Red Cross Torture Report

[Tribesman]

One slight problem there Vuk , using your definition of what is not torture you contradict your own government and military on what is torture .
For a simple example look no further than the USS Pueblo

[Vuk]

One slight problem there Vuk , using your definition of what is not torture you contradict your own government and military on what is torture .
For a simple example look no further than the USS Pueblo

The Korea incident? My memory is foggy, perhaps you can provide me with some sources. (anything that is not from Pravda or the Huffington Post will be fine)

[Tribesman]

perhaps you can provide me with some sources.

Do you mean sources on the use of threats as mental torture by making people think they or others would die if they didn't say what the torturers wanted them to say?
Perhaps I could, but maybe I won't

[Vuk]

Do you mean sources on the use of threats as mental torture by making people think they or others would die if they didn't say what the torturers wanted them to say?
Perhaps I could, but maybe I won't

So you are saying "I have proof that you are wrong Vuk, but I am keeping it secret."
If you want to prove something, then prove it. Anyone can say "I know that you are wrong, but I will not tell you why. Take my word for it though, you are". Unless you can tell me WHY, then I am not gonna believe you.

[Tribesman]

So you are saying "I have proof that you are wrong Vuk, but I am keeping it secret."

No I am saying look it up for yourself , see how many official and unofficial websites there are on the N. Koran torture of US servicemen you can find by just yping in the name of the ship .

Unless you can tell me WHY, then I am not gonna believe you.

Thats rather silly , it suggests a lack of an inquisitive mind and a real fear of learning

[Fixiwee]

Vuk is saying waterboarding is not a form of torture and I call blantly absurd on that. If you think it's not torture you're ignorant to the facts:

Article 1

1. For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/h_cat39.htm

Oh here is more facts. What? A texan police officer was sentenced by his state for water boarding because it is torture and thus a crime? Can't be!
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=15886834

[Vuk]

Vuk is saying waterboarding is not a form of torture and I call blantly absurd on that. If you think it's not torture you're ignorant to the facts:

Article 1

1. For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/h_cat39.htm

Oh here is more facts. What? A texan police officer was sentenced by his state for water boarding because it is torture and thus a crime? Can't be!
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=15886834

lol, it is NOT physical pain by any stress, nor is it severe mental pain. It is being faced with the knowledge that if you do not take action to stop it, you will die. That is what it is. It is similar to what you face as a soldier or a terrorist, stuff they signed up for. Pain isn't always and doesn't have to be part of being a soldier, but that mental stress is inherently part of it. (I would think it is the same with being a terrorist) That mental stress (and that is what it is, stress, not pain) is nothing but a realisation that you are helpless, similar to what recruits to the Marine Corps get. :P I don't care what the State of Texas classified as torture. And you have to remember, did the police officer use the same controlled methods that the CIA used? There are many different (and much more brutal as well as painful and even deadly) was to waterboard people. They are very different than what the CIA used though.

[Fixiwee]

It is mental torture. Robert Baer stated that and he said that this form, nor anyother, does not work.
Have you even read the links I posted?

[Vuk]

It is mental torture. Robert Baer stated that and he said that this form, nor anyother, does not work.
Have you even read the links I posted?

You are missing the point. I don't care if Robert Baer says that it is torture. Many people say it is, and many people say it isn't. I had it done to me personally, and I can tell you it isn't. I get back to the States at the end of the month and I will have to make a video for your guys to see.

[Fixiwee]

Then a discussion with you is trivial and pointless. I can post you the definition of torture by the UN and/or the US and you will interprete it as non-torture. I can post links and prove and you will say: "No."
I will remain thinking that you are ignorant to the facts and your presumption is only based on empirical experience.
It is facts I want.

[Vuk]

Then a discussion with you is trivial and pointless. I can post you the definition of torture by the UN and/or the US and you will interprete it as non-torture. I can post links and prove and you will say: "No."
I will remain thinking that you are ignorant to the facts and your presumption is only based on empirical experience.
It is facts I want.

And the fact is that the definition that YOU presented does NOT classify it as torture. You are trying to post someone's opinion as proof, and I said it was that opinion that did not matter to me.

1. For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/h_cat39.htm

By the definition you gave and just by basic common sense, the waterboarding the Bush administration authorized is NOT torture.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Vuk, I strongly suggest that if you intend to play at torture for real, you stop right now.

Either you don't know what you're doing, or you stand a very real chance of injuring or killing someone.

Furthermore, posting a video of such personal abuse will immediately get you banned from this forum. There's a video of Peter Hitchens submitting to waterboarding if you wish to look it up and save yourself the trouble.

[Vuk]

Vuk, I strongly suggest that if you intend to play at torture for real, you stop right now.

Either you don't know what you're doing, or you stand a very real chance of injuring or killing someone.

Furthermore, posting a video of such personal abuse will immediately get you banned from this forum. There's a video of Peter Hitchens submitting to waterboarding if you wish to look it up and save yourself the trouble.

I would be banned for showing a video of myself being waterboarded...for the express purpose of showing that it is NOT torture...? There are tons of videos of highschool students doing very similar things on dares like a bunch of idiots. The whole point I am making is it is the type of thing where you will only get hurt or die if you choose! It is not torture, it is just giving someone a choice with one real solution. Forcing someone to tell you something is not necassarily the same as torture, that is my point. And BG, three friends of mine from the army and I submitted ourselves to waterboarding (in a very controlled environment), and I know what it is like. I would not get killed, because I would tap myself out first. I am not stupid or desperate enough to let myself die, and neither were any of the detainees.

[Banquo's Ghost]

There is a very real risk of heart failure, choking and panic attack leading to spasm injury. You have no idea what you are doing, neither do these alleged military friends.

You can make your points about torture without putting yourself at this level of risk. I note that in another thread you have claimed to be on the big side, physically. This raises your risk level even higher.

Your choice of course, but you will not be allowed to post a record of such an attempt because we may be judged as facilitating your idiocy.

[Vuk]

There is a very real risk of heart failure, choking and panic attack leading to spasm injury. You have no idea what you are doing, neither do these alleged military friends.

You can make your points about torture without putting yourself at this level of risk. I note that in another thread you have claimed to be on the big side, physically. This raises your risk level even higher.

Your choice of course, but you will not be allowed to post a record of such an attempt because we may be judged as facilitating your idiocy.

lol, I am on the larger side, and as of late, overweight as well (Sarmatian can attest to both of these, as he met me in person not too long ago). I realise the risks associated with it BG, your critism is not well founded. First of all, one of my buddies went through it before as part of his training. Second of all, I know enough to stay calm and not panic. As a matter of fact, the calmer you stay, the longer you last and the better it is. What causes people to break is their panic. I simply waiting till I was at the point where I believed damage could occur, and tapped out. As I said, it was very controlled. I will not post a video, so you will not be complicit in my suicide. :P

[Incongruous]

Oh look!

A boat!!!

http://www.usspueblo.org/v2f/inciden...dentframe.html

This one is a bit embarrasing really.

http://news.scotsman.com/riyadhbombi...ime.2783986.jp

This one too.

http://www.dailykos.com/special/Torture_memos

[Incongruous]

stupid and uneeded post.

[Vuk]

On December 12th, Hell Week began. The men and their bunks were crowded 12 to a room. Then the men of room 13 were taken to separate rooms for interrogation. "Why are you not sincere?", "Who is the CIA agent?", Who are the instigators?", "What did you do to make us lose face?" and "Who plotted the escape?" were some of the questions that were fired at the men. The North Koreans were truly serious this time as it was no holds barred. Men were beaten with fists, and kicked, hit with clubs and boards, on all parts of the body, and made to kneel down with poles behind the knees while guards jumped up and down on the ends of the poles. Then other suspected instigators and eventually, every crew member was interrogated and beaten during Hell Week. Then, abruptly it ended.

I see why you would not post a source Tribesy, because your whole argument was total bollox!

[PBI]

Do you not think there might be a slight difference between being waterboarded by your friends and being waterboarded by an interrogator who you suspect might not be too concerned if you accidentally died?

It's like arguing that tying someone up and inflicting pain on them is not torture because some couples do it to each other for fun. The actions may be similar, but the context is worlds apart. Suppose instead of making the victim think they are drowning, you put a loaded gun to their head and tell them you will kill them if they do not give you information. Don't you think it makes a difference to how likely you are to panic if you believe they will actually follow through on the threat?

[Fixiwee]

It is facts I want.

Still remains unanswered, Vuk.

[Vuk]

Do you not think there might be a slight difference between being waterboarded by your friends and being waterboarded by an interrogator who you suspect might not be too concerned if you accidentally died?

It's like arguing that tying someone up and inflicting pain on them is not torture because some couples do it to each other for fun. The actions may be similar, but the context is worlds apart. Suppose instead of making the victim think they are drowning, you put a loaded gun to their head and tell them you will kill them if they do not give you information. Don't you think it makes a difference to how likely you are to panic if you believe they will actually follow through on the threat?

Of course it would be much more alarming in real life, otherwise it would not work. At the same time though, if I did not tap out, I would have died, and I know that, same with them. It has to be extremely stressful, or else it will not work. Mental stress is not necessarily mental pain though, and certainly not physical pain, thus it is NOT torture. The argument that 'oh, you cannot put them under stressful conditions because that is not nice' is complete bollox! Sure, it is not nice, but it is not supposed to be. They are people whose main goal is to kill themselves and as many of us in the process, and information gathered from them could be very valuable. I do not (as previously stated) support torture for several reasons (including that they may not be guilty), but this is NOT torture, you are not causing them pain, and you are not injuring them. (unless it is misused, but the Bush administration did not ok the misuse of it) It is simply forcing them to confess without torturing them, and is actually quite ingenious. It is sure a heck of a lot more humane than a high school hazing!

@ Fixiwee: I already proved that it is not torture simply by applying your definition to it. If you wish to dispute that, you either have to explain how I applied it incorrectly, or declare your own definition invalid.

[Incongruous]

How could you construct the conditions and realities of an interrogation? Yelling, screaming, the stench, the hatred, the fear.

You cannot reacreate those conditions.

[Lemur]

You are missing the point. I don't care if Robert Baer says that it is torture. Many people say it is, and many people say it isn't.

In much the same way that "many" people say the Earth is round, and "many" people say the Earth is flat. There's a discrepancy between the two groups.

So you played at torture with friends and now you're a stone-cold expert on the subject. Color me unsurprised. Perhaps next you can jump off the roof of your garage to become an expert on aviation?

[Vuk]

In much the same way that "many" people say the Earth is round, and "many" people say the Earth is flat. There's a discrepancy between the two groups.

So you played at torture with friends and now you're a stone-cold expert on the subject. Color me unsurprised. Perhaps next you can jump off the roof of your garage to become an expert on aviation?

One is right and one is wrong Lemur, and both think they are right. Unlike in the earth case though, there are experts on both sides here. And no, I didn't say it made me an expert, or that it was a realistic recreation of the circumstances (something I have no desire to be put through). It does though let me understand what waterboarding is, and help me better classify it as torture or not. I was able to find out that it did NOT cause pain (which something has to to be torture), so it was a useful experiment. One of my army buddies who did it as well did it in the Army as part of his training. It is NOT torture Lem.

[PBI]

Of course it would be much more alarming in real life, otherwise it would not work. At the same time though, if I did not tap out, I would have died, and I know that, same with them.

Still, the fact remains that you were essentially in control of the situation. You could tap out as soon as you felt you couldn't take it anymore with no negative consequence other than loss of personal pride. Very different to being at the mercy of an interrogator who will keep going far past your comfort zone and will not stop until you break down and give him whatever he wants.

I also don't understand the distinction you draw between mental stress and mental suffering. What exactly is the difference, and how do you figure that making someone think they are about to die is not going to cause mental suffering?

[Lemur]

Vuk, then by your definition rape, if done properly and with plenty of lube, is not torture. If we choose to sodomize each and every detainee, this is in compliance with the Convention Against Torture, correct?

Besides which, as several sources I've linked to point out, the focus on waterboarding is misleading. The torture enhanced interrogation program was a program, with a combination of degrading and degenerative techniques used to break a man. Multiple sources have said that sleep deprivation was the most important element, not waterboarding.

But you and Sean Hannity believe that waterboarding is as American as apple pie, which makes me wonder why we once prosecuted it as a war crime.

Here are the "experts" who believe that waterboarding is an acceptable interrogation technique: North Korea, China, the Schutstaffel, the Gestapo, the Khmer Rouge, the Spanish Inquisition and the KGB. And of course Fox News. Fast company you're keeping.

I seriously did not think that you would be posting that.

Why? Because you think everyone who disagrees with you is as narrowly partisan as you appear to be? I have said repeatedly that I don't much care who is implicated; let justice fall where it must. Nobody should take any pleasure in what has to happen, and no party should be safe. The torture program was an error of the first magnitude, and many people have already paid with their lives.

[Tribesman]

I see why you would not post a source Tribesy, because your whole argument was total bollox!

You demonstrate that you are unable to read and comprehend yet again

but this is NOT torture

And again

It is NOT torture Lem.

And again , that one should have been so bloody obvious even the most ignorant should have been able to grasp it , so Vuk when your "buddy" had it done in training what part of the training was it ? was it the bit where they learn about errrrrr..... torture ?

[Vuk]

Vuk, then by your definition rape, if done properly and with plenty of lube, is not torture. If we choose to sodomize each and every detainee, this is in compliance with the Convention Against Torture, correct?

Besides which, as several sources I've linked to point out, the focus on waterboarding is misleading. The torture enhanced interrogation program was a program, with a combination of degrading and degenerative techniques used to break a man. Multiple sources have said that sleep deprivation was the most important element, not waterboarding.

But you and Sean Hannity believe that waterboarding is as American as apple pie, which makes me wonder why we once prosecuted it as a war crime.

Here are the "experts" who believe that waterboarding is an acceptable interrogation technique: North Korea, China, the Schutstaffel, the Gestapo, the Khmer Rouge, the Spanish Inquisition and the KGB. And of course Fox News. Fast company you're keeping.

ooo, Godwin already. That's the way Lemmy, "You associate with Hitler!" An intelligent way to win an argument.
(You are the one who started with the Godwin calling obsession, so don't blame me )

First of all, sexual degradation of ANY type is torture. I do not support any 'punishment' of sexual nature. I want to point out the difference for you here Lemmy. The program that the Bush Administration used is nothing at all like what was used by Nazis or Japanese. The techniques were completely different, and involved a great deal of physical pain and brutality, and often led to death. They are NOT the same thing, and cannot be compared. I never claimed that the 'waterboarding' used by Japan, Nazi Germany, the USSR, or anyone else was not torture. I was talking about the specific program oked by the Bush Administration.

Still, the fact remains that you were essentially in control of the situation. You could tap out as soon as you felt you couldn't take it anymore with no negative consequence other than loss of personal pride. Very different to being at the mercy of an interrogator who will keep going far past your comfort zone and will not stop until you break down and give him whatever he wants.

I also don't understand the distinction you draw between mental stress and mental suffering. What exactly is the difference, and how do you figure that making someone think they are about to die is not going to cause mental suffering?

You have to remember though, they could effectively 'tap out' too if it got too much for them and tell the information. The point was that they would feel like they would die if they did not, but the interrogators would not really allow any harm to come to them. It is tricking someone into thinking that they will be killed; they do not really kill them if they do not give out. They had to give out when they panicked, but they really knew that they would not be killed. That is why I say it is only mental stress. It is self induced mental stress. What is mental pain? Knowing you lost your family, your testicles, being sodomized or otherwise sexual assaulted, etc. Mental pain HAS to accompany physical pain of some sort (that is how it can be classified as pain). Doesn't mean that the physical pain has to be inflicted on him though. A guy watching his wife be tortured is mental pain, because he is feeling her physical pain.

[Vuk]

so Vuk when your "buddy" had it done in training what part of the training was it ? was it the bit where they learn about errrrrr..... torture ?

No, the part where they learn about interrogation AND torture. Two seperate things that are put together as the lines often cross.


EDIT:

Why? Because you think everyone who disagrees with you is as narrowly partisan as you appear to be? I have said repeatedly that I don't much care who is implicated; let justice fall where it must. Nobody should take any pleasure in what has to happen, and no party should be safe. The torture program was an error of the first magnitude, and many people have already paid with their lives.

Yup Lemur, I am a narrow minded partisan. *rolls eyes* Thank you for your opinion, but you really should not presume to know so much about me (esp after you saw how foolish I felt making the same mistake concerning you...but at least I admitted it was a mistake). I assure you, I am the farthest thing from partisan. I think the entire party system is inherently wrong and should be dismantled. I think you should vote solely on your beliefs and how well you think each candidate will fufill their role in the government. (I have in fact expressed this before) I have voted democrat before, and there are plenty of Republicans who I hate. Narrow-minded? Yeah, I guess so. I will only vote for and support someone who I think will do the best job. I am not daring enough and open-minded enough to support someone who goes against what I believe in or who I think will do a bad job of running the country.
Partisan though? Don't make me laugh.

[Fixiwee]

@ Fixiwee: I already proved that it is not torture simply by applying your definition to it. If you wish to dispute that, you either have to explain how I applied it incorrectly, or declare your own definition invalid.

False. You said that the definition by comon sense does not imply water boarding. That is your interpretation, not a fact.
I said that waterboarding is stressfull and thus mentaly abusing, others have proved that it even may lead to death, thus torture by definition. You have not disproved it, just stated your opinion on it. There are no facts with your opinion. Hence you are unable to see or understand the point I am trying to make. And that point is, waterboarding is torture per definition.

Which leads me to;

So you are saying "I have proof that you are wrong Vuk, but I am keeping it secret."
If you want to prove something, then prove it. Anyone can say "I know that you are wrong, but I will not tell you why. Take my word for it though, you are". Unless you can tell me WHY, then I am not gonna believe you.

I am using your own argument against you. Tricky.