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Thread: Sit down position...

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    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
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    Default Sit down position...

    When I play medieval-reinesaince TW games (M2TW and Empire), the pikemen's first row of men will sit down, but when I play EB, the phalangitai's first line is definitely not.... What's the advantage of the sit down position, or the all standing position is better?

    Oh and another sit down questions, I hope the Triarii got all of them sit down when really idle, as they usually depicted to sit in one knee to save their stamina...

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    Slixpoitation Member A Very Super Market's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sit down position...

    Phalangites have spears that are too long to use the bracing position used by medieval pikeman. I would project above towards nothing in particular.
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    master of the wierd people Member Ibrahim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sit down position...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cute Wolf View Post
    When I play medieval-reinesaince TW games (M2TW and Empire), the pikemen's first row of men will sit down, but when I play EB, the phalangitai's first line is definitely not.... What's the advantage of the sit down position, or the all standing position is better?

    Oh and another sit down questions, I hope the Triarii got all of them sit down when really idle, as they usually depicted to sit in one knee to save their stamina...
    the sit down is actually a kneel, the purpose IIRC is to brace for a cavalry attack-the idea being that the spears of those standing lance the rider or the shoulders, the kneelers get the belly. this was in other words, a defensive posture-on the attack the pikemen would go forward with pikes at the shoulder (contrary to M2TW).*

    IIRC, there was also a forum thread regarding how the front rank kneeling deal was used by Pergamenes to fight the Galatians, to keep them from rolling under the pikes (It was I think in the EB 1 forums)

    *I'm referring to medieval and renaissance practice.the pike drill was alo used by regulars from the 18th century, in the UK until 1764 9though it was practically abandoned in north America by 1759)

    EDIT: if anyone is confused about the above shoulder part, here is a picture:



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    Last edited by Ibrahim; 04-19-2009 at 03:38.
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    Satalextos Basileus Seron Member satalexton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sit down position...

    certainly the pezhetairoi, with all their drilling, would have far more tricks up their sleeves than to stand there pointing their sarrisae in the right direction....I'd imagine they would have drills for different sorts of situations, similar to the swiss 1k years later.




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    Default Re: Sit down position...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibrahim View Post
    IIRC, there was also a forum thread regarding how the front rank kneeling deal was used by Pergamenes to fight the Galatians, to keep them from rolling under the pikes (It was I think in the EB 1 forums)
    This has been mentioned before, and it is entirely unsubstantiated. We neither have evidence that Galatians rolled under the sarissae of phalangites to attack the phalanx (we don't have any information at all about how Galatians faced a phalanx) nor do we have any evidence that phalangites ever fought in any position other than standing.

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    master of the wierd people Member Ibrahim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sit down position...

    Quote Originally Posted by MeinPanzer View Post
    This has been mentioned before, and it is entirely unsubstantiated. We neither have evidence that Galatians rolled under the sarissae of phalangites to attack the phalanx (we don't have any information at all about how Galatians faced a phalanx) nor do we have any evidence that phalangites ever fought in any position other than standing.
    I see-I was just citing the thread. didn't know it was falsified.
    Last edited by Ibrahim; 04-18-2009 at 03:27.
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    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sit down position...

    @Ibrahim
    did they actually crawl under the sarrisa, or just dodging the sarrisa? I know that the Spanish swordsmen did something to face the phalanx (pike wall formation) from the front in medieval times... (perhaps the Lusotann did also?)

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    Default Re: Sit down position...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibrahim View Post
    I see-I was just citing the thread. didn't know it was falsified.
    Actually it is not falsified either. It is unconfirmed but not falsified. Still I'd doubt JMRC would make another set of animations purely for the benefit of vague ideas about hypothetical thechniques without much of a basis...
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    master of the wierd people Member Ibrahim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sit down position...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cute Wolf View Post
    @Ibrahim
    did they actually crawl under the sarrisa, or just dodging the sarrisa? I know that the Spanish swordsmen did something to face the phalanx (pike wall formation) from the front in medieval times... (perhaps the Lusotann did also?)
    the spanish buckler men, the German two handed swodsmen, etc, all had the same approach really: use a sword (and in spain's case, a buckler) to cut, hack, or seperate the pikes, and get in close, ruining the pike formation. It was not an overly effective tactic for the Germans though-the Germans didn't keep that idea for long. dunno about spain.
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    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sit down position...

    Reminds me of the XGM mod, in that mod, the original phalanx formation was made somewhat loose and has more space between the pikes... The favt is, in this mod, you can break militia pikemen with Celtic Chosen Swords from the front without taking much casuality (but more elite and well trained pikemen didn't as easily... you'll suffer much casualities)

    Now what about the sit down position and the Roman Triarii... They should sit when they are not in combat...

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    Member Megas Methuselah's Avatar
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    Post Re: Sit down position...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cute Wolf View Post
    Now what about the sit down position and the Roman Triarii... They should sit when they are not in combat...
    That would be difficult to implement.

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    Default Re: Sit down position...

    Quote Originally Posted by MeinPanzer View Post
    This has been mentioned before, and it is entirely unsubstantiated. We neither have evidence that Galatians rolled under the sarissae of phalangites to attack the phalanx (we don't have any information at all about how Galatians faced a phalanx) nor do we have any evidence that phalangites ever fought in any position other than standing.
    Well we don't know they didn't either. Though we do know that both Hoplites and Legionaries would kneel to recieve cavalry. So it is not unreasonable.
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    Default Re: Sit down position...

    Quote Originally Posted by Megas Methuselah View Post
    That would be difficult to implement.
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    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sit down position...

    but I think, for the triarii, we can implement some of the animation of pikemen, which cause them to sit down (use the front line animation) when stand in guard mode... and didn't enggange anything...

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    Member Megas Methuselah's Avatar
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    Post Re: Sit down position...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cute Wolf View Post
    but I think, for the triarii, we can implement some of the animation of pikemen, which cause them to sit down (use the front line animation) when stand in guard mode... and didn't enggange anything...
    Go ahead and do it. When you're successful, come back and show us.

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    Default Re: Sit down position...

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Well we don't know they didn't either. Though we do know that both Hoplites and Legionaries would kneel to recieve cavalry. So it is not unreasonable.
    And yet we have several detailed sources that describe the Macedonian phalanx and its operation (Polybius and Asclepiodotus being the two most important) as well as numerous descriptions of battles facing numerous different types of troops, and none of them mention anything like this. Unlike hoplites or legionaries, phalangites were restricted in the actions they could perform due to the rigid formation of their phalanx, and so it seems very doubtful that they would do so.

    Plus, the claim that hoplites knelt to receive cavalry is hypothetical, and is AFAIK based solely on a handful of representations on vase paintings of kneeling hoplites, which in itself presents a number of flaws to this argument.

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    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sit down position...

    But when I implement the pikemen animation on the armoured sergeants, they instead go crazy with carrying their shields horizontally, and attack with the most impossible type of animation (they grip the spearhead! duh...) but their first line do rest in sit down position...... I suspect this need to be done on M2TW's "phalanx" formation, because if I put "phalanx" out, they didn't sit , but I have no more clue.... anyone can help?

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    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sit down position...

    It's also worth remembering that the Classical and Medieval pike doctrines evolved in very different contexts. Jus to point out the obvious difference, the former were essentially a mobile wall whose (original, anyway) purpose was to pin the enemy center in place for the cavalry to flank and destroy. The latter, conversely, was developed by a confederation which for most intents and purposes had no shock cavalry, and had to more or less depend entirely on their infantry for victory.

    Similarly, while the Classical phalangites fought in a long but comparatively thin line and were severely vulnerable to flanking should it become disjointed, the Medieval and later pikes operated mainly in huge rectangular "living fortresses", with integral missile and close-combat support troops, that could fight in all directions if need be; the Swiss at least usually deployed three en echelon, so that the "main" and "rearguard" squares covered the flanks of the vanguard formation.

    Regarding the "close assault" troops used to create holes in pike lines, AFAIK the two-handed sword stopped being an effective pike-chopper chiefly because everybody started unsportinly adding long metal strips (usually called "langets", IIRC) to their pike-shafts as a reinforcement...
    Anyway, the standard kit for such "assault infantry" was a mixture of big swords, polearms, swords and shields and - rather importantly - good armour; AFAIK "three-quarters" plate (that is, full body and arm defences plus the upper legs) was common...
    Quite a far cry from what the warriors of Antiquity had to make do with, obviously.

    Proper knights and men-at-arms, of course, then sported some of the best defensive gear mankind has ever devised (before modern times anyway) and when dismounted were often a very serious headache for even the best pikemen. I've also seen references of 1500s French Gendarmes - arguably the apex of the European "heavy lancer" concept - in fact on occasion having been capable of punching a lance charge right through a Swiss square, although to no great effect as the blighters just closed ranks over their casualties afterwards...
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    Pharaoh Member Majd il-Romani's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sit down position...

    Quote Originally Posted by Megas Methuselah View Post
    That would be difficult to implement.
    in M2, when infantry are being deployed pre-battle (and even when the battle starts but the enemy is not very close) the men just stand around at ease (and their formation is looser) or they cheer. When they cheer, sometimes a man drops to his knees, why cant you implement all the triarii dropping to their knees when they are at ease? is it possible? just throwing ideas out here
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    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sit down position...

    A maniple of sit down and cheering triarii!!!

    You must play the Teutonic campaign... actually in other kingdoms campaign, they didn't cheer too much...

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    Member Member Macilrille's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sit down position...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibrahim View Post
    the spanish buckler men, the German two handed swodsmen, etc, all had the same approach really: use a sword (and in spain's case, a buckler) to cut, hack, or seperate the pikes, and get in close, ruining the pike formation. It was not an overly effective tactic for the Germans though-the Germans didn't keep that idea for long. dunno about spain.
    I have adressed this in the abovementioned thread. The Spaniards fared quite well with that technique.
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    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sit down position...

    Even though this probably wouldn't work, has anyone tried hide_anywhere with the cannot_hide modifiers in the EDU to make kneeling Triarii?
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