and why is a harder question. I think Von Clausewitz is in their army around the time period you speak off. But I don't recall the prussian skirmishers of the time having a reputation of being very good at their job. They made up by having more skirmishers then other nations though.

[Oleander Ardens]

Clausewitz actually has written a very sound tactic guide for young inexperienced wargamers. It was a little work for the young crown prince and was finished way before he started to write "On War". I will make a strategy guide out of it, if time permits.

Anyway Austria has a fine jaeger/skirmisher tradition, and it is a bit sad that they are so weak in melee. IIRC a jaeger regiment charged once a cavalry formation with cold steel . But of course it was a very rare incident.

BTW: I made the Grenzer a bit larger (60) with a proportional increase in upkeep. A very nice unit with this transformation but still a far way from a Green jacket.

[Kraxis]

Must be Prussia, who and why is a harder question. I think Von Clausewitz is in their army around the time period you speak off. But I don't recall the prussian skirmishers of the time having a reputation of being very good at their job. They made up by having more skirmishers then other nations though.

Possibly... but we are talking towards the end here...

And if we extrapolate that huge amounts is thousands, and light infantry is basically just infantry that shoot but hide and don't stand in lines, then my guess would be the fledgling USA. Minutemen? Could technically be called light infantry, and there were ertainly enough of those.

[antisocialmunky]

Minutemen in the game is ridiculous light infantry due to the fact that they come in 160. So 160 bullet and then run like hell.

[IvarrWolfsong]

Actually I was talking about France after the revolution. After just the revolution, the French forces were sub par, but they had a LOT of them. They took the the higher morale and more competent types and made them skirmishers to harrass and weaken the enemies forces. That way, when the relatively shakier french forces engaged, the enimies were already weakened.

Eventually the French army became the best in Europe and their infantry was anything but shakey. Even though the Old Guard and massive cavalry charges get all the press in the days of Napoleon, the tradition continued and a before all those spectacular curaisiers and pretty rows of inf engaged an enemy, swarms of skirmishers (both on foot and on horseback) had gone forward to disrupt things.

Let me try to find a quote from a book I have that has a good line about some other country having elite light infantry but being no match for the swarms and swarms of french skirmishers.

Minutemen in the game is ridiculous light infantry due to the fact that they come in 160. So 160 bullet and then run like hell.

Thats exactly what they did most of the time, often causing terrible defeats for the Colonists. The Battle of Cowpens was won by Morgan because he worked the fact that the militia was "skurd" into his plan. Insteasd of being a liability, he turned it into an asset.

[Kraxis]

The defeats weren't the Minutemen's fault, it was because isiotic generals like Horatio Gates who utilised them against the best British forces in a face to face fight. That simply didn't work. Interestingly even commanders that have generally been considered stupid, like Dareios III of Persia (though I contest that) knew better than to put militia in the first line

They were not regulars but could work as light infantry if needed, or even as a solid anchor if given a fortified position from where they could use their marksmanship without fear of getting volleyed down in seconds.

[Oleander Ardens]

The morale of the various militia units differed of course a lot. But I agree that generally the Minutemen could just like some European counterparts put up quite a fight when led and utilized properly. In my region well trained shooters with little or no training were able to defeat well-drilled Bavarian, Saxon and French troops in pitched battles. Just like Clausewitz said, the defence is the stronger form and natural obstacles, additional defenses and a steep slope strenghen the resistance of the defender. Well supplied sharpshooter and militia in broken, favorable terrain with strong natural flanks proved sufficient to stop a generally superior enemy with reknowned leadership even without no true battleplan and C&C.

Here and here are the panoramas of the third battle. Quite impressive

But force them to stand up in an even fight at close range and you will face disaster.

[Mount Suribachi]

Can't comment on them in-game, but in reality the Rifles were very, very good. They had a superior rifle and had a very un-Napoleonic-era attitude and culture. Their tactic of targetting French officers had a decisive effect on the enemy leadership & morale in battle. After reading "Rifles" by Mark Urban I realised that maybe Sharpe wasn't so far fetched

[gellis23]

Yes I have read all the Sharpe books. Great hokum.

The simple fact was that the 95th were the best light infantry trained at Shornecliffe. That's why they became the Rifle Brigade, then the Royal Greenjackets.

The Baker rifle was the finest mass produced weopon of the Napoleonic war. Add to this they used sword bayonets, more sword than bayonet. They were very good indeed.

Regards

[Fisherking]

The Austrians have the best in game with the Windbuechse Jaegers.

Their Jaegers are good too and are built in one turn.

We know that the American Long Rifles are the top buy you don’t get them in a regular campaign.

[Megas Methuselah]

The Austrians have the best in game with the Windbuechse Jaegers.

Yeah, those guys are good. IIRC, they can fire even faster than the Ferguson riflemen (who fire very fast themselves). They have less men per unit (45 as opposed to the regular 60), but have the added bonuses of being able to hide while marching and of making next to no noise while firing.

They suck up vast amounts of ammo in such a short time, though, and really suck in melee (this mirrors the Fergusons).

[Oleander Ardens]

Personally I tend to field in multiplayer a mixture of jaeger and windbuechse jaeger as skirmishers roughly 2:1. The former are very cheap compared to the standard riflemen but only slightly less effective in their main role. A chevron will even things out. The can also keep up their accurate riflefire for a long time. The WB jaeger are excellent at turning flanks or at eliminating artillery in a hurry, being able to concentrate large amounts of firepower in a short period in a compact mobile package. Their ammunition load is usually sufficient for online battles.

BTW: How do you guys like the Grenzer?

[Megas Methuselah]

Grenzers are insane. They can outshoot anything in a standard musket-firefight. My ally killed a few thousand troops while only losing some 500 in a 4v4 game once. He rolled right over the enemy's flank.