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Thread: Factions

  1. #1
    Member Member Marcus-Aurelius's Avatar
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    Smile Factions

    Hi guys.
    I've been playing RTW mods for quite a while now and would like to compliment you on your mod, the mod is by far the best I've played. I especially like the attention to detail regarding history, suberb!!!

    This has probably been asked already but I am wondering about the inclusion of factions in your mod most notably the smaller ones. I realise that there are a limited number of faction slots but will the likes of Illyria, Syracuse, Pergamum, Numidia and Mauretania be in the game? I know some people may not see the point of these factions but they do make for more balanced gameplay and may prevent some ai factions becomming too large. Roll on the release date!!!

  2. #2
    urk! Member bobbin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions

    So far they've only confirmed Pergamon and hinted at a nomad faction of some sort.

    A numidian tribe is highly likely to be in there but they haven't confirmed yet. Also it think Illyria and Syracuse have been ruled out but i'm not certain on that.

    edit: Check out the new factions thread as it contains some arguements by team members as to why certain factions will not be included.
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=89142
    Last edited by bobbin; 04-01-2009 at 12:34.


  3. #3
    Sage of Bread Member Rilder's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions

    You will know when the EB team decides to tell us.
    Last edited by Rilder; 04-01-2009 at 14:52.

  4. #4
    EB Nitpicker Member oudysseos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions

    Look guys, the reason that there haven't been more faction previews, or that we haven't 'revealed' the faction list is that there is an ungodly amount of work that goes into building a faction. It's not just a matter of, 'Oh, a faction in x region would be cool'.

    Of course we have considered* or are considering an Illyrian faction, a Syracusan faction, Numidian factions, more Celtic factions, Greek factions and so on. We have access to all the same information that everyone else has, so you will hardly see new factions that no-one has ever heard of, and it's hardly giving anything away to say that there won't be a Chinese faction, or a Sub-Saharan African faction, or the Huns and so on.

    The point is that if you really think that there ought to be an Illyrian faction (or whatever), do a serious proposal. Oddly enough, two of the people who did so as fans later joined the team. Bear in mind that 'it would be cool' is not enough reason: you have to have verifiable historical sources that cover all the details, such as;

    a decent grasp of the history of the people involved,
    personal names (you need hundreds of these),
    a list of ethnicities relating to the EB trait system,
    names of regions, settlements and other locations,
    you need a working familiarity with the language that they spoke since EB does everything in native languages,
    detailed descriptions of everything related to military matters including archaeological references,
    a unit list derived from above,
    a workable and realistic system of government buildings, tech trees and cultural buildings (with names in the applicable language),
    unique landmarks, cultural information, religious information
    and then you need to model, skin and code the units.
    After that we can talk about reforms and scripted gameplay. Not to mention voicemods.

    And that's just a start. Even the basic research stage is hundreds of hours and thousands of words typed. SO that's the major point: no matter how legit or cool a faction is, of there is no one interested in doing the work then it's not gonna happen.










    * Considered is not the same as decided, guys.
    οἵη περ φύλλων γενεὴ τοίη δὲ καὶ ἀνδρῶν.
    Even as are the generations of leaves, such are the lives of men.
    Glaucus, son of Hippolochus, Illiad, 6.146



  5. #5
    Legatvs Member SwissBarbar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions

    Example:

    Odrysai







    a decent grasp of the history of the people involved


    The Odrysian state was the first Thracian kingdom that acquired power in the region, by the unification of many Thracian tribes under a single ruler, King Teres. Initially, the state included eastern Thrace and regions as far north as the mouths of the Danube. Later, its territory increased significantly and was contained in the following borders: the Black Sea to the east, Danube to the north, the region populated with the tribe Tribali to the north-west, and the basin of the river Strymon (Struma) to the south-west. This large territory was populated with a number of Thracian and Daco-Moesian tribes that united under the reign of a common ruler (king), and began to implement common internal and external policies. Those were favorable conditions for overcoming the tribal divisions which could lead gradually to the formation of a more stable ethnic community.

    According to the Greek historians Herodotus and Thucydides, a royal dynasty emerged from among the Odrysian tribe in Thrace around the end of the sixth century BC, which came to dominate much of the area and peoples between the Danube and the Aegean for the next century. Later writers, royal coin issues, and inscriptions indicate the survival of this dynasty into the early first century AD, although its overt political influence declined progressively first under Macedonian, later Roman, encroachment. Despite their demise, the period of Odrysian rule was of decisive importance for the future character of south-eastern Europe, under the Roman Empire and beyond. Under the Odrysians Greek became the language of administrators; Greek customs and fashions contributed to the recasting of east Balkan society. The Odrysians created the first state entity which superseded the tribal system in the east Balkan peninsula. Their kings were usually known to the outside world as kings of Thrace, although their power did not extend by any means to all Thracian tribes. Even within the confines of their kingdom the nature of royal power remained fluid, its definition subject to the dictates of geography, social relationships, and circumstance.
    Teres' son, Sitalces, proved to be a good military leader, forcing the tribes that defected the alliance to acknowledge his sovereignty. The rich state that spread from the Danube to the Aegean built roads to develop trade and built a powerful army. In 429 BC, Sitalces organized a massive campaign against the Macedonians, with a vast army from independent Thracian and Paionian tribes. According to Thucydides it included as many as 150,000 men, but was obliged to retire through failure of provisions, and the coming winter.[1]
    In the 4th century BC, the kingdom split itself in three smaller kingdoms, of which one, with the capital at Seuthopolis survived the longest. During the Hellenistic era it was subject at various times to Alexander the Great, Lysimachus, Ptolemy II, and Philip V, and was at one time overrun by the Celts, but usually maintained its own kings. During the Roman era its rulers were clients of Rome until Thrace was annexed as a Roman province in 46 AD.


    personal names (you need hundreds of these)
    Teres
    Sparadok
    Seuthes
    Amadok
    Cotys
    Cersobleptes
    etc.


    a list of ethnicities relating to the EB trait system,
    Same as Getae, but with a little more Hellenic/Makedonian influece


    names of regions, settlements and other locations,



    City names can be found in several sources.

    you need a working familiarity with the language that they spoke since EB does everything in native languages,
    detailed descriptions of everything related to military matters including archaeological references,
    a unit list derived from above,
    a workable and realistic system of government buildings, tech trees and cultural buildings (with names in the applicable language),
    unique landmarks, cultural information, religious information
    and then you need to model, skin and code the units.
    After that we can talk about reforms and scripted gameplay. Not to mention voicemods
    Again quite similar to the Getai, but with more Hellenic influences.



    SOURCES AND IDEA
    This is only an example, based on Wikipedia, where I copied this from, because I only had 15 minutes to do that.
    More valuable sources for this potential Faction would be Homer, Herodot and Thukydides.



    This faction could, as does Baktria, start as kind of a Satrapy to Makedonia or as an independant faction, like the Getai. I had no time to check yet, what status would be historically accurate.

    This people not only was the most powerful of all Thracian tribes, but also involved in several epic conflicts. In the 5th century BC they drove the Persian Empire out of Europe, when they invaded their lands to attack the Scythians, they fought the invading Celts under Brennus. They were Subject to Alexander the Great and friendly to Philipp V. and his son Perseus. Even when the Romans conquered large parts of Greece, they fought them, f.e. in the third Mithradic war.

    They had a high level of state-organization and social structure (hellenic model), far beyond tribe-society.

    Last edited by SwissBarbar; 04-01-2009 at 16:10.
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  6. #6
    EB Nitpicker Member oudysseos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions

    Damned quick work! Impressive. So what was going on in 272 BCE?
    οἵη περ φύλλων γενεὴ τοίη δὲ καὶ ἀνδρῶν.
    Even as are the generations of leaves, such are the lives of men.
    Glaucus, son of Hippolochus, Illiad, 6.146



  7. #7
    Legatvs Member SwissBarbar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions

    That's what I'm about to find out this evening. As far as I found out, they were dependent or at least "highly allied" *G* to Makedonia.
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  8. #8
    Legatvs Member SwissBarbar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions

    Well, it seems as if the Odrysai were in a crisis and then got into dependence from Makedonia under Philipp II and Alexander the Great.

    The invasion of the Celts affected the Thracians negatively.
    But when the Romans expanded towards Illyria and Greece, the Thracian tribes seemed to form a coalition in order to hold them from claiming their lands.

    But I don't find out, if they got independent again after Alexanders death, I only read that they were allies to Philipp V (238–179 BC) and later his son Perseus.
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  9. #9
    Member Member soibean's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions

    Im not one for skinning or translating ancient texts but if you'd like some one to do some research on a faction you guys are considering I will gladly raid Jstor/cambridge histories/local libraries/Perseus for some info. PM me if I can help
    Last edited by soibean; 04-01-2009 at 22:08.

  10. #10
    Member Member Phalanx300's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions

    Well, from the original EB we can see that they were independant. And judging from above they allied themselves with Makedonia in order to stand more powerfull.

    Thats just guessing work though. But they would make for a nice Tracian faction!

  11. #11
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: Factions

    Hadn't they been overrun by the Galatians at this time? They would "re-emerge" later, but around 272 BC they had been knocked out.
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  12. #12
    Member Member paullus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions

    yeah, they're not a legitimate faction in 272 BC. I'm a bit surprised we haven't seen someone try and put together a faction proposal for the Scordisci.
    "The mere statement of fact, though it may excite our interest, is of no benefit to us, but when the knowledge of the cause is added, then the study of history becomes fruitful." -Polybios


  13. #13

    Default Re: Factions

    Quote Originally Posted by SwissBarbar View Post
    That's what I'm about to find out this evening. As far as I found out, they were dependent or at least "highly allied" *G* to Makedonia.
    There was a reason for that.

    Kingdom of Tylis
    B.C.278, Commontorius, who has not crossed to Asia Minor and stayed in Thrace, founds the Kingdom of Tylis there. He was raiding all other Thraikians around him. Odrysai (those who remained free) sought the protection of the Maks.
    For more info on the Kingdom of Tylis...
    http://books.google.gr/books?id=fTf0...num=1#PPA81,M1

    Last edited by keravnos; 04-04-2009 at 22:51.


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  14. #14
    Legatvs Member SwissBarbar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions

    Ah, thank you, very interesting
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  15. #15
    Member Member paullus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions

    that was a very nice presentation on the faction, though...in 300 or 200 they'd be viable, but from about 280-210 there's no way.
    "The mere statement of fact, though it may excite our interest, is of no benefit to us, but when the knowledge of the cause is added, then the study of history becomes fruitful." -Polybios


  16. #16
    Legatvs Member SwissBarbar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions

    Thank you. Yes I see. As I wrote in my presentation, I'd see them starting like Baktria anyway: As dependent from another faction (Baktria = Satrapy of the Arche Seleukeia, Odrysai = ?)
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  17. #17
    Downgradez :( Member Iskander 3.1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions

    Impressive, Swiss!
    Strikeout!

  18. #18
    Member Member Phalanx300's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions

    Yes they would make a nice and unique Tracian faction with Celtic influence probably because of those Galatians.

    Just one of the many options.


    Maybe we, the fans, should compile a list of all possible inclusions to get a clearer picture on all possible factions?

  19. #19
    urk! Member bobbin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions

    Off the top of my head possibles could be: Arevaci*, Massylii*, Masaesyli*, Iverni, Brigantes, Aquitani, Helveti, Massalia, Syracuse, Nervii*, Boii*, Lugii*, Scordisci*, Dalmatae, Scythia, Bosphorian Kingdom*, Galatia, Kappadokia, Kartli*, Atropatene, Nabata, Ma'in, Qataban, Hadramaut*, Massagetae, Kambojas.

    * factions which in my personal opinion are very likley to be in EBII (this doesn't mean i think they'll all be in, for example the Boii OR Lugii might include but probably not both)
    Last edited by bobbin; 04-10-2009 at 01:55.


  20. #20
    Member Member Bucefalo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions

    I´d love to see some new iberian faction, like the Edetani, or celtiberian as the Arevaci. I don´t know if there were more powerbul iberian tribes besides these ones. Maybe the Cantabri or Vascones.

    And of course i would love to see Syracuse or other western greek faction

  21. #21
    Member Member Berg-i-dum's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions

    Quote Originally Posted by Bucefalo View Post
    I´d love to see some new iberian faction, like the Edetani, or celtiberian as the Arevaci. I don´t know if there were more powerbul iberian tribes besides these ones. Maybe the Cantabri or Vascones.

    And of course i would love to see Syracuse or other western greek faction
    I see somebody appart from me is missing the celtiberians
    "This war between the Romans and Celtiberians is called the fiery War, for while wars in Greece or Asia are settled with one or two pitched battles, the battles there dragged on, only brought to a temporary end by the darkness of the night. Both sides refused to let their courage flag or their bodies tire". Polybius.


  22. #22
    Speaker of Truth Senior Member Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions

    Quote Originally Posted by bobbin View Post
    Off the top of my head possibles could be: Arevaci*, Massylii*, Masaesyli*, Iverni, Brigantes, Aquitani, Helveti, Massalia, Syracuse, Nervii*, Boii*, Lugii*, Scordisci*, Dalmatae, Scythia, Bosphorian Kingdom*, Galatia, Kappadokia, Kartli*, Atropatene, Nabata, Ma'in, Qataban, Hadramaut*, Massagetae, Kambojas.

    * factions which in my personal opinion are very likley to be in EBII (this doesn't mean i think they'll all be in, for example the Boii OR Lugii might include but probably not both)
    How are you possible to list so many faction and have none right!?

    I must say you do have a couple of very interesting and new suggestions though. Some of which the team might not even have considered. The Ma'in especially for example I find quite a refreshing idea.

  23. #23
    urk! Member bobbin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions

    Quote Originally Posted by Moros View Post
    How are you possible to list so many faction and have none right!?
    Bah! you and your misinformation, I'm willing to bet good money that the Kartli are in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moros View Post
    I must say you do have a couple of very interesting and new suggestions though. Some of which the team might not even have considered. The Ma'in especially for example I find quite a refreshing idea.
    Yeah they are quite interesting but from what i've read they were more of a trading orginisation that a classic state(their society stuctue seems to have differed somewhat from the other Yemeni states) and didn't really hold much territory outside of their main cities.
    Hadramaut would be a more likely candidate as they appear to have been the main rival to Saba in the region. the main problem being that they are not as well attested to as the Ma'in.


  24. #24
    Legatvs Member SwissBarbar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions

    Actually I'd like very much to see the Helveti
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  25. #25
    Guitar God Member Mediolanicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions

    Quote Originally Posted by bobbin View Post
    Bah! you and your misinformation, I'm willing to bet good money that the Kartli are in.

    I hope it is misinformation, I was rather getting my hopes up for the Boii or Lugii!
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  26. #26
    Speaker of Truth Senior Member Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions

    Quote Originally Posted by bobbin View Post
    Bah! you and your misinformation, I'm willing to bet good money that the Kartli are in.

    Yeah they are quite interesting but from what i've read they were more of a trading orginisation that a classic state(their society stuctue seems to have differed somewhat from the other Yemeni states) and didn't really hold much territory outside of their main cities.
    Hadramaut would be a more likely candidate as they appear to have been the main rival to Saba in the region. the main problem being that they are not as well attested to as the Ma'in.
    Well the Ma'in had good control of their main cities and trading colonies. (as Medina or Iatrib(u)) was one of, though I think it was independant or as good as in our time frame) The vast wastelands around them and even the caravan routes were well some kind of no-man's land. You can't control vast lands which are full of trade caravans, migrating nomads and even worse raiders. Raiding parties are difficult to get rid of not only because of their swift and constant movement, but there also keep popping up new ones. Now anyways, an true invading army would of course be different. The Ma'in were certainly one of the biggest powers of Arabia though, and a refreshing Idea. They controlled a large area but I don't think we should include them to EB however. In our time frame they only grew weaker, and never even treid to expand or anything. Thier state stucture and organisation I'm not really familiar with but I doubt it had a real and strong central power.

    Hadramaut would indeed be a rival of saba, especially the later period. Unit wise and organisation wise it wouldn't be that different from the sabaeans either. So it wouldn't need too much new research or unit slots, etc... And while a major contender especially at the end and after our time frame, I'm not too sure about thier political importance at our start date. However it would make a sabaean campaign much more interesting and lively. So perhaps not a bad idea to include a Hadramaut or other south Arabian faction really. Not sure which one would be the best candidate though. Qataban has I think a little better info on them. And I expect them to be on about the same level of political importance at our start date.

    Either way none of these faction has yet be decided to include though, though it might not be such a bad idea though. Also note I'm not an expert on the Ma'in, Hadramaut or Qataban and everything is written from my (not always that good memory) so take what I said with a large grain of salt.

  27. #27
    urk! Member bobbin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions

    Taken form encyclopedia britannica online
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The Minaean kingdom (Maʿīn) lasted from the 4th to the 2nd century bc and was predominantly a trading
    organization that, for the period, monopolized the trade routes. References to Maʿīn occur earlier in Sabaean texts, where they seem to be loosely associated with the ʿĀmir people to the north of the Minaean capital of Qarnaw (now Maʿīn), which is at the eastern end of the Wadi al-Jawf and on the western border of the Ṣayhad sands. The Minaeans had a second town surrounded by impressive and still extant walls at Yathill, a short distance south of Qarnaw; and they had trading establishments at Dedān and in the Qatabānian and Hadramite capitals. The overwhelming majority of Minaean inscriptions come from Qarnaw, Yathill, and Dedān, and there is virtually no evidence of territorial possessions apart from the immediate vicinities of these three centres, which have more the aspect of typical “caravan cities.” A thin scattering of Minaean inscriptions has been found in places just outside Arabia, such as Egypt and the island of Delos, all manifestly resulting from far-flung trading activities; and texts from Qarnaw refer to a number of important points on the caravan routes, such as Yathrib (Medina) and Gaza, and also to interruption of trade by one of the several phases of warfare between Egypt and the Seleucids of Syria. An explicit mention of caravans is perhaps found in the expression mʿn mṣrn, interpreted by the scholar Mahmud Ali Ghul as “the Minaean caravaneers.”

    Minaean social structure differed from that of the other three, predominantly agricultural peoples. The latter were federations of communities (often termed by modern scholars “tribes,” though they were not genealogically based) grouped under a leading community, with the nation as a whole designated by the name of the hegemonial community, followed by the phrase “and the [associated] communities.” The Minaeans, however, were subdivided into groups of varying size and importance, some quite small, with none exercising a dominating role over the others. Among the other three peoples the office of “elder” (kabīr) was normally filled by the head of one of the associated communities in a national federation. Among the Minaeans, however, the kabīr was a biennially appointed magistrate controlling one of the trading settlements or, in some cases, invested with authority in all of them. Legislative functions were exercised by the king acting together with a council and representatives of all the Minaean social classes. Minaean inscriptions make no mention of wars undertaken by the king or the state; this suggests that Maʿīn may have enjoyed covenants of safe-conduct with their neighbours along the trade routes.
    Perhaps not the best source but it is quite informative, note the part talking about how none of their inscriptions mention wars conducted by the state of ruler. I would agree that the Minaeans should not be in EBII.
    Some stuff on the Hadramaut and Qataban from the same article.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Inscriptions from the Hadramite kingdom are scantier in number than from the Sabaean, Minaean, or Qatabānian. Yet the Hadramite was probably the wealthiest of them all. Hadhramaut and the Saʾkal area to the east (modern Dhofar province of the sultanate of Oman) are the only places in Arabia where climatic conditions make production of frankincense possible, and Pliny wrote that the whole of the produce was collected at the Hadramite capital, Shabwah, on the eastern fringe of the Ṣayhad sands, and taxed there before being handed over to the caravans that carried it to the Mediterranean and Mesopotamia. In addition, Hadhramaut was an entrepôt for Indian goods brought by sea and then forwarded by land. The caravan trade may have suffered to some degree from competition by Red Sea shipping, which, from the 1st century ad, began to sail through the Bab El-Mandeb Strait into the Indian Ocean. Nevertheless, as late as about ad 230 a king of Hadhramaut received missions from India and Palmyra (Tadmor), at the opposite ends of the long-standing trade route along which Hadhramaut occupied a central position. At Shabwah, French archaeological work begun in 1975 adjacent to the visible temple ruin has revealed a walled town of larger extent than any other ancient Yemeni site. The palace, on the opposite side of the town from the temple, was, according to the archaeological evidence, a truly magnificent building. The main port of Hadhramaut was at Cane on the bay of Biʾr ʿAlī; and the Hadramites had a settlement at Samhar-m (now Khawr Rawrī) on Qamar Bay in the Saʾkal region, founded about the turn of the Christian era.


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The heartland of the Qatabān people was Wadi Bayḥān, with the capital, Timnaʿ, at its northern end, and Wadi Ḥarīb, immediately west of Bayḥān. As in the case of Maʿīn, the earliest references are in Sabaean inscriptions; native Qatabānian inscriptions do not seem to antedate the 4th century bc. Timnaʿ was destroyed by fire at a date not easy to fix; pottery evidence has been thought to suggest the 1st century ad, but epigraphy points to a survival of the kingdom at least until the end of the 2nd century. Its fortunes had fluctuated: in the earliest Sabaean phase it was “liberated” by the Sabaeans from Awsānian domination in the above-mentioned defeat of Awsān. At some periods the Qatabānians themselves dominated a federacy similar to the Sabaean one, and at a relatively late date a ruler whom his subjects called “King of Qatabān” styled himself mukarrib of Qatabān. Inasmuch as Eratosthenes says that this people extended to “both seas”—i.e., the Red Sea and the Gulf of Aden—it might be inferred that there was some sort of Qatabānian presence in the southwest corner of the peninsula, an area later ruled by the Ḥimyarites.


    Here's the link http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...45968/Minaeans, also has a bunch of books suggested for further reading right at the bottom of the article.
    Last edited by bobbin; 04-10-2009 at 18:01.


  28. #28
    Speaker of Truth Senior Member Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions

    Well we'll see when the open slots get discussed again I'll bring it up and see. Though a fine candidate I'm afraid that not many members will be working on it, and we would end up with a faction which will be running behind. However a nice suggestion it is.

  29. #29
    urk! Member bobbin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions

    No worries it was a only a suggestion after all

    ps congratulations on having possibly the most impenetrable occultus sig of the whole team. All i can make out is a hand and possibly a face.


  30. #30
    Speaker of Truth Senior Member Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions

    Quote Originally Posted by bobbin View Post
    No worries it was a only a suggestion after all

    ps congratulations on having possibly the most impenetrable occultus sig of the whole team. All i can make out is a hand and possibly a face.
    None of those things are on the original sig though.

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