Cheapskate Economics

**DaciaJC** · 04-10-2009, 02:55

I recently initiated a new Getai campaign, this time VH/M. For many tension-filled turns, I watched as Makedonia slowly inched upwards, gobbling up Serdike and trying to envelope me by striking at Tylis and Singidunum while I frantically attempted to build up my economic base and raise an army.

Much of my income at the time didn't come from trade or conquest but from other factions' gifts. I accepted no less than 20-25,000 mnai, I believe (to do this, I simply offered a single payment of 100 mnai, to which they responded by giving me a large sum of money in the spirit of brotherhood, etc).

However, soon the factions began to realize that their "investments" were getting no returns from me, and so whenever I tried getting more gifts, they countered by demanding a massive tribute spanning several turns, clearly an offer in their favor.

At one point, I accidentally accepted a deal of this type and was forced to pay 2400 mnai for two turns to the Romani in return for 250 mnai. On the second turn, however, I discovered that I had the option of canceling the tribute. The Romani representative took this announcement gravely, saying that "You left us few, that is to say, no, other options."

From there on, I made these types of deals with three factions (Romani, KH, and Lusotannan), getting several thousand mnai that very turn in return for a gargantuan tribute, which I promptly canceled. In this way, I jumped from 6600 to 30,000 mnai within three-fourths of a year. While each of the diplomats claimed "You left us no other choice", they willingly agreed to the same type of deal the next turn, three times in a row. Despite having taken about 12,000 mani from the Lusotannan, they remain my firm ally, and the others have exhibited no hostility.

However, I feel bad about ripping the AI so badly (and blatantly), and although I can RP this as wily double-dealing, I'm still of the opinion that it can be construed almost as cheating.

Has anybody else employed this method? Any opinions on how extensively it should be used? I suppose it could help those factions that fall immediately into backbreaking debt, but otherwise it just seems like it's a way to take advantage of the system. Thoughts?

**Aemilius Paulus** · 04-10-2009, 03:32

Wow. Never heard of this happening. I have gifted the AI numerous times, including the Saba, my allies in the Romani campaign. I gave them 400 mnai every turn for about thirty turns. As I have read before, doing that should have gave me a very good chance to be the lucky recipient of free AI money. Then they attacked me. Just to think that my very gold was used to beat their swords and spears...

Are you playing VH campaign difficulty? Factions have quite a bit of money on that level, and so they are much more generous.

**DaciaJC** · 04-10-2009, 04:36

Yes, I am playing Very Hard campaign, Moderate battle. I should point that I haven't actually gifted the AI anything (except the Makedonians, to ensure that they don't attack me). Here's an actual example to make things clear.

Proposal:
*Getai offers single payment of 100 mnai to KH*

Counterproposal:
*KH offers 4,867 mnai to Getai*
*KH demands regular tribute of 14,500 mnai for 16 seasons from Getai*

I accept the offer (getting the 4,867 mnai), and then I immediately inform KH that I am canceling the tribute. The KH diplomat says "Ah, boo, sucks to you" and we each go our merry ways.

And it seems like these ripoffs don't actually make a difference in the coffers of the victims. Rather, they're still turning a profit, most likely due to the money script.

**A Very Super Market** · 04-10-2009, 06:23

I have never had that. It is rather bizarre really.

**Jebivjetar** · 04-10-2009, 09:19

When ive been playing with Chartage i did a lot of blackmailing on Romans (i.e. "give us 10000 mnai/ accept or we will attack) when they had their armies fighting somewhere in Gaul, while their towns in Italy were unprotected. When i take most of their money, and they had no more money to pay the right for being in Italy, ive kick them off from there

**Drewski** · 04-10-2009, 13:06

Personally, The OP sounds to me like a huge exploit...but its an interesting find ;)

The diplomacy is so screwed up in RTW though, that I suppose there are exploits, and exploits.....

And on a similar theme, what the heck does "Please Do Not Attack, Accept or We Will Attack" possibly mean?, when you are already at war with said stooopid ai? So if I attack you will attack back? well doh...

I love any kind of rationale behind the inclusion of that bit of code...

EDIT: And no offence to anyone at all intended, but if you are constantly exploiting the extra mnai the ai get on very hard (i.e. effectively converting it into free currency for yourselves) , then you are actually playing at a lvl below H/M, as the only advantage the ai gets is its extra cash. You're only real struggle, comes from managing your finances in a way you can keep building and support the requisite armies. Take that away and well....

Just my opinion btw...

**Maion Maroneios** · 04-10-2009, 14:10

An exploit, yes and certainly interesting, but I wouldn't continue doing it. Mainly, this is going to make relations between you and the AI bad. Very bad. And this means, no getting any deals in the future.

Maion

**Rilder** · 04-10-2009, 14:34

Originally Posted by Maion Maroneios

An exploit, yes and certainly interesting, but I wouldn't continue doing it. Mainly, this is going to make relations between you and the AI bad. Very bad. And this means, no getting any deals in the future.

Maion

This is different then usual, how?

**Maion Maroneios** · 04-10-2009, 14:54

Maion

**Aemilius Paulus** · 04-10-2009, 15:13

Well, I play on alex.exe and the AI diplomacy is supposed to be significantly improved. I will see how this trick does in my campaign...

**Zradha Pahlavan** · 04-10-2009, 16:31

That's funny, whenever I play the AI hates me with a vengeance. They never give in to even the most generous request for a trade agreement.
Also, sometimes various factions that I am not at war with and which are nowhere near me launch crusades against me. At one point the Macedonians (which had lost much of their stuff to the other Greeks) decided to send all four of their finest armies along the long path from their homeland all the way to Seleucia just to attack me.

**DaciaJC** · 04-10-2009, 16:39

Originally Posted by Maion Maroneios

An exploit, yes and certainly interesting, but I wouldn't continue doing it. Mainly, this is going to make relations between you and the AI bad. Very bad. And this means, no getting any deals in the future.

Maion

This is what strikes me as interesting, the fact that those factions that I am ripping off continue to make these kind of deals, and that those factions that I was allied with before this exploit continue to be my willing brothers-in-arms. The factions seem to be completely oblivious to my fraud.

However, as Drewski pointed out so well, doing this exploit effectively lowers the challenge, and so I'll be giving back the mnai I "stole".

Strange that I should be the only one who has had this happen, as I recall it occurring in my first Getai campaign, but I had not known how to take advantage of it.

Oh, and I suppose I should ask: if I make a money offer to a faction, and they reply by gifting me with some mnai... would that be considered an exploit as well (if I accept the offer)?

**Zarax** · 04-11-2009, 07:40

Originally Posted by Drewski

Personally, The OP sounds to me like a huge exploit...but its an interesting find ;)

The diplomacy is so screwed up in RTW though, that I suppose there are exploits, and exploits.....

And on a similar theme, what the heck does "Please Do Not Attack, Accept or We Will Attack" possibly mean?, when you are already at war with said stooopid ai? So if I attack you will attack back? well doh...

I love any kind of rationale behind the inclusion of that bit of code...

I reached the conclusion that AI follows orders pretty much like if they had senate missions themselves.
If you check the senate text there is a actually a mission in which you have to ask please do not attack.
Unfortunately as diplomatic AI is disjointed from the mission AI (as you can see when senate is active for the player) and hostile to you they will try to comply by threathening you.

And that's pretty much the source of some of the most blatant AI faults.

**Drewski** · 04-11-2009, 12:15

Originally Posted by Zarax

I reached the conclusion that AI follows orders pretty much like if they had senate missions themselves.
If you check the senate text there is a actually a mission in which you have to ask please do not attack.
Unfortunately as diplomatic AI is disjointed from the mission AI (as you can see when senate is active for the player) and hostile to you they will try to comply by threathening you.

And that's pretty much the source of some of the most blatant AI faults.

Sounds quite logical on your part to me....

I just wished the diplomacy had been made at least a little clearer..

E.g. I want a peace treaty with ai X. So I offer a peace treaty and trade rights to X. Now there seem to be 3 responses..

a) is some form of "End the war, that's a good joke", which while often irritating and silly when you have beaten an ai down to its last city or two, is at least straight forward and understandable.

b) is "yes we accept" (or sometimes with a demand thrown in)

c) is the one the winds me up :- "We cannot meet this offer and must refuse"...again what the heck is that supposed to mean?? You get it too when you offer your map, as a straight swap for their map...If it's supposed to mean "We are unwilling to (trade) peace or trade maps at this time", then I wish it would say so....for a complex game, its highly simplistic.