Star Wars: The Old Republic

[a completely inoffensive name]

Not buying it on principle of story. They retconned KOTOR 2 and ruined the story of Revan.

[Centurion1]

ugh..... mmo's. The ony one i have ever played is runescape and i will never play another.

MMO's= wasted time, grinding, MONTHLY fees, sad sad people often.

Its the monthly fees that truly get to me. Especially when i pay for the box and then i get to pay per month...... how much is WOW like 10 a month?

[econ21]

Not buying it on principle of story. They retconned KOTOR 2 and ruined the story of Revan.

I haven't paid attention to story issues - what have they changed about Revan's story?

Its the monthly fees that truly get to me. Especially when i pay for the box and then i get to pay per month...... how much is WOW like 10 a month?

Well, ultimately you decide if the price is right for you. WOW has had so much content that I feel I got my money's worth. However, right now, I feel I've done as much as I want to (or can), so I've stopped subscribing.

I rather like the "free to play" model of Dungeons and Dragons online and Lord of the Rings online (LOTRO). You can subscribe for a month or whatever to enjoy all the new content, then you can drop by as a free player to do a more limited range of things when you like - perhaps buying a few "quest packs" if you want to continue raiding or whatever.

You can't judge MMOs from Runescape. WOW is an incredibly polished game that puts most single player games to shame in terms of the level of development effort it has received. (Just playing other good RPGs like LOTRO or Dragon Age, you appreciate how well WOW has done various things like facilitating pick-up groups or balancing classes).

[Centurion1]

no its not runescape i truly dislike them because of the fees and because of the people and negative setreotypes associated with them. the only people irl ive known who play them simply reinforce those stereotypes.

[Graphic]

I wish they'd make a proper KotOR 3. First two are classics. MMOs don't offer that personal experience that Bioware games (usually) offer.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Massive spoilers in my post, so don't read if you never played KOTOR 1 or 2

I haven't paid attention to story issues - what have they changed about Revan's story?

Well, in KOTOR 2 you learn from Kreia that Revan never really fell to the dark side. As Revan and Malak chased the Mandalorian Fleet to the furthest reaches of the outer rim they cam across the "True Sith" a collective that was pretty much unexplained by Kreia in KOTOR 2. When Revan came across and discovered the "True Sith", he being the tactical genius that he was realized that the Republic was too fragile and not able to withstand the coming attack by the "True Sith", thus he decided to take his army and his followers and convert them into a massive dark side army, fueled by the Star Forge which he also discovered during his campaigns in the Mandalorian Wars. This he figured would be the only chance for the galazy to survive the new invaders. If he could conquer the galaxy before the true sith invaded, he would be able to repel and destroy the invaders and save the galaxy.

In short, Revan only pretended to be the Dark lord of Sith in order to save the galaxy in the long run. Malak was not nearly as smart or strong willed as Revan was and actually did become consumed by the dark side, turning into the ultra evil villain that he is in KOTOR 1.

In KOTOR 2 it is revealed that after defeating Malak and the star forge, Revan went back into the unknown in order to find the true sith again and confront them in some other way, or otherwise stall them to give the republic enough time to recuperate to defend itself.

It is backed up by numerous statements in KOTOR 2 that Revan did not destroy everythign in his path but merely went out of his way to minimize the amount of damage done to the Republic before having them surrender. He captured military bases and shipyards instead of destroying them whereas Malak decimated entire planets for the heck of it (see Taris).

This is all crossed out according to the new MMO timeline. KOTOR 2 never happened.

Now Revan and Malak met the "true sith" which are actually regular sith that fled from the Great Hyperspace War to an uncharted outer rim world and rebuilt themselves into another Sith empire by the time of the MMO. Revan and Malak met the emperor of the sith and fell to the dark side and became typical bad guys. The emperor told them to capture the star forge for the this unknown sith empire in order to advance the plans for invasion by a few hundred years. Revan and Malak got greedy though and tried to use the star forge to take over the galaxy for themselves.

Then Revan was captured, became good, saved the galaxy, blew up the star forge and the MMO timeline does not elaborate on what he did after KOTOR 1. There is a book coming out in a few months dedicated to telling the full story of Revan, which will give the definitive timeline and actions of what Revan did before and after KOTOR 1. I hope it is not an epic failure.


But yeah, basically they turned Revan from a very nuanced and unique character that defied the polarization of good vs evil that star wars loves to throw in our faces, into yet another example of the polarization of good vs evil with no realness to any of it.

The "true sith" which could have been an exciting new villain/force in the Star Wars universe become yet another rehash of the Empire, except now with KOTOR art design.

And the only reason why all this butchering of a great story happened in the first place is because Galaxies was mismanaged to death with crappy game changing patches that no one liked. And of course in order to have a great MMO you need to two sides that are fighting each other because there is absolutely no way you could have an MMO without some sort of war going on as a background. That would take imagination.

Star Wars has the crappiest extend universe out of any sci-fi I.P. All it is one war after another. Not even Luke Skywalker bringing balance to the force does anything to stop the cycle because Legacy has decided that only 140 years after the battle of Yavin, there is another Empire in control of the galaxy.

I ******* hate it all so much. And I hate LucasArts. And I hate whoever wrote the plot for this terrible MMO.

[johnhughthom]

Not even Luke Skywalker bringing balance to the force does anything to stop the cycle.

Wasn't it Anakin Skywalker? But yes, Star Wars extended universe is a blight on the originals' legacy. Apart from two forum based mafia games...

[a completely inoffensive name]

Wasn't it Anakin Skywalker? But yes, Star Wars extended universe is a blight on the originals' legacy. Apart from two forum based mafia games...

The whole prophecy is practically garbage now. Yes, technically it is Anakin Skywalker bringing balance to the force, but if they are going to go and break the prophecy in the EU by having more sith bad guys conquer the galaxy, let us just call what Return of the Jedi really is, Luke Skywalker bringing his dad back to the light who promptly did the last piece of work that needed to be done. Luke pulled all the weight.

[Sarmatian]

Massive spoilers in my post, so don't read if you never played KOTOR 1 or 2

Well, in KOTOR 2 you learn from Kreia that Revan never really fell to the dark side. As Revan and Malak chased the Mandalorian Fleet to the furthest reaches of the outer rim they cam across the "True Sith" a collective that was pretty much unexplained by Kreia in KOTOR 2. When Revan came across and discovered the "True Sith", he being the tactical genius that he was realized that the Republic was too fragile and not able to withstand the coming attack by the "True Sith", thus he decided to take his army and his followers and convert them into a massive dark side army, fueled by the Star Forge which he also discovered during his campaigns in the Mandalorian Wars. This he figured would be the only chance for the galazy to survive the new invaders. If he could conquer the galaxy before the true sith invaded, he would be able to repel and destroy the invaders and save the galaxy.

In short, Revan only pretended to be the Dark lord of Sith in order to save the galaxy in the long run. Malak was not nearly as smart or strong willed as Revan was and actually did become consumed by the dark side, turning into the ultra evil villain that he is in KOTOR 1.

Also spoiler for those who haven't played KOTOR 1 and 2

I don't think that's true. Revan didn't pretend he fell to the dark side, so that he could unite the galaxy. He fell to the dark side truly, even though his desire was to do good ultimately. In order to defeat the Mandalorians, he became like them, ruthless, efficient, calculating, despising weakness. He encountered "True Sith" which may as well have been an idea, and thought that in order to protect the galaxy, galaxy must be united under strong leadership. Even though his intention was noble originally, he became corrupted somewhere in the way, like that Nietzche quote, He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster.

The biggest problem I have with changing lore is that "True Sith" suddenly became a political entity, bent on destruction and domination. When playing Kotor 2, I was more under an impression that True Sith were an abstract notion, the realization that the Republic is weak, corrupt, dependent on bureacrats and that when a serious threat appears, republic will perish unless united under strong leadership. Kreia's words that the Republic foolishy believes they have destroyed the Sith because Sith can not be destroyed as it is an idea, a belief, seems to reinforce this position.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Also spoiler for those who haven't played KOTOR 1 and 2

I don't think that's true. Revan didn't pretend he fell to the dark side, so that he could unite the galaxy. He fell to the dark side truly, even though his desire was to do good ultimately. In order to defeat the Mandalorians, he became like them, ruthless, efficient, calculating, despising weakness. He encountered "True Sith" which may as well have been an idea, and thought that in order to protect the galaxy, galaxy must be united under strong leadership. Even though his intention was noble originally, he became corrupted somewhere in the way, like that Nietzche quote, He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster.

The biggest problem I have with changing lore is that "True Sith" suddenly became a political entity, bent on destruction and domination. When playing Kotor 2, I was more under an impression that True Sith were an abstract notion, the realization that the Republic is weak, corrupt, dependent on bureacrats and that when a serious threat appears, republic will perish unless united under strong leadership. Kreia's words that the Republic foolishy believes they have destroyed the Sith because Sith can not be destroyed as it is an idea, a belief, seems to reinforce this position.

More spoilers

What you are saying is possible, but I think the dialogue from 1 and 2 lean more towards my interpretation. Tomorrow when I get home from uni I will start looking up some dialogue from the games that I recall. I distinctly remember there being a line talking about how Revan did not annihilate everything like your typical fallen jedi/ Sith master. He spared some regions that would be deemed critical when defending against an invasion coming to destroy the galaxy, and only destroyed that which would allow him to press forward to a Republic surrender, not a complete destruction of it. Really, a Sith master doesn't care about lives and would charge in if he knew he would win and kill everyone and everything, which is what Malak eventually did. Will gather more info and post here again soon.

In KOTOR 2, the "true sith" very much abstract and not explained at all. The idea of what Sith is, is very much unexplained and open to interpretation. I feel that when Kreia talks about what Sith is, she means in the basic sense of what distinguishes a Sith from anything else. A Sith is death. It is not power or "the dark side", it is pure death. The cold hand coming down upon you that cannot be stopped, is from the hands of a powerful Sith, no one else. Between Sion and Nihilus, Nihilus is the real Sith. Sion is simply an angry man who wants power and when you finally get him to stop being angry and let go, he dies. Nihilius needs death, he craves it. That is all he wants and all he strives for. This is what I feel the "true sith" should have been. This is when the Yuuzhan Vong should have came into play in the Star Wars EU.

Canderous talks about coming across a Yuuzhan Vong ship during his early years in the Mandalorian Fleet.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Yuuzh...g#Pre-invasion

The "true sith" as I envisioned it, is a threat that is truly more evil than your most evil Sith master. The Yuuzhan Vong are not from the Star Wars galaxy and are not connected to the lifespans in it through the force, they don't know of the force. The Sith conquer in order to gain power over everything else and use killing as a way to attain it. The Yuuzhan Vong really don't want power, they have no need for life because the force is nothing to them, they only want death, they only want the galaxy to themselves. So in that sense I feel like they could have been the "true sith" that kreia talked about.

This would make quite an epic story imo. One of Kreia's main objectives was the destruction of the force because she felt that the destruction caused by endless Sith vs Jedi conflicts would never end and allow everyone to die due to the true sith coming about and wiping the floor out of a weakened galaxy/republic. What amazing story writing would it have been if Kreia succeeded in destroying the Jedi and Sith orders completely and KOTOR 3 connected the first two by signalling the Yuuzhan Vong coming in, and the galaxy now needs the users of the force to gain the upper hand in pushing back this truly alien threat, thus bringing back an eventual rehash of the Sith vs Jedi endless conflicts once the Vong had been pushed back and defeated.

In short I feel that when Kreia is talking about the Republic foolishly thinking they destroyed the Sith, she is stating that you cannot kill the Sith because to be Sith is the idea that everything must die. I think the "true sith", whatever they might be, is the epitome of death in the sense that there really is no other motivation behind this group or idea where as the Sith philosophy only uses death as a stepping stone to gaining power.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Ahh, as I was looking up quotes about Revan's military tactics, it seems that the question of where Revan's loyalties lie has been a question tackled many times already with no definitive answer until this crap MMO came out.

http://swforums.bioware.com/viewtopi...42828&forum=76
http://swforums.bioware.com/viewtopi...09824&forum=76

[lars573]

Also spoiler for those who haven't played KOTOR 1 and 2

I don't think that's true. Revan didn't pretend he fell to the dark side, so that he could unite the galaxy. He fell to the dark side truly, even though his desire was to do good ultimately. In order to defeat the Mandalorians, he became like them, ruthless, efficient, calculating, despising weakness. He encountered "True Sith" which may as well have been an idea, and thought that in order to protect the galaxy, galaxy must be united under strong leadership. Even though his intention was noble originally, he became corrupted somewhere in the way, like that Nietzche quote, He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster.

The biggest problem I have with changing lore is that "True Sith" suddenly became a political entity, bent on destruction and domination. When playing Kotor 2, I was more under an impression that True Sith were an abstract notion, the realization that the Republic is weak, corrupt, dependent on bureacrats and that when a serious threat appears, republic will perish unless united under strong leadership. Kreia's words that the Republic foolishy believes they have destroyed the Sith because Sith can not be destroyed as it is an idea, a belief, seems to reinforce this position.

No the "True Sith" were a political entity. There are lines of dialogue in KOTOR2 about how the Mandalore of the great crusade was pushed into attacking the Republic by the True Sith. And that when Revan personally fought the Mandalore he sensed that, and then proceeded to rip his mind apart trying trace what it was. And although Kreia's position on things can be cloudy it's mean't to sound like some where out there unknown dark places some remnant of the old Sith still lingers waiting. Older than the tombs Revan loots in KOTOR1.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Kreia literally says that Korriban and Malachor V are the fringes of the true Sith's influence, and are actually the newest of the Sith's buildings.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Question: If this game fails massively, will LucasArts or EA declare bankruptcy?

[Jolt]

Not buying it on principle of story. They retconned KOTOR 2 and ruined the story of Revan.

Not knowing anything of the game besides KOTOR 1, the narrator looked like Bastila, and the Sith fellows originally looked exactly like Revan and Malak.

I was disapoint.

But HOLY what an epic trailer!