Should we prevent suicide attempts?

[pevergreen]

I would say that person needs to learn tact.


You have to show them you love them. You have to look in there ears and bear your soul. Doing it over the phone or facebook simply won't cut it. Make sure they know killing themselves would be like killing you.

I was speaking more of the younger demographic, old people are completely different.



Saddness is all a matter of perception. A 17 year old offing themselves is completly and utterly selfish , to there mum, dad and family. Not to mention there future spouse and children or people they will meet later on.

This whole "Oh woe is me" thing is a pile of bull. As is "no one understands" There is someone somewhere going through something much worse and there doing it with a smile on there face.

Now if you'll excuse me I must get off my high horse

I did everything I could and more. Theres a thread a few pages back in this backroom. That was kind of a log of what was happening.

I don't believe I can change your view, so I'm not going to try.

edit: its on page 20. https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...2&postcount=14

Imagine yourself at your happiest (not pleasured, happiest).

In your daily life you are fit, have had plenty of sleep, are exercising regularly. You feel that what you do is important, that you contribute to your life, family and society. You move through each day with a purpose. You don't run or strut you glide and glow so brightly that you seem to be smiling even when you aren't. You have so many options and things to do and at the same time you know which needs to be done first, and then second and then third... You are a dynamo of happiness and motivation.

Now turn that upside down and inside out and you have depression. Depressed you can't see any options, there is no way out, it is black and you are at the bottom of a well in which you can't see any way out. You are so scared that nothing can get better that nothing must be better then here and now. You fear the blankness so much that eternal death looks a much rosier option. No known options in life remain, but there is the unknown option of death.

Thats a lot better than I can do.

[Lord Winter]

Saddness is all a matter of perception. A 17 year old offing themselves is completly and utterly selfish , to there mum, dad and family. Not to mention there future spouse and children or people they will meet later on.

This whole "Oh woe is me" thing is a pile of bull. As is "no one understands" There is someone somewhere going through something much worse and there doing it with a smile on there face.

Now if you'll excuse me I must get off my high horse

Your strawmanning depression. Not all cases of depression equals angsty emos.

[Samurai Waki]

Strike,
You have to understand that people do radical things when put into stressful situations. Its not a matter of "woe is me" or "people don't understand me" its usually more just complete perceptual obliviousness to the world that surrounds you. Suicide isn't the only case where people do fatal harm to themselves, you could go so far as to say that Murdering somebody would fall right along into the same category, only suicide is internalized where murder is externalized, and I hate to say it but nearly everybody can be pushed to the point of murder no matter what class, country, or lifestyle the person belongs to. You might ask yourself this question, am I a person who kills myself? or kills other people? If you don't fall into either category, there may be something very wrong...or very right.
Besides the point, the vast majority of people who do kill themselves are suffering from debilitating mental neurosis, or perhaps thats how they perceive it. How you perceive, or anyone else just doesn't matter to them. Likewise, the vast majority of murderers are also people who suffer from debilitating mental neurosis, of course you would have to get off of your "high horse" in order to understand that these chemical imbalances in people's brains aren't what defines them, because you are composed of the same chemicals, its just theirs aren't balanced whereas yours is, which is only to mean that they're a fraction more likely to carry out such acts as anyone else who doesn't have a mental neurosis.

Cheers

[Fixiwee]

Your strawmanning depression. Not all cases of depression equals angsty emos.

Depression does not have anything to do with being emo. Not necesserely.
Having depression means you are unable to make decissions. This can be tough choices like choosing a job or simple matter like going shopping or not.
Ofc this problems often lead to difficulties regarding people you know, hence emo.

Anyway. I'm on the "give everyone a free choice to kill him self." I am acutally living up to that. A good friend I lived with for 3 years told me he might kill himself and I said fine, I'm not gonna stop you. After all that guy is not the angsty "I need help" kinda guy but the one who simply vanishes one day.
I hope I can at least say goodbye to him if he ever does it.

On the other I see no rush in killing oneself. Everyone will have its day to die. Why the rush?

[rory_20_uk]

Depression does not have anything to do with being emo. Not necesserely.
Having depression means you are unable to make decissions. This can be tough choices like choosing a job or simple matter like going shopping or not.

Utter rubbish.

Depression has nothing to do with the ability to make decisions. Some depressed people are able to do so, others not. Link

[Fixiwee]

Utter rubbish.

Depression has nothing to do with the ability to make decisions. Some depressed people are able to do so, others not. Link

I was merley pointing out that depression has nothing to do with being an emo. I was a bit unspecific maybe, because I spoke out of personal expirience and not of scholastic knowledge. Friend of mine has diagnosis of depression and she is unable to make any decisions.

Unspecific yes. But not "utter rubbish".

[rory_20_uk]

Sorry, family and work stress might be making me less tolerant than normal...

[Fixiwee]

Touchee.
No hard feelings.

[Meneldil]

Contrary to belief there is someone who loves and cares about you. That person or persons will never understand why you did something so selfish.

Rubbish.
In my case, my father in law was being a burden on the family. My mum was the only one bringing money to the house, feeding him, me, my brother and our pets.
Not only that, but out of shame (as he couldn't pay anything despite promising to do it), he caused lots of issues (ie. "Yeah I paid that" while he never actually did it, causing the government/bank/water company to get mad at my mum).
He stole money to me and my back-then 14 years old brother, to actually pretend to be paying stuff and to be making us gifts.

We loved him, but he was driving us mad, and was putting my mother in a difficult position, and he perfectly knew it. Since he had nowhere to go and couldn't apparently solve his issues, his only left choice was actually to end his life.

I wouldn't call that selfish. He knew people loved him, but he knew he was harming those people, so he gave his life. I would describe his behavior as extremely selfless.

This whole "Oh woe is me" thing is a pile of bull. As is "no one understands" There is someone somewhere going through something much worse and there doing it with a smile on there face.

Once again, I call rubbish. You seem to be perceiving that suicide is some kind of fashionly behaviour, and that it concerns only some people ("teenagers", "emos" or however you wanna call them).

I admit that some people are thinking about suicide for completely pointless, irrelevant and ridiculous reasons (such as "I lost my Xbox"), but in these cases, I wouldn't take it seriously.
Some people on the other hand, have no friends, never enjoyed love, or at some point in their life felt deeply betrayed. Then I think they have a reason to commit suicide. Humans are social beings, and when we can't have any social relationship, why bothering about life? Whether you admit it or not, some people don't have anything left, or weight the pro and the con and decide that the cons are vastly overwhelming.
Why should people be glad to have working limbes and senses when they don't have anything else? All your talk about thanking god sounds like crap to me in that case.

[Strike For The South]

Rubbish.
In my case, my father in law was being a burden on the family. My mum was the only one bringing money to the house, feeding him, me, my brother and our pets.
Not only that, but out of shame (as he couldn't pay anything despite promising to do it), he caused lots of issues (ie. "Yeah I paid that" while he never actually did it, causing the government/bank/water company to get mad at my mum).
He stole money to me and my back-then 14 years old brother, to actually pretend to be paying stuff and to be making us gifts.

We loved him, but he was driving us mad, and was putting my mother in a difficult position, and he perfectly knew it. Since he had nowhere to go and couldn't apparently solve his issues, his only left choice was actually to end his life.

I wouldn't call that selfish. He knew people loved him, but he knew he was harming those people, so he gave his life. I would describe his behavior as extremely selfless.

While your father in laws situation is regrettable there is a million things he could've done besides killing himself. There are also a million things he could've done instead of steal from his family.

Once again, I call rubbish. You seem to be perceiving that suicide is some kind of fashionly behaviour, and that it concerns only some people ("teenagers", "emos" or however you wanna call them).

I admit that some people are thinking about suicide for completely pointless, irrelevant and ridiculous reasons (such as "I lost my Xbox"), but in these cases, I wouldn't take it seriously.
Some people on the other hand, have no friends, never enjoyed love, or at some point in their life felt deeply betrayed. Then I think they have a reason to commit suicide. Humans are social beings, and when we can't have any social relationship, why bothering about life? Whether you admit it or not, some people don't have anything left, or weight the pro and the con and decide that the cons are vastly overwhelming.
Why should people be glad to have working limbes and senses when they don't have anything else? All your talk about thanking god sounds like crap to me in that case.

Because there are people who would kill for working limbs and senses. There are people who would kill to have a roof over there head. People take these gifts like they are owed them when they are really not owed anything. Why you would throw that all away is quite frankly utterly stupid. Especially when people soldier on all there lives with none of those things.


Everyone at some point gets betrayed or loses someone they love. You can't just quit, Same goes for someone who has never been loved. Often times the people who commit suicide are young, love will come to them. At times one must go through trials and tribulations, that's part of life.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Because there are people who would kill for working limbs and senses. There are people who would kill to have a roof over there head. People take these gifts like they are owed them when they are really not owed anything. Why you would throw that all away is quite frankly utterly stupid. Especially when people soldier on all there lives with none of those things.

Having limbs and shelter are not reasons to live for, they are there to sustain life. While its tragic that some people lack these basic necessities, I don't see why we should frown upon people for wanting to end their lives when its all they've got. If you feel worthless, then you think that the food you eat to keep your limbs functioning is a waste of resources, even the air you breathe.

To want to live, your life has to have some sort of purpose or goal. The problem with suicide cases is that they don't have this, or feel that it is unattainable, even if it's not in reality.

[NagatsukaShumi]

When I was ill last year (I had an ear infection that ravaged my sense, which made me feel like nothing was real, plus I couldn't feel anything at time, I couldn't do anything, even breathing was hard thanks to a crippling mental decline) and honestyl wanted to die, not to kil lmyself, but to not wake up.

I can see why people think it, but it depends on each case, the illness made me feel that way, so no pep talk would work because it'd not cure me.

I am very sad to find somebody here wanted to kill themselves, glad it worked out for the best.

[LittleGrizzly]

BTW i think people are strawmaning the front room guy, i think the x box was more of a last straw than the main reason he was doing it...

I think people need to consider the problems more, mental issues i think is a fairly straightforward one... as in a portion of it may be more down to thier mental state rather than personal issues... though im guessing it would usually be a mix of both in thier cases...

The harder one to think on is those who commit suicide without mental issues playing a factor...

I can understand this one somewhat having thought about it myself...

One of the main things is a lack of hope... thats the real big killer, life feels crap now... but it is only going to get worse from now on... whether its true or not the lack of hope is the biggest part. If you have nothing to look forward to but plenty of things to dread then just opting out of life seems the sensible option... dread, worries and all problems are gone...

Sure it means you miss out on any good stuff but usually there isn't a whole lot good in that persons life and they only expect things to get worse... so with a look at the pros and cons of thier life and how that will adjust in the future they get to the conclusion that it really isn't worth it...

[Fragony]

BTW i think people are strawmaning the front room guy, i think the x box was more of a last straw than the main reason he was doing it...

Yes. And I don't really appreciate it being dragged into the discussion in such a way, very thoughtless considering how recent that topic is.

[LittleGrizzly]

I don't so much mind people drawing on his experiences (although it should be done carefully and with sensitivity) but just the insulting of the guy... do some of you realise he may even read the backroom... and while internet insults may not be the most hurtful things the guy is in a bad place anyway...

He probably doesn't read the backroom anyway but i personally don't appreciate his desperation being mocked...

[Major Robert Dump]

There were actually times just out of college when things got so bad and rotten that I seriously considered suicide. I had the means, I had the plans, but my paternal grandfather committed suicide as did one of my dad's brothers shortly after, and I just couldn't put my father and grandma through that again as I'm not only my dads only child, but my grandmas only grandchild. Every time they visit those graves on memorial day they are both a mess for the rest of the day.

But honestly, that's the only thing that kept me from doing it. Oh, and I found the .org soon after.

I did not, however, talk about my plans with anyone. Ever. I have had plenty of friends and girlfriends who go "suicidal" only for it to be a cry for help or attention, so I have a special disdain for the ones who talk about it and use it as false threats. Exceptions are always available, of course.

Suicide does not always = mental instability. Many suicides are well-planned, well-executed, and the person in question will often seem at peace, seem happy and maybe even seem like they have a long term plan or goal mapped out, which I guess in a sort of way they do. I would be willing to wager that most People who really, really, really, really want to kill themselves don't advertise that fact.

But the false threats, grrr they make me so mad, are also used as a means for attention, which dilutes the attention from the people who are actually in need of help. It also desensitizes people from suicide threats, it lessens the impact of suicide prevention and in the long run it only hurts the people who truly need help.

[Fixiwee]

But the false threats, grrr they make me so mad, are also used as a means for attention, which dilutes the attention from the people who are actually in need of help. It also desensitizes people from suicide threats, it lessens the impact of suicide prevention and in the long run it only hurts the people who truly need help.

The desperation of other should not make you mad. Of course some people cry "suicide" out loud because they don't get enough attention, but know that you cannot messure your own problems with other ones.

[Samurai Waki]

I've been through some very desperate times, much like MRD. Everyone thought I had clinical depression, so I was getting treated for it, and after a few years it turned out to be Bi Polar Disorder. The Episodes of absolute Mania in itself actually made it much more likely for me to carry through with an attempt, as opposed to being depressed, which actually just makes you think about it more than anything.
In the long run, after you get your leg crushed by a truck, a brace you have to have to wear for 9 months, some 90+ stitches later and a left foot that makes it quite painful to run (even though I do, so I have to just bare with it) The idea of killing oneself really makes the whole episode much less pleasing to the palate. I've never really forgiven myself for traumatizing the guy who hit me, even though I must confess I was a just a dumbass sixteen year old with some severe problems. The Truck Driver has since forgiven me, and was just glad I was alive and relatively intact. Plus, as I've found out, life does get better. Not necessarily for everyone, but I'm not sure if that is either the minority or majority.

[rajpoot]

I think the point's already been mentioned, but I think it's all a matter of personal choice and point of view.....I mean a normal person will never be happy killing people, a sadist on the other hand likes causing pain, which to a normal people seems wrong.
Similarly while we might find life good and nice, another chap might find that life for him sucks. Maybe it's because he's young and he hasn't seen enough to learn that things get better when we work at them, and that darkness never lasts, maybe he does not know ideas we take for granted, and so with his limited knowledge he decides it's better to die than live.
Now, he thinks it's right, what we think is wrong.......he'll be happy doing it, even if we might not be. So the question is, can we convince that chap to see our point of view? Can we make him realize that life's worth living.....it's not always easy.....and anyway, who says we're right and he's wrong? Maybe it's we who're wrong and he's got it right, that life after death is going to be rosier. I mean, the chap next door who says he saw aliens outside the city, might just be right.....we can't claim to be right on everything because we're humans and we all are biased in one way or the other, we are all biased.
So the only legitimate reason we have to stop the suicidal person is that those around him might want him to live.....those who love him might want him to live. In that case, we're stopping him not because we want him to live, but because we want the people who want him to live to be happy....so this time, infact he's doing a favor to others by living, in a sense.

That all aside, I'm not supporting suicide. For one, even if life sucks, even if you know things are down, and will only get worse, even then, suicide is running away. It's like giving up. It's like being in the torture chamber, and spilling everything out, giving up........and even if a chap does not have the courage to keep living for himself, then any decent person must face the world for those who love him. Live for them then. You have nothing to do, you were going to end it all, so insted of taking that final break, you toil some more for those who love you......that's it.

(Edit: Again, someone might think that running away when the going gets too tough to handle is fine, so........)

The only kind of 'suicide' that is acceptable to the civilized people, I think, is the kind they have in the old stories. Great people finish of all they came to do on Earth, and have nothing more left to do, and so, wrapping it all up, they discard their bodies. It sounds cooler too.

[Craterus]

Simply put: No. Offer people a way out (a way down for a guy on a bridge) but don't actively prevent them from killing themselves. The right to one's own life always seemed like a clear-cut thing to me. I doubt many here would disagree that people have the right to live their lives how they please (within the law) and why should this be any different?

As for this so-called selfish issue. It's no more selfish than these so-called 'loved ones' demanding that someone be kept alive when they no longer want to be. Maybe someone picked up on this hypocrisy - I didn't read the whole thread - but I find it unbelievable the number of people that condemn suicidal cases on account of being selfish. You think they're living their lives for you?

[Caius]

Suicide is hard. It is not selfishness, it is the need to stop suffering. Because you are taking so much damage that you need to stop. That is why you do such a thing. Help them, if it is not possible to help them, then let them die.