Switzerland

[Subotan]

Yes, I know CA has given it's official response as to why Switzerland wasn't included in the game (If I recall correctly, it was something along the lines of "We felt there were more important provinces elsewhere"). However, I think there's some issues that need to be addressed. I'm hoping that we will be able to discuss these like adults, and that the mods don't go Norton on our s, and pull a PIFTS.EXE on us (i.e. Deleting everything in sight), therefore turning a minor niggle into an out-of-control-hate-whirlwind.

There are several issues.

One, is the mysterious disappearance of Switzerland from early prototypes of E:TW. Therefore, according to the official explanation, CA must have changed it's mind somewhere along the development process. Why was that?

Proof of early screens:
http://www.kotaku.com.au/empire%20to...2020090301.jpg
http://pcmedia.ign.com/pc/image/arti...7025639799.jpg


Two. The name "Switzerland" doesn't even pop up when you hover the cursor over the Alps where Switzerland should be. This is quite strange, especially considering that they are normally detailed enough to locate the "South China Sea" in the East Indies Theatre for example, yet leaving a hole in the middle of Europe totally blank. What's up with that?

Three. There seems to be plenty of room for various factions. If you can include factions like Westphalia, and then have it replaced by Hesse when it rebels, then you certainly have space for Switzerland.

Four. The rumour doing the rounds is that the Swiss government pressured you to do it, due to their strict interpretation of neutrality. Does this have any substance?

Thanks

P.S. Could anyone find the thread where this was originally raised? I couldn't find it.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Maybe one of the dev's exes is Swiss.

[Subotan]

And that would be a reason not to include it...how? I'm Irish, and I'm overjoyed at the fact that Ireland is in the game.

[NagatsukaShumi]

I believe the Swiss neutrality was the official reason wasn't it? Rather than there being more important provinces (which is hardly an excuse to leave one out in the most important theatre, playable factions wise).

[Subotan]

Yes, but there are plenty of other countries that are neutral which are in the game e.g. Ireland/Sweden. Also, the Swiss didn't officially become neutral until 1815.

EDIT: And I've never heard that to be the official reason. Any Swiss citizens here that can complain to the gov if this turns out to be true?

[Marquis of Roland]

Well I guess in the end they had space for 1 province left, and decided that Moose Factory was more important to the game

[Subotan]

Lawl. You would have thought that moose, being neutral would have wanted to have been kept out of the game though. :]

[Julius_Nepos]

I must say what I found most curious was the fact that there isn't even a bit of flavor text when you hover over the void that used to be the Swiss Confederation. Even in the empty stretches of North America you at least get something like "Western Plains" yet it's as though no one even lives in that stretch of land in the Alps. That seems mysterious to me, and inconsistent with how other empty regions were handled. I do wonder just what was going on there, I mean EU3 has Switzerland in it without any apparent problems.

[Subotan]

As does Imperial Glory. It makes no sense!

[Den of Earth]

For Napoleon, Switzerland was critical to his Italian Campaign. He could never of "Crossed the Alps"on this map. I only mention this because Switzerland could of made strategy in this region a lot more interesting and challenging.

[Megas Methuselah]

Switzerland is already in the game, as the Swiss Confederation. Too bad they weren't included in the campaign map(s), though.

I'll provide some screenies sometime later.

[Ignoramus]

So the Swiss can emerge as a faction, but their homeland isn't included? Someone tell this can't be true.

Maybe CA baulked at creating a Swiss navy.

[Megas Methuselah]

So the Swiss can emerge as a faction, but their homeland isn't included? Someone tell this can't be true.

Maybe CA baulked at creating a Swiss navy.

No. They're included in the game as a faction. They just aren't included in the grand campaign.

[Ignoramus]

So you can fight custom battles with them?

[Megas Methuselah]

So you can fight custom battles with them?

If you're as wise as the fabled Megas Methuselah is, then perhaps you might be able to pull it off.

[pevergreen]

I look forward to your 'mods'.

[Grombeard]

I must say what I found most curious was the fact that there isn't even a bit of flavor text when you hover over the void that used to be the Swiss Confederation. Even in the empty stretches of North America you at least get something like "Western Plains" yet it's as though no one even lives in that stretch of land in the Alps. That seems mysterious to me, and inconsistent with how other empty regions were handled. I do wonder just what was going on there, I mean EU3 has Switzerland in it without any apparent problems.

EU3 is lying! So are all the teachers and the world maps you can buy everywhere... Switzerland just doesn't exist! They just want to make you THINK it exists! Have you been there? Do you know for sure that there aren't just a few mountains and deep forest where this so called "Switzerland" should be? Why did "they" always stay neutral, never making it big into history books? Right! They don't exist! It's like the city of Bielefeld in germany... it's a lie! They want to fool us, control us! BEWARE!!!

omg...

they're coming... help me!

[Dead Guy]

In fact, Switzerland is just something people confuse with Sweden. It is actually the same thing.

Perhaps they didn't put it in because soon there will be a black hole there anyway and it's too hard to model properly.

[Mr Frost]

Noting the rather obviously dubious nature of the C/As' "official reason" {to begin with , it has beem said there is room in the game engine for 300 factions which is a touch more than are in Empire , and the Swiss government wouln't risk public backlash over something that would make them look that petty and be difficult to enforce anyhow} , I'd say either the faction for some unknown reason involving things man was not meant to know bugged the game out {and somehow cursed the region it was located in} or someone at Sega made them take it out .

Corporate execs do all kinds of petty crap and rarely does it come to light until well after the shareholders have lost money and the you-have-to-pay-me-millions-to-fire-me contract holding prat got their egos' worth .

With the engine supposed to handle 300 factions , the faction clearly existed in earlier builds , the region being not merely empty like wilderness areas but also impassable then it does seem to me that someone in an ivory tower at Sega has a grudge against the Swiss {mabey He/She/It ran afoul of some law there once} .

I think it's a sound theory .









Of course , I could be wrong and it is actually part of a cunning plot by intergalatic space aliens seeking to win a bet or mabey it was magic pixies , but my money says it sure as hell wasn't the faction limit {300 , enough to defend Thermopylae !} nor the Swiss Inquisition {which really would be unexpected} .

[Meneldil]

I believe the Swiss neutrality was the official reason wasn't it? Rather than there being more important provinces (which is hardly an excuse to leave one out in the most important theatre, playable factions wise).

Don't know where people got this idea, but it is stupid as hell.

Firstly, countries are not copyrighted. You don't need a country's approval to use it in a video game or movie.

Secondly, Switzerland appears in a lot of wargames, turn-based or real time strategy games, and nobody cared. It appears in MTW, in EUII and III, in Victoria, in Hearts of Iron, and the list goes on. If the Swiss government opposed the idea of having the country in a video game, then what about those?
Nonetheless, it would be pretty stupid as Switzerland musts represent what, 1% of CA sales?

Stop spreading that rumor until you have real proof of it, because honestly (and I mean no offense), making such baseless and ludicrous claims is somewhat ridiculous.
And if that's true (which I *highly* doubt), then the Swiss government would be ridiculous, and both Swiss and non Swiss people should make fun of it.

The reason provided by CA (couldn't be harsed to find the quote) is something among the lines of "We didn't want to have to many provinces, especially in Europe, and thus decided to ditch Switzerland".

[Postino]

I am personally of the opinion that the well off and gentlemanly developers at CA are hiding their profits in the tax heavens of the Swiss, therefore they wish to bring as little attention to the country as possible

[Subotan]

Come on CA, why hasn't there been an official response to my original four questions?

[Subotan]

No. They're included in the game as a faction. They just aren't included in the grand campaign.

http://totalwar.honga.net/empire_uni..._confederation

Proof.

[Megas Methuselah]

I don't need proof. I've played as them plenty of times on MP against some poor blokes who are restricted to the 12 "playable" factions.

Unless you're backing me up?

[Mr Frost]

I don't need proof.

You can't handle the proof !

[Subotan]

Unless you're backing me up?

Yes.

[Megas Methuselah]

I don't need your help, peasant.

[Jazzy]

I suppose the reason was that the production of 13 different set of uniforms for the Old Swiss Confederation would have bound too many ressources. :joke:

If you want to mod, see:*

Petitmermet, Roland - Rousselot, Lucien, Schweizer Uniformen 1700 - 1850. Die Uniformen der Truppen der eidgenössischen Orte und zugewandten von 1700 bis 1798 und der kantonalen Milizen von 1803 bis 1850, Bern 1976.

*Not easy to get outside of Switzerland.


From the web

Dragoons 1712 (Berne or Zurich):
http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...20090326075146

Territorial Infantry 1798 (Berne):
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...lzWalthard.jpg
- The unforms should be a dark green, the bicornes and tricornes dark grey close to black, afaik (back side on the right).
- The NC with the tricorne hat and the oldfashioned foot-gear in the middle of the picture is probably landstorm (the levy of the older men).
- The landfolk on the left are irregular levy.

Remarks:
1. Bicorne hats come up around 1770. I don't know when the Bicorne replaced the Tricorne in the Bernese Territorial Infantry regiments but I suppose between 1780 and 1790. Earlier the Tricorne was common. Another type of headgear is not known to me during the period.
2. Unform colors: I think dark green is late (after 1770), earlier is blue, sometimes red (Geneva). I have seen a painting with Lucerne militia men from mid 18th century. They had blue jackets and blue pantalons (afaik).
3. Uniforms and standartized equipment were introduced in the Old Swiss Confederation around 1712.
4. There was a major reform of the organization of the military in Berne following the prussian model of levy-classes 1770 or 1773 (I am not sure about the exacte date).

[geala]

Three theories are considered in the scientific society:

1. Matrix theory
The Confederation in the 18th c. was in reality occupied by aliens who blocked all borders. Therefore no real information exists over the country and her poor inhabitants. The reason for the black hole on the campaign map. What you see in the books and internet is only fake spread by the aliens.

2. World domination theory
ETW needs balanced factions. The army of the united kantons of the Confederation, if depicted correctly, would have been so strong that no player would have had a chance against it. Huge problems for MP also.

3. Hollow way theory
A nearly deadly struggle among the CA devs about the Swiss special unit. The game director desired special commando crossbow and rope armed mountain troops (Tell Devils) but to avoid mutiny of the crew the whole Confederation was abandoned instead. The ropes and hooks idea however remained; they were given to all infantry for sieges.

[Jazzy]

When I have some money left, I'll buy the mentioned book and can give more informations to modders.