Star Wars: The Old Republic

[a completely inoffensive name]

Massive spoilers in my post, so don't read if you never played KOTOR 1 or 2

I haven't paid attention to story issues - what have they changed about Revan's story?

Well, in KOTOR 2 you learn from Kreia that Revan never really fell to the dark side. As Revan and Malak chased the Mandalorian Fleet to the furthest reaches of the outer rim they cam across the "True Sith" a collective that was pretty much unexplained by Kreia in KOTOR 2. When Revan came across and discovered the "True Sith", he being the tactical genius that he was realized that the Republic was too fragile and not able to withstand the coming attack by the "True Sith", thus he decided to take his army and his followers and convert them into a massive dark side army, fueled by the Star Forge which he also discovered during his campaigns in the Mandalorian Wars. This he figured would be the only chance for the galazy to survive the new invaders. If he could conquer the galaxy before the true sith invaded, he would be able to repel and destroy the invaders and save the galaxy.

In short, Revan only pretended to be the Dark lord of Sith in order to save the galaxy in the long run. Malak was not nearly as smart or strong willed as Revan was and actually did become consumed by the dark side, turning into the ultra evil villain that he is in KOTOR 1.

In KOTOR 2 it is revealed that after defeating Malak and the star forge, Revan went back into the unknown in order to find the true sith again and confront them in some other way, or otherwise stall them to give the republic enough time to recuperate to defend itself.

It is backed up by numerous statements in KOTOR 2 that Revan did not destroy everythign in his path but merely went out of his way to minimize the amount of damage done to the Republic before having them surrender. He captured military bases and shipyards instead of destroying them whereas Malak decimated entire planets for the heck of it (see Taris).

This is all crossed out according to the new MMO timeline. KOTOR 2 never happened.

Now Revan and Malak met the "true sith" which are actually regular sith that fled from the Great Hyperspace War to an uncharted outer rim world and rebuilt themselves into another Sith empire by the time of the MMO. Revan and Malak met the emperor of the sith and fell to the dark side and became typical bad guys. The emperor told them to capture the star forge for the this unknown sith empire in order to advance the plans for invasion by a few hundred years. Revan and Malak got greedy though and tried to use the star forge to take over the galaxy for themselves.

Then Revan was captured, became good, saved the galaxy, blew up the star forge and the MMO timeline does not elaborate on what he did after KOTOR 1. There is a book coming out in a few months dedicated to telling the full story of Revan, which will give the definitive timeline and actions of what Revan did before and after KOTOR 1. I hope it is not an epic failure.


But yeah, basically they turned Revan from a very nuanced and unique character that defied the polarization of good vs evil that star wars loves to throw in our faces, into yet another example of the polarization of good vs evil with no realness to any of it.

The "true sith" which could have been an exciting new villain/force in the Star Wars universe become yet another rehash of the Empire, except now with KOTOR art design.

And the only reason why all this butchering of a great story happened in the first place is because Galaxies was mismanaged to death with crappy game changing patches that no one liked. And of course in order to have a great MMO you need to two sides that are fighting each other because there is absolutely no way you could have an MMO without some sort of war going on as a background. That would take imagination.

Star Wars has the crappiest extend universe out of any sci-fi I.P. All it is one war after another. Not even Luke Skywalker bringing balance to the force does anything to stop the cycle because Legacy has decided that only 140 years after the battle of Yavin, there is another Empire in control of the galaxy.

I ******* hate it all so much. And I hate LucasArts. And I hate whoever wrote the plot for this terrible MMO.

[johnhughthom]

Not even Luke Skywalker bringing balance to the force does anything to stop the cycle.

Wasn't it Anakin Skywalker? But yes, Star Wars extended universe is a blight on the originals' legacy. Apart from two forum based mafia games...

[Jolt]

Not buying it on principle of story. They retconned KOTOR 2 and ruined the story of Revan.

Not knowing anything of the game besides KOTOR 1, the narrator looked like Bastila, and the Sith fellows originally looked exactly like Revan and Malak.

I was disapoint.

But HOLY what an epic trailer!

[jirisys]

KOTOR=somewhat bad characters but good finished gameplay.
KOTOR2=great characters but unfinished and rushed gameplay. However I loved all the concepts and complications of the plot.
TOR=Star Wars Galaxies, but with awful plot.

... Wait, just Star Wars Galaxies.

~Jirisys ()

[Samurai Waki]

I used to never write off games... but I'm just so tired of crap. Goodbye MMOs I hardly knew ye'.

[Motep]

This just ruined a long standing vague anticipation.

[Graphic]

KOTOR=somewhat bad characters but good finished gameplay.
KOTOR2=great characters but unfinished and rushed gameplay. However I loved all the concepts and complications of the plot.

I still liked it a lot, but KotOR 2 is such a missed opportunity. If everything that got cut was included, I think it would have easily been better than the first one.

Does anyone know if any of the restoration mods are actually done?

[Monk]

I still liked it a lot, but KotOR 2 is such a missed opportunity. If everything that got cut was included, I think it would have easily been better than the first one.

Does anyone know if any of the restoration mods are actually done?

The Sith Lords Restored Content Mod was released a while ago.

http://deadlystream.com/forum/forum/4-tslrcm/

Download link: http://deadlystream.com/forum/files/file/13-tslrcm/

Go forth and download, because it was a long time coming - and worth every moment of the wait.

[Sarmatian]

Massive spoilers in my post, so don't read if you never played KOTOR 1 or 2

Well, in KOTOR 2 you learn from Kreia that Revan never really fell to the dark side. As Revan and Malak chased the Mandalorian Fleet to the furthest reaches of the outer rim they cam across the "True Sith" a collective that was pretty much unexplained by Kreia in KOTOR 2. When Revan came across and discovered the "True Sith", he being the tactical genius that he was realized that the Republic was too fragile and not able to withstand the coming attack by the "True Sith", thus he decided to take his army and his followers and convert them into a massive dark side army, fueled by the Star Forge which he also discovered during his campaigns in the Mandalorian Wars. This he figured would be the only chance for the galazy to survive the new invaders. If he could conquer the galaxy before the true sith invaded, he would be able to repel and destroy the invaders and save the galaxy.

In short, Revan only pretended to be the Dark lord of Sith in order to save the galaxy in the long run. Malak was not nearly as smart or strong willed as Revan was and actually did become consumed by the dark side, turning into the ultra evil villain that he is in KOTOR 1.

Also spoiler for those who haven't played KOTOR 1 and 2

I don't think that's true. Revan didn't pretend he fell to the dark side, so that he could unite the galaxy. He fell to the dark side truly, even though his desire was to do good ultimately. In order to defeat the Mandalorians, he became like them, ruthless, efficient, calculating, despising weakness. He encountered "True Sith" which may as well have been an idea, and thought that in order to protect the galaxy, galaxy must be united under strong leadership. Even though his intention was noble originally, he became corrupted somewhere in the way, like that Nietzche quote, He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster.

The biggest problem I have with changing lore is that "True Sith" suddenly became a political entity, bent on destruction and domination. When playing Kotor 2, I was more under an impression that True Sith were an abstract notion, the realization that the Republic is weak, corrupt, dependent on bureacrats and that when a serious threat appears, republic will perish unless united under strong leadership. Kreia's words that the Republic foolishy believes they have destroyed the Sith because Sith can not be destroyed as it is an idea, a belief, seems to reinforce this position.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Wasn't it Anakin Skywalker? But yes, Star Wars extended universe is a blight on the originals' legacy. Apart from two forum based mafia games...

The whole prophecy is practically garbage now. Yes, technically it is Anakin Skywalker bringing balance to the force, but if they are going to go and break the prophecy in the EU by having more sith bad guys conquer the galaxy, let us just call what Return of the Jedi really is, Luke Skywalker bringing his dad back to the light who promptly did the last piece of work that needed to be done. Luke pulled all the weight.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Also spoiler for those who haven't played KOTOR 1 and 2

I don't think that's true. Revan didn't pretend he fell to the dark side, so that he could unite the galaxy. He fell to the dark side truly, even though his desire was to do good ultimately. In order to defeat the Mandalorians, he became like them, ruthless, efficient, calculating, despising weakness. He encountered "True Sith" which may as well have been an idea, and thought that in order to protect the galaxy, galaxy must be united under strong leadership. Even though his intention was noble originally, he became corrupted somewhere in the way, like that Nietzche quote, He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster.

The biggest problem I have with changing lore is that "True Sith" suddenly became a political entity, bent on destruction and domination. When playing Kotor 2, I was more under an impression that True Sith were an abstract notion, the realization that the Republic is weak, corrupt, dependent on bureacrats and that when a serious threat appears, republic will perish unless united under strong leadership. Kreia's words that the Republic foolishy believes they have destroyed the Sith because Sith can not be destroyed as it is an idea, a belief, seems to reinforce this position.

More spoilers

What you are saying is possible, but I think the dialogue from 1 and 2 lean more towards my interpretation. Tomorrow when I get home from uni I will start looking up some dialogue from the games that I recall. I distinctly remember there being a line talking about how Revan did not annihilate everything like your typical fallen jedi/ Sith master. He spared some regions that would be deemed critical when defending against an invasion coming to destroy the galaxy, and only destroyed that which would allow him to press forward to a Republic surrender, not a complete destruction of it. Really, a Sith master doesn't care about lives and would charge in if he knew he would win and kill everyone and everything, which is what Malak eventually did. Will gather more info and post here again soon.

In KOTOR 2, the "true sith" very much abstract and not explained at all. The idea of what Sith is, is very much unexplained and open to interpretation. I feel that when Kreia talks about what Sith is, she means in the basic sense of what distinguishes a Sith from anything else. A Sith is death. It is not power or "the dark side", it is pure death. The cold hand coming down upon you that cannot be stopped, is from the hands of a powerful Sith, no one else. Between Sion and Nihilus, Nihilus is the real Sith. Sion is simply an angry man who wants power and when you finally get him to stop being angry and let go, he dies. Nihilius needs death, he craves it. That is all he wants and all he strives for. This is what I feel the "true sith" should have been. This is when the Yuuzhan Vong should have came into play in the Star Wars EU.

Canderous talks about coming across a Yuuzhan Vong ship during his early years in the Mandalorian Fleet.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Yuuzh...g#Pre-invasion

The "true sith" as I envisioned it, is a threat that is truly more evil than your most evil Sith master. The Yuuzhan Vong are not from the Star Wars galaxy and are not connected to the lifespans in it through the force, they don't know of the force. The Sith conquer in order to gain power over everything else and use killing as a way to attain it. The Yuuzhan Vong really don't want power, they have no need for life because the force is nothing to them, they only want death, they only want the galaxy to themselves. So in that sense I feel like they could have been the "true sith" that kreia talked about.

This would make quite an epic story imo. One of Kreia's main objectives was the destruction of the force because she felt that the destruction caused by endless Sith vs Jedi conflicts would never end and allow everyone to die due to the true sith coming about and wiping the floor out of a weakened galaxy/republic. What amazing story writing would it have been if Kreia succeeded in destroying the Jedi and Sith orders completely and KOTOR 3 connected the first two by signalling the Yuuzhan Vong coming in, and the galaxy now needs the users of the force to gain the upper hand in pushing back this truly alien threat, thus bringing back an eventual rehash of the Sith vs Jedi endless conflicts once the Vong had been pushed back and defeated.

In short I feel that when Kreia is talking about the Republic foolishly thinking they destroyed the Sith, she is stating that you cannot kill the Sith because to be Sith is the idea that everything must die. I think the "true sith", whatever they might be, is the epitome of death in the sense that there really is no other motivation behind this group or idea where as the Sith philosophy only uses death as a stepping stone to gaining power.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Ahh, as I was looking up quotes about Revan's military tactics, it seems that the question of where Revan's loyalties lie has been a question tackled many times already with no definitive answer until this crap MMO came out.

http://swforums.bioware.com/viewtopi...42828&forum=76
http://swforums.bioware.com/viewtopi...09824&forum=76

[lars573]

Also spoiler for those who haven't played KOTOR 1 and 2

I don't think that's true. Revan didn't pretend he fell to the dark side, so that he could unite the galaxy. He fell to the dark side truly, even though his desire was to do good ultimately. In order to defeat the Mandalorians, he became like them, ruthless, efficient, calculating, despising weakness. He encountered "True Sith" which may as well have been an idea, and thought that in order to protect the galaxy, galaxy must be united under strong leadership. Even though his intention was noble originally, he became corrupted somewhere in the way, like that Nietzche quote, He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster.

The biggest problem I have with changing lore is that "True Sith" suddenly became a political entity, bent on destruction and domination. When playing Kotor 2, I was more under an impression that True Sith were an abstract notion, the realization that the Republic is weak, corrupt, dependent on bureacrats and that when a serious threat appears, republic will perish unless united under strong leadership. Kreia's words that the Republic foolishy believes they have destroyed the Sith because Sith can not be destroyed as it is an idea, a belief, seems to reinforce this position.

No the "True Sith" were a political entity. There are lines of dialogue in KOTOR2 about how the Mandalore of the great crusade was pushed into attacking the Republic by the True Sith. And that when Revan personally fought the Mandalore he sensed that, and then proceeded to rip his mind apart trying trace what it was. And although Kreia's position on things can be cloudy it's mean't to sound like some where out there unknown dark places some remnant of the old Sith still lingers waiting. Older than the tombs Revan loots in KOTOR1.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Kreia literally says that Korriban and Malachor V are the fringes of the true Sith's influence, and are actually the newest of the Sith's buildings.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Question: If this game fails massively, will LucasArts or EA declare bankruptcy?

[White_eyes:D]

More likely they well get rid of Bioware....

[econ21]

Question: If this game fails massively, will LucasArts or EA declare bankruptcy?

I had assumed it would be Bioware that was bearing the risk and LucasArts merely licensing the source material, not sure where EA stands. It would be awful if Bioware did go bankrupt, although the people there seem so talented, I suspect they would find work elsewhere - rather how some Black Isle folk turned up in Obsidian. However, one should not be over-confident about re-employment - I was sad to read that the lead person on Dragon Age quit the industry.

I am fairly optimistic they will succeed. There's not that much competition right now. Warcraft is starting to look old. Guild Wars 2 could compete for time, but not subscriptions (it won't have them). There's not much else on the MMO market that stands out. I think Bioware will do a good job, given their track record.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I am 99% certain that it is either LucasArts or EA putting up the money. Bioware does not have 80 million dollars to spend while doing Mass Effect 3 and Dragon Age 3.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Looks like it is EA putting up the money. http://www.industrygamers.com/news/s...on-to-develop/

So I should redo my question. If TOR fails massively, how will EA handle which games it will push in the aftermath?

[Voigtkampf]

The schedule of EA shouldn't be affected by any possible massive failure of SW:TOR. Which is a very probable outcome.

KotOR would not work as MMO; hence, the whole deal with miles and miles of dialogue lines is a pre-programmed FAIL. Who even reads the damn quest text for the N-th time? Who reads it the first time around!? It is always the same old "Kill Ten Rats" rubbish, anyway.

Star Wars title that has space flight included as an afterthought is a botched concept from the get go, like SW Galaxies, and like SW Galaxies, the space flight has very, very little meaning to the entire game. In SWTOR the space fight portions remind me of old arcade days, flying ahead in the invisible tunnel and shooting rows and rows of enemy fliers. That is half the EPIC FAIL right there.

Whereas the graphics are not that stunning to begin with, my personal biggest beef are the animations. Most figures run around and act as if they had a stick up their rear. Stiff as a board and lovin' every minute of it!!! In SW fights, there is little to no grace, especially if we look at the Jedi/Sith combat.

If this game adopts sandbox elements, then it might add up to something, but as it is, I don't think we'll have a quality gameplay and no decent player driven economy.

Also, as for the subscription fee; next to WoW, there is hardly a game that can still afford itself to persist on the old model, everyone and their dogs are switching to some hybrid form of free-to-play. And they are all doing better afterwards, so the math works. D&D, LOTRO, APB, Champions Online, now Fallen Earth, with Star Trek Online to surely follow at some point. People are slow with giving hard earned cash for more than one sub these days. And with GW2 as being sub-free and rivaling the SWTOR; things are getting even nastier.

To sum it up, for over 300 million dollars developing costs, I am certain right now that SWTOR will prove to be a bubble of even bigger proportions than Age of Conan was. But they will reel in at least half their costs at the very start, then the item shops will come, I guess they will pull even eventually. Also, have in mind that EA is loaded. Like, imagine Ron White's voice - looooaaaadeeeeed! They won't be hurt no matter which way the whole story goes.

Personally, I would wish nothing more than me be proved wrong, that I will enjoy the game with millions of others, and that it will be the greatest thing since sliced bread. However, many years of gaming experience and good familiarity with the industry itself are telling me that SWTOR will be underachiever; the scope of it remains to be determined.

[Krusader]

I'm not so optimistic either with the game, however from what I've gathered it seems quests are handled differently in SWTOR than WoW and other MMOs. Also, each class seem to have their own storyline and thus good number of class-only quests quests.

Two links that might be interesting:
Gabe from Penny Arcade's SWTOR First Impressions

Sith Warrior Betaleak page

[a completely inoffensive name]

The schedule of EA shouldn't be affected by any possible massive failure of SW:TOR. Which is a very probable outcome.

To sum it up, for over 300 million dollars developing costs, I am certain right now that SWTOR will prove to be a bubble of even bigger proportions than Age of Conan was. But they will reel in at least half their costs at the very start, then the item shops will come, I guess they will pull even eventually. Also, have in mind that EA is loaded. Like, imagine Ron White's voice - looooaaaadeeeeed! They won't be hurt no matter which way the whole story goes.

So if they only make half the money back, they are still out 150 million dollars. That is big cash there for EA. I don't think you could say that EA won't be even more penny pinching with their developers if they lose their TOR investment.

[Voigtkampf]

So if they only make half the money back, they are still out 150 million dollars. That is big cash there for EA. I don't think you could say that EA won't be even more penny pinching with their developers if they lose their TOR investment.

I think you missed the part where I sad "at the very start". First of all, it will be a great grand mega opening sale, with special editions and whatnot, three months subscriptions and so forth. I would hate to start playing with math, but I am almost definitely certain that, in comparison to other MMO's, SW:TOR will manage to hit 2-3 milion sold copies within the first month or two. The sales might flatten off, and the game itself (being the Star Wars IP after all) will definitely run for 2-3 more years, and lets assume that it drops down to appalling 500.000 subs - that will be, with 15$ a month, some 90m a year. So, even in the worst case scenario, I think they could come even in 3 years (one must have in mind that not all the money from sales goes to the EA and/or Bioware directly, one must consider the sellers between them and end-customer as some other cost factors).

Now, 150m is lunch money for great publishers like EA or Activision, nothing that will bring them down, maybe just a sharp sting in the ribs.

Also, at the end, we must ask ourselves - what does "massive failure" mean? In my humble opinion, there are two criteria; one set be those that produce the game and sell it, and they ask "how much money we've made?". The other is set by the players themselves, and people ask "is this game good/worth p(l)aying for me?". A neat comparison is Age of Conan; very much hyped, I fell for it (one of the rare games I failed to accurately determine whether it will be a success or not) and believed it would be the end of WoW (for me at least). Bought the damn Special Edition with a leather map, "daisy" that thing! However, in a record time, the game proved to be, well, crap. IIRC, It fell from a million starting subs to under 300.000 subs after the first three months. The players had a lot, a LOT to moan and complain about, and they voted with their feet and simply left. Only after a year and a half fresh wind came to AoC and things started improving, soon AoC is going F2P, but the initial damage was sone.

Now, AoC is, as far as most of players are concerned, a failure. However, the game has brought in a substantial load of cash, and Funcom is considering it a success. As Einstein said, the damn thing is all relative.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I think you missed the part where I sad "at the very start". First of all, it will be a great grand mega opening sale, with special editions and whatnot, three months subscriptions and so forth. I would hate to start playing with math, but I am almost definitely certain that, in comparison to other MMO's, SW:TOR will manage to hit 2-3 milion sold copies within the first month or two. The sales might flatten off, and the game itself (being the Star Wars IP after all) will definitely run for 2-3 more years, and lets assume that it drops down to appalling 500.000 subs - that will be, with 15$ a month, some 90m a year. So, even in the worst case scenario, I think they could come even in 3 years (one must have in mind that not all the money from sales goes to the EA and/or Bioware directly, one must consider the sellers between them and end-customer as some other cost factors).

I am a bit more pessimistic about the # of first month sales but yes, overall your math does work out. However, it doesn't take more than a month before customers leave in flock as you put it below about AoC. I don't have the actual numbers before me, but didn't Galaxies have a very large (like 60-75% or more) portion of their subscribers quickly leave after the NGE patch? I heard Galaxies was hitting a low of 12,000 subs logged in at various points.

Now, 150m is lunch money for great publishers like EA or Activision, nothing that will bring them down, maybe just a sharp sting in the ribs.

Well, quick glance at wikipedia says that although their revenue is $3.6 billion, their net income is only $677 million. So it seems more than lunch money, maybe I am missing something.

Also, at the end, we must ask ourselves - what does "massive failure" mean? In my humble opinion, there are two criteria; one set be those that produce the game and sell it, and they ask "how much money we've made?". The other is set by the players themselves, and people ask "is this game good/worth p(l)aying for me?". A neat comparison is Age of Conan; very much hyped, I fell for it (one of the rare games I failed to accurately determine whether it will be a success or not) and believed it would be the end of WoW (for me at least). Bought the damn Special Edition with a leather map, "daisy" that thing! However, in a record time, the game proved to be, well, crap. IIRC, It fell from a million starting subs to under 300.000 subs after the first three months. The players had a lot, a LOT to moan and complain about, and they voted with their feet and simply left. Only after a year and a half fresh wind came to AoC and things started improving, soon AoC is going F2P, but the initial damage was sone.

Now, AoC is, as far as most of players are concerned, a failure. However, the game has brought in a substantial load of cash, and Funcom is considering it a success. As Einstein said, the damn thing is all relative.

Is LucasArts and EA really going to happy if it fails with subscribers but still made them a bit of money? It seems to me that their motivation here is to get close to the constant money cash cow that is WoW. The only reason they are making this MMO is because Galaxies failed in the first place, so if success just means it made some money even if it lost its base, they could have done all this a lot differently than hiring BioWare, an MMO that has 10,000+ hours of voice acting and 300+ million investment. I 100% agree with you that "failure" is greatly different from the perspective of a consumer and publisher though.

[Voigtkampf]

I am a bit more pessimistic about the # of first month sales but yes, overall your math does work out. However, it doesn't take more than a month before customers leave in flock as you put it below about AoC. I don't have the actual numbers before me, but didn't Galaxies have a very large (like 60-75% or more) portion of their subscribers quickly leave after the NGE patch? I heard Galaxies was hitting a low of 12,000 subs logged in at various points.

It is indeed possible to swing either way; depending on how good the EA spins the promotion wheel, SW:TOR could be more or less successful. But in regards how other MMO's are doing recently, including RIFT, I think couple of million sold copies in the first month or two are still very reasonable assumption. After all, it is Star Wars. As for the strict numbers on when and how many players left, I can't tell, since I only observed the game for a short while. Indeed it seemed quite successful at the start, selling over one million copies; mind you, that was 2005, the year when WoW only just started, and MMO's were still a matter of obscurity. However, the quality of the game was so low, so much of it was unfinished that it was a fair statement that a game came out a year too early. It eventually turned really bad, as you said, with cca 10k people logged in at the same time. Btw, they have recently announced that they are shutting down Star Wars: Galaxies in December 2011.

Well, quick glance at wikipedia says that although their revenue is $3.6 billion, their net income is only $677 million. So it seems more than lunch money, maybe I am missing something.

Yeah, it seems so, but I can't really admit that I can figure out all the numbers, but for the several last quarters the Net Income was 201m, 322m and 151m that was from 09/2010 until 03/2011. 150m is basically the corrected net income for a bad quarter. Maybe not exactly lunch money, but still no neck-breaking number.

Is LucasArts and EA really going to happy if it fails with subscribers but still made them a bit of money? It seems to me that their motivation here is to get close to the constant money cash cow that is WoW. The only reason they are making this MMO is because Galaxies failed in the first place, so if success just means it made some money even if it lost its base, they could have done all this a lot differently than hiring BioWare, an MMO that has 10,000+ hours of voice acting and 300+ million investment. I 100% agree with you that "failure" is greatly different from the perspective of a consumer and publisher though.

To make a cash cow that gets close to WoW may have been their initial dream indeed, but honestly, it is downright impossible to reproduce that. Blizzard is the king of the hill, they got the king Midas golden touch, and nobody else can compare to them at this given moment. Not even BioWare, and not by a long shot. I reckon they will settle for money and a mediocre success of most MMO's that have been launched recently. Also, other than BioWare, I don't really know who Lucas could have gotten to make them game half as good as BioWare guaranteed by its RPG reputation alone. Sadly, you need to insert that RPG successfully into an MMO and make a good MMORPG.

I don't care much about EA's millions. I am just worried that i won't live to see a decent Star Wars or Star Trek MMO made.

[a completely inoffensive name]

It is indeed possible to swing either way; depending on how good the EA spins the promotion wheel, SW:TOR could be more or less successful. But in regards how other MMO's are doing recently, including RIFT, I think couple of million sold copies in the first month or two are still very reasonable assumption. After all, it is Star Wars. As for the strict numbers on when and how many players left, I can't tell, since I only observed the game for a short while. Indeed it seemed quite successful at the start, selling over one million copies; mind you, that was 2005, the year when WoW only just started, and MMO's were still a matter of obscurity. However, the quality of the game was so low, so much of it was unfinished that it was a fair statement that a game came out a year too early. It eventually turned really bad, as you said, with cca 10k people logged in at the same time. Btw, they have recently announced that they are shutting down Star Wars: Galaxies in December 2011.

I had heard differently about Galaxies. There a crap ton of old Star Wars Galaxies players on Reddit.com in the r/gaming forum and they all said that Galaxies was intensive and complex but incredibly rewarding and fun with a great community. After WoW came out, they simplified the hell out of it into a Star Wars WoW clone (classes before were fluid and could be mixed together but then suddenly became rigid and unchangeable), essentially changing the entire game in the process and causing the huge flock. Before that, it was supposedly an amazing Star Wars MMO.

Yeah, it seems so, but I can't really admit that I can figure out all the numbers, but for the several last quarters the Net Income was 201m, 322m and 151m that was from 09/2010 until 03/2011. 150m is basically the corrected net income for a bad quarter. Maybe not exactly lunch money, but still no neck-breaking number.

Agreed.

To make a cash cow that gets close to WoW may have been their initial dream indeed, but honestly, it is downright impossible to reproduce that. Blizzard is the king of the hill, they got the king Midas golden touch, and nobody else can compare to them at this given moment. Not even BioWare, and not by a long shot. I reckon they will settle for money and a mediocre success of most MMO's that have been launched recently. Also, other than BioWare, I don't really know who Lucas could have gotten to make them game half as good as BioWare guaranteed by its RPG reputation alone. Sadly, you need to insert that RPG successfully into an MMO and make a good MMORPG.

It is downright impossible to take down WoW at this point, you are right, but while us gamers recognize that, does EA or LucasArts recognize that? This is a time when publishers such as EA and Activision have actively killed dozens of companies and franchises in a pursuit to get profits that were unattainable. All the gamers knew that the fake band market was over saturated, but Activision didn't and continued to push Guitar Hero so much that they eventually killed the franchise entirely. Remember how great Maxis was? SimAnt, SimCity, Alpha Centauri, and yes, the original The Sims. Now what is Maxis pushing? A rehash of a rehash of a once great game in order to continue to milk gamers of money for each $20 Sims "expansion" consisting of additional couches to buy in game. Oh and Spore, which could be one of the most disappointing games of the past decade, directly because of meddling in the design process (they purposely made everything look childish and ridiculously silly looking in order to capture a wider audience, because scary stuff would drive away customers).

It seems the two main publishers don't really grasp what is and isn't possible in the gaming market. They feel as if they can make a "product" as fast and possible and as many times as possible and advertise/hype it to the top spot just like any other market, but it doesn't work that way. So I would not be surprised if EA and LucasArts really do have their heads in the clouds and think as if they can take down WoW because they think they finally have some sort of secret weapon that will make their MMO completely different and better than the 8 year old WoW.

I don't care much about EA's millions. I am just worried that i won't live to see a decent Star Wars or Star Trek MMO made.

From what I have heard, Galaxies was an amazing Star Wars MMO with a great experience due to a friendly community (everyone was a hardcore Star Wars fan). So it looks like there was one made, but it came and went, killed by a quest for money that wasn't there, which might be the case yet again imo, with TOR.

EDIT: I just want to say, that if LucasArts truly was looking to make a bunch of money, then all this MMO business was completely unneccessary. There are already enough great Star Wars franchises that could have continued that if made properly would have been a big money stream for a decade or more.

Instead of taking on TOR, this is what they could have been pushing:

1. A new Jedi Knight game. (last one was 2003)
2. A new Rouge Squadron game. (last one was 2003)
3. They could have made KOTOR 3, and that would have been huge.
4. A new Battlefront (last one was 2005)
5. A sequel to Republic Commando (that came out in 2005)
6. A new Empire at War. (I felt it was a very unique series that could have have been improved upon a great deal. that came out in 2006-2007).

There you go. 6 games that imo, would be guaranteed profitable, blockbuster games if they were allowed to made correctly and not rushed like KOTOR 2.

Instead they go down this MMO path, a much more risky choice and push the crap that is The Force Unleashed, a mediocre game that is solely based around the novelty of the "cool" physics and material engines they made for it.

The only rational reason I can see for abandoning all these guaranteed games for TOR is that they must have their eyes on the big prize of taking down WoW, I can't see any other reason why.

[Voigtkampf]

I had heard differently about Galaxies. There a crap ton of old Star Wars Galaxies players on Reddit.com in the r/gaming forum and they all said that Galaxies was intensive and complex but incredibly rewarding and fun with a great community. After WoW came out, they simplified the hell out of it into a Star Wars WoW clone (classes before were fluid and could be mixed together but then suddenly became rigid and unchangeable), essentially changing the entire game in the process and causing the huge flock. Before that, it was supposedly an amazing Star Wars MMO.

Yes, I'd say there is a fair combination of both the game being not all too finished at the beginning (as are all MMO's, let us be honest, but those at the early days had something new ones do not have; healthy gameplay constructions upon which one could build upon) and then SOE coming in and basically ruining the game. As I said, I gathered as much from the community feedback, I was exploring Azeroth at the time and had little thoughts about SWG

It is downright impossible to take down WoW at this point, you are right, but while us gamers recognize that, does EA or LucasArts recognize that? This is a time when publishers such as EA and Activision have actively killed dozens of companies and franchises in a pursuit to get profits that were unattainable. All the gamers knew that the fake band market was over saturated, but Activision didn't and continued to push Guitar Hero so much that they eventually killed the franchise entirely. Remember how great Maxis was? SimAnt, SimCity, Alpha Centauri, and yes, the original The Sims. Now what is Maxis pushing? A rehash of a rehash of a once great game in order to continue to milk gamers of money for each $20 Sims "expansion" consisting of additional couches to buy in game. Oh and Spore, which could be one of the most disappointing games of the past decade, directly because of meddling in the design process (they purposely made everything look childish and ridiculously silly looking in order to capture a wider audience, because scary stuff would drive away customers).

Agreed.

It seems the two main publishers don't really grasp what is and isn't possible in the gaming market. They feel as if they can make a "product" as fast and possible and as many times as possible and advertise/hype it to the top spot just like any other market, but it doesn't work that way. So I would not be surprised if EA and LucasArts really do have their heads in the clouds and think as if they can take down WoW because they think they finally have some sort of secret weapon that will make their MMO completely different and better than the 8 year old WoW.

It is easy for them to lose touch with reality; they start thinking they can dictate not only what kind of games should be made but also that they can dictate that the public should love those games. Awakening comes very slowly for them, because there is no instant cause/effect relationship between their actions and reactions of the market. Mostly, though, they are completely incompetent and only thing the big companies manage to do today is excelling in alienating gamers with their actions and comments.

Instead of taking on TOR, this is what they could have been pushing:

1. A new Jedi Knight game. (last one was 2003)
2. A new Rouge Squadron game. (last one was 2003)
3. They could have made KOTOR 3, and that would have been huge.
4. A new Battlefront (last one was 2005)
5. A sequel to Republic Commando (that came out in 2005)
6. A new Empire at War. (I felt it was a very unique series that could have have been improved upon a great deal. that came out in 2006-2007).

There you go. 6 games that imo, would be guaranteed profitable, blockbuster games if they were allowed to made correctly and not rushed like KOTOR 2.

Instead they go down this MMO path, a much more risky choice and push the crap that is The Force Unleashed, a mediocre game that is solely based around the novelty of the "cool" physics and material engines they made for it.

The only rational reason I can see for abandoning all these guaranteed games for TOR is that they must have their eyes on the big prize of taking down WoW, I can't see any other reason why.

All wonderful games, yes, but I reckon in meanwhile Lucas Arts has as much insight into what is good concerning games as they have insight into what makes up for a good movie.
To this list, I would like to add X-Wing or the ultimate fun that was TIE Fighter with expansions. How come they don't make something like that!? Or an upgraded version of rather underestimated Star Wars: Rebellion, a strategy that I would love to play again.

The problem is not going down the MMO path. Problem is they suck righteous donkey while doing so. I stare at them in utter disbelief; they have an amazing universe that million people adore. Does it seem so hard to make a half decent MMO and wedge it in there, so people would be enchanted? Seems so. Goes for Star Trek as well. Here is a suggestion for an MMO, off the top of my head, and be assured, everyone would love the damn game.

Make an MMO based on Star Wars starships; a section of galaxy held by Alliance, the other by Empire, greatest part of it though should be conquerable space. Allow players to be on either side, or to create their own space corporations (EVE style), control planets, mine them for minerals, gases. Let them produce their own ships, sell them on the market, let them fly X-Wings, TIE Fighters, Star destroyers or freight ships, all by their own choice. Enable huge fleet battles, where every ship, from a small fighter to a super class destroyer has its role. Make fighters fly like it's a flight simulation. Create a game where there will be place for ship builders, smugglers, mercenaries and wrap it in Star Wars clothing. You don't even have to be very inventive, a simple combination of EVE Online, X-Wing vs TIE Fighter and Elite (only the oldies will know of this, I guess) would turn everything upside down.

Could anyone honestly say they think this would be a fail?

[Vladimir]

Make an MMO based on Star Wars starships; a section of galaxy held by Alliance, the other by Empire, greatest part of it though should be conquerable space. Allow players to be on either side, or to create their own space corporations (EVE style), control planets, mine them for minerals, gases. Let them produce their own ships, sell them on the market, let them fly X-Wings, TIE Fighters, Star destroyers or freight ships, all by their own choice. Enable huge fleet battles, where every ship, from a small fighter to a super class destroyer has its role. Make fighters fly like it's a flight simulation. Create a game where there will be place for ship builders, smugglers, mercenaries and wrap it in Star Wars clothing. You don't even have to be very inventive, a simple combination of EVE Online, X-Wing vs TIE Fighter and Elite (only the oldies will know of this, I guess) would turn everything upside down.

Could anyone honestly say they think this would be a fail?

I think that would be the prefect SW MMO. As you listed, all the games, ideas, and etc are there. They just need to be updated and merged. You can have an Old Republic version, a classic Star Wars version, and a fan fiction/post episode VI setting. It could blow everything away.

[Montmorency]

Instead of taking on TOR, this is what they could have been pushing:

1. A new Jedi Knight game. (last one was 2003)
2. A new Rouge Squadron game. (last one was 2003)
3. They could have made KOTOR 3, and that would have been huge.
4. A new Battlefront (last one was 2005)
5. A sequel to Republic Commando (that came out in 2005)
6. A new Empire at War. (I felt it was a very unique series that could have have been improved upon a great deal. that came out in 2006-2007).

5. I still want to know what happened to Sev.
6. EU-style with SOTS battles. That would be nice.

Also, why the avatar change?

[a completely inoffensive name]

Also, why the avatar change?

Because I like E:TW avatar's better. My name is so long I figured people will still easily recognize me. Do I know you?