Red Cross Torture Report

[Lemur]

Yet again we are confronted with the question of what torture is. Is physical abuse (and if so, what kind?), sleep deprivation, or shaving a beard? The Red Cross doesn't state it was, but Lemur knows better.

I've responded to this at length in previous threads, which I'm guessing you didn't read. I'll do a condensed version here:

"Torture" is intent, in the same way that "first degree homicide" is intent. You can kill someone by accident, and it isn't homicide, it's manslaughter. By the same token, you can make a prisoner's life hell unintentionally and it isn't torture.

If your intent is to cause pain and suffering, it's torture.

But let's delve into this a little more deeply before we go on. I'd like to turn the question around and hear your responses:

If I slap you lightly, is it torture? How about if I slap you 100 times and turn your face into a swollen, bloody mess? How many slaps, exactly, does it take to meet your non-existent definition of torture? Please take into account that different interrogators will have different arm strength and hand size. Factor that into your answer.

How about if I prevent you from sleeping? Obviously 24–48 hours is nothing, grad students do it all the time. But keep a person awake long enough and they will die. So when, exactly, does it become appropriate to call sleep deprivation "torture"? Please be specific.

What if I can control the temperature of your room? A fully-clothed human being is fine in a cold room. How about if I take your clothes away and don't give them back for a week? What if I douse you with cold water to make the shivering and hypothermia start earlier? I can kill you this way, so obviously at some point it becomes torture. When? How about if I give you an icewater enema? (This has been documented in a case where the Navy SEALS accidentally killed a detainee.) It's going to be agonizing, especially if I've already got you naked and wet in a 50 degree room. Does near-freezing water in your lower intestine qualify as torture?

How about sensory deprivation? You can quite easily drive another human being insane with this technique. By the same token, yuppies do sensory deprivation tanks for fun. So when does the 30-minute sensory deprivation vacation become torture? Please give me a specific time, and back it up with scientific data.

If you can successfully answer any of these questions, I'll give you a shiny nickel. 'Cause let's face it, you're demanding a definition for something you have given no serious thought to, and which you are not able to define yourself. Not only have you avoided exploring the moral and ethical ramifications of torture, you haven't demonstrated that you have devoted any rational thought to what it is. Your question demonstrates a moral, ethical and intellectual blind spot.

[Tribesman]

Tribes, you're not exactly the king of documented sources, so I don't see where you have any moral standing on this.

But this is about people not reading sources that are posted isn't it .

As for me not posting links . Well thats simple , since in general the most vocal ranters will go off on one without reading the link let alone having even the most basic understanding of the issue then what is the point in posting links for them to not read ?

A prime example from recently .....

edit: didn't even click on article when I posted that, 'occupied territory', says enough. A country occupying land after a war that it didn't even provoke, outragious who would have thought. There is no official peace it's a cease fire. Within Israel's borders arabs have the same rights. Outside Israel's borders 'rights' lol.

....a simple pattern to follow isn't it . Didn't look at it at all .....looked at it but didn't read it ...carrying on with a typical nonsensical position even though a quick read of the link or any knowledge of the situation and history surrounding it shoots that arguement to pieces .

So compare that with another approach to posted links .

Nice video , far too many factual errors though to be taken seriously .

[Vladimir]

I've responded to this at length in previous threads, which I'm guessing you didn't read. I'll do a condensed version here:

"Torture" is intent, in the same way that "first degree homicide" is intent. You can kill someone by accident, and it isn't homicide, it's manslaughter. By the same token, you can make a prisoner's life hell unintentionally and it isn't torture.

If your intent is to cause pain and suffering, it's torture.

But let's delve into this a little more deeply before we go on. I'd like to turn the question around and hear your responses:

If I slap you lightly, is it torture? How about if I slap you 100 times and turn your face into a swollen, bloody mess? How many slaps, exactly, does it take to meet your non-existent definition of torture? Please take into account that different interrogators will have different arm strength and hand size. Factor that into your answer.

How about if I prevent you from sleeping? Obviously 24–48 hours is nothing, grad students do it all the time. But keep a person awake long enough and they will die. So when, exactly, does it become appropriate to call sleep deprivation "torture"? Please be specific.

What if I can control the temperature of your room? A fully-clothed human being is fine in a cold room. How about if I take your clothes away and don't give them back for a week? What if I douse you with cold water to make the shivering and hypothermia start earlier? I can kill you this way, so obviously at some point it becomes torture. When? How about if I give you an icewater enema? (This has been documented in a case where the Navy SEALS accidentally killed a detainee.) It's going to be agonizing, especially if I've already got you naked and wet in a 50 degree room. Does near-freezing water in your lower intestine qualify as torture?

How about sensory deprivation? You can quite easily drive another human being insane with this technique. By the same token, yuppies do sensory deprivation tanks for fun. So when does the 30-minute sensory deprivation vacation become torture? Please give me a specific time, and back it up with scientific data.

If you can successfully answer any of these questions, I'll give you a shiny nickel. 'Cause let's face it, you're demanding a definition for something you have given no serious thought to, and which you are not able to define yourself. Not only have you avoided exploring the moral and ethical ramifications of torture, you haven't demonstrated that you have devoted any rational thought to what it is. Your question demonstrates a moral, ethical and intellectual blind spot.

By popular request!

I know you're posting your opinion, which is fine, therefore my "What is torture" question is a response to your implication that the Red Cross declared the treatment of these prisoners as torture. It did not. Far from providing substantiated claims the report included several allegations (and correctly called them so) of abuse. It's great that you have a mind of your own but expect the pendulum to swing back. I'm not making allegations of illegal activity so I don't need to provide evidence or declare how many slaps upon one's buttocks constitutes torture.

There are techniques like the infamous waterboarding, physical abuse, and prolonged sleep deprivation which are (or at least certainly were) a part of military training. Sometimes the intent of legal civilian and military training is to cause pain and suffering; it then becomes a matter of degree. By your rather naive definition, we torture our own people every day.

I'm entertained that you think I have a blind spot, I really am. However you represent the .org, so try to limit the personal attacks please.

[Lemur]

In other words, you can't answer any of my questions, but will retreat behind a hastily erected barricade of "You shouldn't call me out!" with a little dash of "I don't have to answer anything, ever." Lovely.

Vladimir, it is 100% legitimate for me to demand your definition of torture, since you have repeatedly dismissed the notion that (a) it ever happened and (b) if it happened it wasn't quite "torture" and (c) "What is torture anyway?" and (d) "Define torture, or go home!" to which we can now add (e) "I'm only denying torture, so it's unfair to ask me to define what I'm saying didn't happen!"

For you to glibly declare that you don't need to answer any questions, contribute to the discussion or provide your own definition of the term you abuse so regularly is mendacity of a truly Rovian order. It's safe to say that you are not only unserious on this issue, but that you are not even debating in good faith.

[HoreTore]

I have to say I am disappointed.

I've been eagerly awaiting your response to Lemur's questions almost as much as I've been awaiting that chick I met at the bar a week ago. Now I'm twice as disappointed...

[KukriKhan]

...mendacity of a truly Rovian order.

First time I've seen that in the wild. :)