Survivability: Cataphract Archers vs. Pontic Chariot Archers

[Elephant]

Hi everyone,

Well, the title pretty much sums up my question: Who is better at surviving ranged attacks? The super-heavy armour if the CAs, or the multiple hitpoints of the chariots?

I did a Custom Battle test, and the CAs seems to win, but yet, whenever I play my Armenian campaign on VH/H, I get ones and twos of CAs dying per volley from conventional HAs!!!

Also, I would like to know which one has better stamina? This is so I can rely on the Cantabrian Circle in case I need to have a shoot-out with enemy archers.

Can anyone share some knowledge? Thanks!

[Quirinus]

All I can think of is that maybe you're playing on a higher battle difficulty.. or that the HAs are better quality HAs like Persian cavalry.. or something. Sorry, not much help here.

[Quintus.JC]

Should be Catahpracts, doesn't skirmishers get bonus against chariot units?

Not sure though.

[SubRosa]

I second that it should be the Cataphracts by far. Chariots usually do not hold up in archery duels. Once their hit points are worn down, they fall very quickly. You just have to last that long. Just put your Catas in open formation when you shoot it out. That will make your people harder to hit and not tire them out.

And yes, skirmisher units receive a +6 bonus vs. Chariots. Mercenary Peltasts are great here.

[Quintus.JC]

I second that it should be the Cataphracts by far. Chariots usually do not hold up in archery duels. Once their hit points are worn down, they fall very quickly. You just have to last that long. Just put your Catas in open formation when you shoot it out. That will make your people harder to hit and not tire them out.

And yes, skirmisher units receive a +6 bonus vs. Chariots. Mercenary Peltasts are great here.

I almost forgot the supreme armour bonus Cataphracts gets. Yes its gotta be Cataphracts.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Chariots are very vulnerable to missiles. The first volley might not do much, but as soon as that hit point bonus wears down, chariots have effectively the same defensive stats as Peasants.

[Elephant]

Chariots are very vulnerable to missiles. The first volley might not do much, but as soon as that hit point bonus wears down, chariots have effectively the same defensive stats as Peasants.

Ahh, yes. I do seem to recall some kind of mass death after a volley that was easily shrugged off... Interesting...

And yet, if I use Cantabrian Circle, which makes the Chariot Archers much harder to be continually shot at, would the hitpoints regenerate over time after they are struck with the first volley of arrows?

[Rhyfelwyr]

I'm pretty sure the hit points don't recover during the battle, although I think the cantabrian circle itself makes them harder to hit.

[SubRosa]

Hit points do not recover during a battle. They do recover completely between battles however. So you really do not want any enemy chariots or elephants escaping. Because the next battle you will have to go through all those hit points again.

[Rhyfelwyr]

The problem with not letting chariots escape is that the only unit that can chase them are cavalry, which get minced in the scythes. The best thing you can do is try to take out a few with the ranged attacks. IIRC Elephants also kill troops when they fall over after dieing, but usually that's a price worth paying.

[Elephant]

The problem with not letting chariots escape is that the only unit that can chase them are cavalry, which get minced in the scythes. The best thing you can do is try to take out a few with the ranged attacks. IIRC Elephants also kill troops when they fall over after dieing, but usually that's a price worth paying.

Now, I don't know if's it's just me, but I swear I see tight formation heavy cavalry (ie. my Cataphract Archers) take less damage from charging scythed chariots if I tell them to stay and brace themselves rather than charge! Perhaps they have a harder time riding through the CA formation, and gets bogged down?

[Rhyfelwyr]

Now, I don't know if's it's just me, but I swear I see tight formation heavy cavalry (ie. my Cataphract Archers) take less damage from charging scythed chariots if I tell them to stay and brace themselves rather than charge! Perhaps they have a harder time riding through the CA formation, and gets bogged down?

That could be true, since chariots only really kill as long as either they or their opponents keep moving. If the cataphracts try to run through the chariot formation, they end up just slicing their legs on the scythes.

[SubRosa]

The problem with not letting chariots escape is that the only unit that can chase them are cavalry, which get minced in the scythes. The best thing you can do is try to take out a few with the ranged attacks. IIRC Elephants also kill troops when they fall over after dieing, but usually that's a price worth paying.

That is what cheap cavalry is for, like Militia Cavalry or Horse Archers. You can retrain them easily enough.

Yes, I can be very ruthless..

[guineawolf]

your cataphract archers got long range fire,try get as far as possible and try to get higher ground that will get you longer range ,1 last thing,dun get into melee with chariot archers.....

[ReluctantSamurai]

That is what cheap cavalry is for, like Militia Cavalry or Horse Archers. You can retrain them easily enough.

Yes, I can be very ruthless..

Exactly! I use much the same tactic. I wear them down a bit with javelin or archer fire, and then charge them with cavalry. The casualties are high but chariots take two turns to recruit...militia cav only one.

The only problem comes when an enemy stack has six or more chariots, especially ones. Get ready for a long casualty list

I've always thought that chariots should receive some sort of penalty for operating in rough or hilly terrain. I'm from hilly farm country and I can't tell you how many times farmers tip wagons over drawing them across hillsides. Chariots would suffer for the same reasons.

And anyone who has ever ridden a horse before would know that there is no way that a "donkey cart" (my 'affectionate' term for British chariots) could out run a single horse and rider in snow. Duh