High Seas Piracy

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Regarding Piracy on the High Seas:

Whereas the cost of goods to consumers would be significantly increased either as a result of increased operating costs to shippers to provide an their ships with active means to combat pirates and prevent the taking of their vessels and/or would be signficantly increased by the tax burden necessary to provide military forces sufficient to interdict piracy, and

Whereas the potential human cost to merchant crews and to those practicing piracy as a livelihood would be significant were more aggressive means of defense to be used to combat piracy, and

Whereas the cost to consumers and taxpayers can be moderated through the use of commercial insurance against piracy to spread this financial risk across a broad number of insureds, allowing shippers to pass along a reduced cost to their consumers by obviating the need for defensive measures, and

Whereas those practicing piracy can insure that the financial threat they represent to shippers is just enough less than the cost of defending against them as to make paying the appropriate fees for the return of a few captured vessels econcomically viable (using insurance) when compared to the greater cost of defending all of them, then

Be it resolved that no military or defensive actions should be taken against pirates on the high seas or at upon their bases on land and that all such efforts should be deemed counterproductive to the greater interests of human safety for all persons directly involved, to all innocents involved through no fault of their own, and also as being ultimately counterproductive to the smooth flow of trade.


Please declare for or against the resolution and state your reasons. Thank you.

[Lemur]

Correct me if I'm wrong (I often am) but I thought the biggest problem was ports that won't allow armed vessels to dock. And I kind of understand the issue. If a tanker from Yemen showed up in Virginia with a crew bristling with AKs and light machine guns, I don't think the locals would be happy.

I wonder if there could be some agreement with a central weapons locker, where all guns would be deposited and the portmaster given the only key? Just thinking out loud here. Some way that merchant ships could be armed to the teeth on the high seas but effectively disarmed in port? Ideas?

[Louis VI the Fat]

I am struggling with the language and format of the OP. (Speak English for God's sake )


Hoping I understood it correctly:
I am against. Piracy is a crime. The combat of crime is a goal in itself. Even if the cost of combating a crime exceeds the cost of the crime itself, it must still be undertaken.

To - slightly aptly - quote Voltaire: if tomorrow the world ends, then today we must hang all murderers.

[Fragony]

In the old days we bombed the ports

[Crazed Rabbit]

Whereas;
Justice demands that we cannot ignore such crime as this,

The pirates will continue hijacking vessels because of the economic incentive they have,

And more pirates will join them because they want part of the money,

The amount of pirates hijacking vessels, and the number of hijacked vessels, shall increase,

The negative effects of piracy will increase,

The overall economic harm will increase,

The problem of piracy can be solved in a relatively straightforward way, by

Attacking the pirate's home ports, which we know,

Training and arming the crews,

Allowing armed crews to freely travel.

I hereby declare against your resolution.

CR

[Banquo's Ghost]

I would vote against the resolution, since I don't agree with most of your premises.

The solution is relatively simple and quite cost-effective - and it doesn't require the tearing up of international agreements by arming vessels (one humungous can of worms and God's gift to al-Qa'eda).

Convoys through that part of the world. Most western nations have a fair old naval presence in those seas anyway, and this would give them something useful to do. The pirates only choose isolated ships - they are not going to play with naval escorts.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I am struggling with the language and format of the OP. (Speak English for God's sake )


Hoping I understood it correctly:
I am against. Piracy is a crime. The combat of crime is a goal in itself. Even if the cost of combating a crime exceeds the cost of the crime itself, it must still be undertaken.

To - slightly aptly - quote Voltaire: if tomorrow the world ends, then today we must hang all murderers.

You understood it perfectly. I do freely admit that the style employed was very "old school" formal debate language.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I do freely admit that the style employed was very "old school" formal debate language.

If anything, I loved the formality of the language! It felt like a warm bath.
There was some irony intended in me, as a non-native speaker, accusing an English speaker of not applying proper English when he is, in fact, writing in perfect, schooled English.

You understood it perfectly.

I'll huff and I'll puff until I get it. It takes more than rigidly applied formality and some anachronisms to out-English me.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

If anything, I loved the formality of the language! It felt like a warm bath.
There was some irony intended in me, as a non-native speaker, accusing an English speaker of not applying proper English when he is, in fact, writing in perfect, schooled English.

I understood your ironic humor, Louis. Tu es tres drole!

Besides, if I did not appreciate irony, I could never remain a Republican.

[Furunculus]

Correct me if I'm wrong (I often am) but I thought the biggest problem was ports that won't allow armed vessels to dock. And I kind of understand the issue. If a tanker from Yemen showed up in Virginia with a crew bristling with AKs and light machine guns, I don't think the locals would be happy.

I wonder if there could be some agreement with a central weapons locker, where all guns would be deposited and the portmaster given the only key? Just thinking out loud here. Some way that merchant ships could be armed to the teeth on the high seas but effectively disarmed in port? Ideas?

we might find that increasing piracy and the concomitant insurance premiums lead to the acceptance of armed guards on ships.

likewise, piracy is confined to certain lawless areas of the sea, major powers like the US have the power to park a ranger battalion in the horn of africa and assets in india/madagascer to do a pick-n-drop on two man teams with high powered rifles. six months of running the pirate-lottery even with one in ten odds would dissolve all piracy threats against US flag ships. this dodges the bullet of armed guards on foreign flags in domestic ports.

[Tribesman]

If you have armed people on boats how do you tell the diffence between a typical fishingboat off East Africa with armed people on board and a bunch of armed pirates using a fishing boat off east africa ?

[Furunculus]

well it requires judgment.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

How is piracy particularly despicable? It's little more than theft with some light kidnapping thrown in. We're bankrolling regimes doing far worse.

[Husar]

I'm for it because I'm not a commie and prefer the cheaper option.

The solution to Louis's problem concerning the legality is the same as the solution to illegal drug cartels.
In fact, legalizing piracy could create a lot of sorely needed jobs in this economic crisis.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Armed guards would have to be UN sanctioned and trained. Rules of engagement would have to be pretty specfic *criminal act in progress*, preemptive deadly force will inevitably lead to killing/injuring innocent people. Armed guards on vessels with highly combustible cargo is akin to lighting a candle in a dynamite shack.

Convoys is probably the most feasible strategy. Develop better non-lethal measures from anti-boarding to safe/secure rooms with a kill-engine switch and/or lock the steering, and an auto emergency distress alarm from that secure space. If one can't prevent the boarding, at least deny them access to hostages and the ability to move the ship to their safe haven.

Accept the fact that piracy will always exist in some degree, and that recovering hostages by force will inevitably result in some of them getting killed eventually.

[Strike For The South]

I may be missing something blisteringly obvious but these pirates use fairly light boats right? Why not just go in the deep end of the pool?

Or find a new route?

[KarlXII]

Whereas the potential human cost to merchant crews and to those practicing piracy as a livelihood would be significant were more aggressive means of defense to be used to combat piracy, and

In the end, casualties justify results. I must remind you that piracy is in fact a crime, and should be dealt with. Ignoring the problem would only encourage more aggressive attacks, as oppossed to deterring them with military options.

Whereas those practicing piracy can insure that the financial threat they represent to shippers is just enough less than the cost of defending against them as to make paying the appropriate fees for the return of a few captured vessels econcomically viable (using insurance) when compared to the greater cost of defending all of them, then

Indeed, the pirates see that simply demanding a ransom will ensure financial results. However, if we passively twittle our thumbs and simply allow them to be payed off (Barbary Pirates), they will continue to become more aggressive and demand more and more before the cost of paying ransoms is higher than the cost of launching a Tomahawk.

Be it resolved that no military or defensive actions should be taken against pirates on the high seas or at upon their bases on land and that all such efforts should be deemed counterproductive to the greater interests of human safety for all persons directly involved, to all innocents involved through no fault of their own, and also as being ultimately counterproductive to the smooth flow of trade.

It is true that an attack on pirates and pirate bases will only result in further violence, however, if we cannot respond to simple backward thieves of the high seas, what become of that? The Navies of the World should always be tasked with the protection of the free flow of commercial traffic in relation to merchant vessels. Our resolve should be swift, brutal, and intimidating. Show these pirates that their hijackings and kidnappings will only result in their deaths.

Be it resolved that the necessary military and defensive actions should be tooken by all nations, in the spirit of free trade and protection of sailors, to remove the threat of high seas piracy and ensure the safe passage of naval vessels.

[Fragony]

What's the problem, they have small boats we have an advanced navy, and it is international water, and if it isn't what are they going to do about it. Find them and sink them like the old days. Why do we have to be so civilized all the time, these boots are made for walking.

[KukriKhan]

Don't steal.

If you do (steal), you may enjoy the fruits of your labour for awhile. Maybe a long while. But, in the end, the stealing will denigrate your own existance, because you have not earned the fruits of your stealth, someone else did. And you will know yourself as a parasite, not a human - worthy of respect.

High seas, internet, 7-11... stealing is stealing. Wrong every time.

[Husar]

Don't steal.

If you do (steal), you may enjoy the fruits of your labour for awhile. Maybe a long while. But, in the end, the stealing will denigrate your own existance, because you have not earned the fruits of your stealth, someone else did. And you will know yourself as a parasite, not a human - worthy of respect.

High seas, internet, 7-11... stealing is stealing. Wrong every time.

Yes, it just gets especially interesting when the internet thieves call for the death of the high-seas thieves or when the normal people call for the death of the high seas thieves together with their friends, the internet thieves. Might makes right I guess, if i ever develop a software program and anyone of you downloads it, does that mean I can drive my tank up to your house and blow you up?
I mean that's what we're supposed to do with the pirates, isn't it?

Man Kukri, what an angle you presented there....