Sit down position...

[Ibrahim]

When I play medieval-reinesaince TW games (M2TW and Empire), the pikemen's first row of men will sit down, but when I play EB, the phalangitai's first line is definitely not.... What's the advantage of the sit down position, or the all standing position is better?

Oh and another sit down questions, I hope the Triarii got all of them sit down when really idle, as they usually depicted to sit in one knee to save their stamina...

the sit down is actually a kneel, the purpose IIRC is to brace for a cavalry attack-the idea being that the spears of those standing lance the rider or the shoulders, the kneelers get the belly. this was in other words, a defensive posture-on the attack the pikemen would go forward with pikes at the shoulder (contrary to M2TW).*

IIRC, there was also a forum thread regarding how the front rank kneeling deal was used by Pergamenes to fight the Galatians, to keep them from rolling under the pikes (It was I think in the EB 1 forums)

*I'm referring to medieval and renaissance practice.the pike drill was alo used by regulars from the 18th century, in the UK until 1764 9though it was practically abandoned in north America by 1759)

EDIT: if anyone is confused about the above shoulder part, here is a picture:



citing fair use of copywrighted material..(from Osprey)

[satalexton]

certainly the pezhetairoi, with all their drilling, would have far more tricks up their sleeves than to stand there pointing their sarrisae in the right direction....I'd imagine they would have drills for different sorts of situations, similar to the swiss 1k years later.

[MeinPanzer]

IIRC, there was also a forum thread regarding how the front rank kneeling deal was used by Pergamenes to fight the Galatians, to keep them from rolling under the pikes (It was I think in the EB 1 forums)

This has been mentioned before, and it is entirely unsubstantiated. We neither have evidence that Galatians rolled under the sarissae of phalangites to attack the phalanx (we don't have any information at all about how Galatians faced a phalanx) nor do we have any evidence that phalangites ever fought in any position other than standing.

[Ibrahim]

This has been mentioned before, and it is entirely unsubstantiated. We neither have evidence that Galatians rolled under the sarissae of phalangites to attack the phalanx (we don't have any information at all about how Galatians faced a phalanx) nor do we have any evidence that phalangites ever fought in any position other than standing.

I see-I was just citing the thread. didn't know it was falsified.

[Cute Wolf]

@Ibrahim
did they actually crawl under the sarrisa, or just dodging the sarrisa? I know that the Spanish swordsmen did something to face the phalanx (pike wall formation) from the front in medieval times... (perhaps the Lusotann did also?)

[Ibrahim]

@Ibrahim
did they actually crawl under the sarrisa, or just dodging the sarrisa? I know that the Spanish swordsmen did something to face the phalanx (pike wall formation) from the front in medieval times... (perhaps the Lusotann did also?)

the spanish buckler men, the German two handed swodsmen, etc, all had the same approach really: use a sword (and in spain's case, a buckler) to cut, hack, or seperate the pikes, and get in close, ruining the pike formation. It was not an overly effective tactic for the Germans though-the Germans didn't keep that idea for long. dunno about spain.

[Cute Wolf]

Reminds me of the XGM mod, in that mod, the original phalanx formation was made somewhat loose and has more space between the pikes... The favt is, in this mod, you can break militia pikemen with Celtic Chosen Swords from the front without taking much casuality (but more elite and well trained pikemen didn't as easily... you'll suffer much casualities)

Now what about the sit down position and the Roman Triarii... They should sit when they are not in combat...

[Megas Methuselah]

Now what about the sit down position and the Roman Triarii... They should sit when they are not in combat...

That would be difficult to implement.

[Macilrille]

the spanish buckler men, the German two handed swodsmen, etc, all had the same approach really: use a sword (and in spain's case, a buckler) to cut, hack, or seperate the pikes, and get in close, ruining the pike formation. It was not an overly effective tactic for the Germans though-the Germans didn't keep that idea for long. dunno about spain.

I have adressed this in the abovementioned thread. The Spaniards fared quite well with that technique.

[antisocialmunky]

Even though this probably wouldn't work, has anyone tried hide_anywhere with the cannot_hide modifiers in the EDU to make kneeling Triarii?

[Tellos Athenaios]

I see-I was just citing the thread. didn't know it was falsified.

Actually it is not falsified either. It is unconfirmed but not falsified. Still I'd doubt JMRC would make another set of animations purely for the benefit of vague ideas about hypothetical thechniques without much of a basis...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

This has been mentioned before, and it is entirely unsubstantiated. We neither have evidence that Galatians rolled under the sarissae of phalangites to attack the phalanx (we don't have any information at all about how Galatians faced a phalanx) nor do we have any evidence that phalangites ever fought in any position other than standing.

Well we don't know they didn't either. Though we do know that both Hoplites and Legionaries would kneel to recieve cavalry. So it is not unreasonable.

[MeinPanzer]

Well we don't know they didn't either. Though we do know that both Hoplites and Legionaries would kneel to recieve cavalry. So it is not unreasonable.

And yet we have several detailed sources that describe the Macedonian phalanx and its operation (Polybius and Asclepiodotus being the two most important) as well as numerous descriptions of battles facing numerous different types of troops, and none of them mention anything like this. Unlike hoplites or legionaries, phalangites were restricted in the actions they could perform due to the rigid formation of their phalanx, and so it seems very doubtful that they would do so.

Plus, the claim that hoplites knelt to receive cavalry is hypothetical, and is AFAIK based solely on a handful of representations on vase paintings of kneeling hoplites, which in itself presents a number of flaws to this argument.