Can square formation be fixed?

**A Very Super Market** · 04-03-2009, 22:31

It is realistic that infantry squares are vulnerable to artillery, but there are just too little men in the game. Even on ultra size, 160 men is not enough to make a realistic 3-rank infantry square.

**antisocialmunky** · 04-03-2009, 22:33

They don't even get any sort of realistic cavalry protection because ETW Horses Know No Fear(TM). They just get ridiculous anti-horse bonuses while in square.

**Marquis of Roland** · 04-03-2009, 22:55

Ok, I agree with 160 being a little too small to form square. I guess I'm even ok with horse completely overunning my square and still get pwned because of anti-cav bonus. 1 unit of line infantry can probably stand up to 6 units of melee cav.

However, 2 missile cav can easily destroy a square. All they gotta do is run 1 unit close to the square so that maybe 2 or 3 horses are meleeing. So that prevents the whole square from shooting, because it can't shoot while even 1 soldier is in melee. So you have the other cav unit standing off at POINT BLANK range just unloading volley after volley into the square, and these dumb infantry is just standing there like they're lined up for a firing squad.

That is the issue I have problems with.

**antisocialmunky** · 04-03-2009, 23:01

Its more realistic to take 4 units of line infantry and some grenadiers. :-\

**Tsavong** · 04-03-2009, 23:53

Originally Posted by Marquis of Roland

Ok, I agree with 160 being a little too small to form square. I guess I'm even ok with horse completely overunning my square and still get pwned because of anti-cav bonus. 1 unit of line infantry can probably stand up to 6 units of melee cav.

However, 2 missile cav can easily destroy a square. All they gotta do is run 1 unit close to the square so that maybe 2 or 3 horses are meleeing. So that prevents the whole square from shooting, because it can't shoot while even 1 soldier is in melee. So you have the other cav unit standing off at POINT BLANK range just unloading volley after volley into the square, and these dumb infantry is just standing there like they're lined up for a firing squad.

That is the issue I have problems with.

I don't thing one unit of line could stand up to 6 units of melee cav your exaggerating a bit there.

Also you are quite right 1 unit of inventory vs 2 units of cav should loose. However if say one unit has only 2 horses in melee (quite how you stop the rest of the unit getting involved I don't know) you get involved on your dumb infantry's behalf and do some micro to tell them to charge into the dragoon regiment in melee with them 1 v 1 they should still win all be it taking losses. Then the other player or the AI has a chose to make ether shoot into the melee fight and hit its own men or charge in itself.

Or you could send your cav to drive of the enemy cav.

Also infantry is quite strong in Empire especially Guards I don't think it needs to be even stronger I think the balance between cav and inf str is about right as it is.

One last thing did point blank relay need to be in caps shouting at us?

**Kraxis** · 04-04-2009, 00:10

Obviously something needs fixing.

The square should shoot. That makes infantry a little too strong, as cavalry could beat a square if determined enough. That's just plainly impossible now. However it is equally easy to avoid the square and just bypass it for some juicy artillery or generals. That should be punished by flanking shots and rearshots by the square as the cavalry passes by.

So let them shoot all round, but tone down the offensive bonusses against cavalry in melee.

**Didz** · 04-04-2009, 00:24

Interestingly, and somewhat strangely, infantry rarely fired when in square and on the rare occassions when cavalry actually managed to break a square, it was usually due to some freak accident rather than courage or determination.

There are some really interesting eyewitness accounts of cavalry v infantry in square amongst the Waterloo letters, and Hofshoerer's books on the Waterloo Campaign also has some first hand accounts from official Prussian Army reports.

The thing that is unrealistic is the point made by Antisocialmunkey e.g. Real horses aren't stupid, and can't be trained to be stupid. Its that more than anything that makes a square a good defence against cavalry.

**Kraxis** · 04-04-2009, 06:03

Originally Posted by Didz

Interestingly, and somewhat strangely, infantry rarely fired when in square and on the rare occassions when cavalry actually managed to break a square, it was usually due to some freak accident rather than courage or determination.

There are some really interesting eyewitness accounts of cavalry v infantry in square amongst the Waterloo letters, and Hofshoerer's books on the Waterloo Campaign also has some first hand accounts from official Prussian Army reports.

The thing that is unrealistic is the point made by Antisocialmunkey e.g. Real horses aren't stupid, and can't be trained to be stupid. Its that more than anything that makes a square a good defence against cavalry.

If you go by Waterloo, then yes. However there was a French square that was basically run down in Spain. They didn't actually do anything wrong, but the cavalry made contact and pushed through. Then unluckily the commanding officer got knocked down and then the infantry lost courage obviously.

Horses aren't stupid, but they are a herd animal, and they can be trained to do absolutely insane things. It is about trust. When you see horses go on those jumping courses, the obstacles are plainly not scary. But to a horse they are. They look like they can rip it's belly open, break it's legs, and it doesn't know what's behind it. There is a reason they don't always jump. But mostly they do.
Horses in the day were training to not be scared of musketry, if they were scared of that they were basically little better than draftanimals.
The fear they had to face was the seemingly impassable wall of men in a formation. That they could be trained to not exactly ignore, but they could be taught to trust their rider. Medieval heavy cavalry rode down solid formations often enough without scattering to the wind. They didn't always win, but they did slam head first into enemy infantry. Like at Bouvines (there we both have winning head first and losing).

Horses can be trained to run at a living wall. Hell, police horses do so all the time. And don't bring up pointy things, horses have an eyesight that is pretty poor, they can only see pointy things like bayonets up close and only if it's to the sides. Dead ahead they can't see them (at the ranges where the things are within the eyesight overlap). That is partly why it is both a challenge and a possiblity to train them.

**Tsavong** · 04-04-2009, 00:25

A Square dose shoot as long as its not in a melee fight with something. I think the same applys to inf if it is not in a square when its in a melee fight too.

Also TW horses have always been stupid they would after all charge headlong into pikes in MTW, RTW and M2TW unless you told them to go around.

**Marquis of Roland** · 04-04-2009, 01:40

Gah! All I want is for the square formation to fire either individually, or by side, and not a 4-side volley!

I do not, in any way, want to make them "stronger", I just want to change the way they shoot.

@Zerg -
The AI was the square and I was 2 units of cavalry, therefore I cannot get "involved"

. I tried 1 unit of guard infantry (black watch) against 6 units of hussars or melee cossacks (AI) and the square won (on normal). They are deployed on a slight hill though, I didn't move the square in deployment phase. Black watch DOES have higher than normal melee stats for infantry though. I did these custom battles as a bit of informal unit testing, not as a full fledged battle.

@Kraxis -
Agreed.

@Didz -
Yes, fearless horses are more unrealistic. Now I'm not saying I want my square to pump out constant bullets, I just like to see the other side of the square thats not in melee at least fire off a musket every once in awhile if there's something in front of them. Or maybe dance a jig. Anything lol.

And sorry for caps! Gah!

**Kobal2fr** · 04-04-2009, 10:28

Originally Posted by Kraxis

Obviously something needs fixing.

The square should shoot. That makes infantry a little too strong, as cavalry could beat a square if determined enough. That's just plainly impossible now. However it is equally easy to avoid the square and just bypass it for some juicy artillery or generals. That should be punished by flanking shots and rearshots by the square as the cavalry passes by.

So let them shoot all round, but tone down the offensive bonusses against cavalry in melee.

Huh ? I'm pretty sure squares do shoot all around, although obviously their weight of fire is lacking since 3/4th of the men are facing another direction.