Roman Battle Formation

[antisocialmunky]

But this would be in melee. IMHO, the biggest problem is pulling back with that huge shield and not having it get caught on anything or having to hold it in such a way that makes you unable to defend yourself. More realistically you would also have to take into consideration that it probably wasn't just the first row but the first one or two rows that were actively engaged(enemy units penetrating or being compressed). TW is a little too neat sometimes in its depiction of formation fighting.

Realistically it probably happened during lulls in battle since many types of enemies would attack in waves. So the rotation would take place between waves if the idea was to absorb each charge with fresh men while the enemy slowly wore down.

[geala]

I'm just waiting for a hint to a source for this idea of combat. Afaik it is an idea of a Italian reenactment group and strongly opposed by many others, isn't it? I think it's unlikely that it could succeed in battle. It's far better imho to reinforce with whole units. But who knows?

[Aulus Caecina Severus]

I found this interesting treaty studying what are the parameters that influence a battle.
Here we mention the effects of rotation, the number of ranks and morale.
says that many ranks are not better than a few (see Cannae).
Also said that veterans and bravest are back in the ranks because they know better to resist anxiety.


http://utenti.lycos.it/campagneparal...sur-combat.pdf

(this is an italian version)

The pages of interest are: p. 9, 10, 11 but there is also many interesting parts.

Unfortunately i think M2TW engine can only do formations static and fixed property (such as Greek or barbarian) when the second rank begin battle only when the first rank are died or completely exaust.

[gostisa]

The sorta of rank rotation depicted in the movie is BS, it is simply imposible as ranks would compres under presure. Maybe it would work during the battle pulse but that only happens after several minutes of intese combat when man on both sides are already exousted after a "pushing mach" even the man behind the front ranks would suffer this.
Second thing that is a bit disturbing too me, if this would happen during a "push", is that after giving a front, most likely the whole unit would colapse as it gives the oppositon a small but not neglectible "charging space".
Third, sichronization would have too be beyond modern day and only soldier with years of traning would be able too perform it without having holes and gapes in front line(not a good idea during a HtH combat).

So most likely front soldier would fall back from front ranks only after he lost his weapon or shield and how that worked in a heat of battle is more or less a mistery, but surly it was way more chaotic than depicted.



PS: ACS could u possibly put that source up in english or german my italian sucks as it is.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I believe this concept originates with Tacitus (less than reliable on military matters, he says auxilleries used longer swords for ex.).

However, Tacitus records a rolling advance, which makes some sense, as the ranks move through each other the first two rotate to reduce fatigue and so that the enemy is constantly presented with an attacker.

In retreat it would work in reverse, so that the enemy was always presented with a static, solid, front.

[antisocialmunky]

I believe this concept originates with Tacitus (less than reliable on military matters, he says auxilleries used longer swords for ex.).

However, Tacitus records a rolling advance, which makes some sense, as the ranks move through each other the first two rotate to reduce fatigue and so that the enemy is constantly presented with an attacker.

In retreat it would work in reverse, so that the enemy was always presented with a static, solid, front.

This is how I've always imagined it working - a sort of leap frogging advance. Do you have the exact source so we can have more debate fodder?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

This is how I've always imagined it working - a sort of leap frogging advance. Do you have the exact source so we can have more debate fodder?

It's in the Agricola, I don't have the Latin here, I'll look it up.

[Aulus Caecina Severus]

PS: ACS could u possibly put that source up in english or german my italian sucks as it is.

Sure, my friend.

When you are in this page, click on plain_text to download:

http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu...ookup?num=7294

PS: my Lusitani cry vengeance ...

[gostisa]

I read the englisch version and too some extend that is plossible.

What the base for rotation troops, is essentialy a battle pulse that occurse becouse of fear, if u r able too confront the first charge u'll get a battle pullse that will allow u too rotate troops, still its very very risky in my opinion and nothing like depicted in the movie.

Later it talks abut deeper ranks not giving any advantage and its so so. The principle for deper ranks is only when full army is commited into the push, and yes this type is very easy too disrupt if flanked or completly stoped, thats why romans stoped using it too a ceartian extend. Deeper ranks only help u if u have a steady push with good flak support, nothing new.