Republika Molotova Revolts

**KarlXII** · 04-19-2009, 18:05

Originally Posted by Fragony

t's especially distasteful when it's done by people from some powerful countries in the west, as precisely those countries, together with Russia, had their big, fat, greedy paws into every little thing that's happened in the Balkans in the last 200 years

Not relevant? Would love to hear more about that.

What does me being a Westerner have anything to do with this? Am I not allowed an opinion due to the fact I'm from a country that bombed Serbia?

**Fragony** · 04-20-2009, 09:51

Originally Posted by KarlXII

What does me being a Westerner have anything to do with this? Am I not allowed an opinion due to the fact I'm from a country that bombed Serbia?

Nothing, I was just pointing out that Sarmatian is correct. The Balkan has always been the playing field of the powers, you can't just take out a single event even if it was rather horrible.

to give you a bit of an idea

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

edit, I put some spoiler tags there for a reason, no direct link to nasty imagery but if you are looking for them you will certainly find them, so viewers discretion be warned.

**LittleGrizzly** · 04-20-2009, 12:29

I quite like the idea that we can blame world war 1 on the balkans...

Picture the scene its 1911 and europe is a place full of hippies and peace activists, France and Germany are best buddies and everyone loves everyone else and they all decided to make a pact to be friends forever and never declare war...

The evil residents of the Balkans saw all this happiness and couldn't bare to see such a peaceful happy world, and with a single shot they turned the best buddies in europe all into raging enemies...

Europe was a tinder box, the assassination was simply the spark... i think alot more blame has to go on the major powers for setting the scene...

**Cronos Impera** · 04-20-2009, 13:31

So the morale is that wounds never heal and that blood/ethnic affliations shall always be more powerfull than racial/religious/national/international ones.No matter what actions those superpowers might undertake to supress blood/ethnic affiliations their best hope is assimilation/uprooting. You can't create a multiethnic entity without assimilating the main ethnicities.
You can't claim to preserve the ethnic identity of your minorities while in a national state and still exist as a national state.
Just like Texas. No matter how many Spanish or US immigrants flock there to eat quality beef or just witness a rodeo, at the end of the day Texas remains Texas with Chuck Norris as its Prophet.
Same goes for each spot on the face of this Earth.

**Strike For The South** · 04-20-2009, 19:18

Originally Posted by Cronos Impera

So the morale is that wounds never heal and that blood/ethnic affliations shall always be more powerfull than racial/religious/national/international ones.No matter what actions those superpowers might undertake to supress blood/ethnic affiliations their best hope is assimilation/uprooting. You can't create a multiethnic entity without assimilating the main ethnicities.
You can't claim to preserve the ethnic identity of your minorities while in a national state and still exist as a national state.
Just like Texas. No matter how many Spanish or US immigrants flock there to eat quality beef or just witness a rodeo, at the end of the day Texas remains Texas with Chuck Norris as its Prophet.
Same goes for each spot on the face of this Earth.

I like how Texas has become the benchmark for comparison in the Tavern. My work is done.

**Husar** · 04-20-2009, 16:52

Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly

Europe was a tinder box, the assassination was simply the spark... i think alot more blame has to go on the major powers for setting the scene...

To be precise, Austria, France and a certain Wilhelm II., his political staff and everyone who actually liked this airhead.

Austria for being a bunch of roalists who actually cared about their inbred royal family members so much to declare a war and risk thousands of lives for the death of one.
France for wanting the war and indirectly telling Germany they'd fall into our backs once the war started.
And Wilhelm II. and large parts of the german population who also wanted "a place under the sun", ruined all the diplomatic efforts of their predecessors and then gave those royalists mentioned above a blank cheque.

Oh and then I guess everyone else was looking forward to the heroic slaughter as well, so yes, it's hard to make out anyone specific to blame, but it was easy for the victors.

One just gets the impression that some parts of the eastern european/balkan population have not really left such nationalistic mindsets behind, but then neither have some western countries, I can think of one that always has to have a flag in the background of every TV news show and at least one that thinks it is so great it doesn't need anyone else.

**LittleGrizzly** · 04-20-2009, 19:53

I think Austria deserves a good share of the blame... of the demands they made on serbia (IIRC) the only one that serbia rejected was ceeding land to Austria... every other condition they asked for was met...

I can't understand how Germany was so confident, if the Russians hadn't had thier revolution they would have been fighting on two fronts...

I think the two other major powers deserve thier share of blame as well

Russia helped start the thing then went and had a revolution

Russia and France had a pact that if one was attacked the other would attack.... this strengthened thier confidence and made Germany more angry/scared basically made them feel under threat... to which they responded aggressively...

Im not sure what to put down to Britian but by simply being a mjor power and part of the network of alliances they helped encourage the march to war...

Everyone was well up for it though... apparently they were going to win by Christmas... all of them... I guess they could all be called extremely arrogant in that way...

One just gets the impression that some parts of the eastern european/balkan population have not really left such nationalistic mindsets behind, but then neither have some western countries, I can think of one that always has to have a flag in the background of every TV news show and at least one that thinks it is so great it doesn't need anyone else.

You want to hear some petty nationalism... talk to a welshman about the english

When we started talking nationalism that country sprung to my mind as well... Im guessing Israel would be fairly nationalistic, seige mentality combined with glorious victorys whilst outnumbered, I find thiers somewhat more understandable...

**Evil_Maniac From Mars** · 04-20-2009, 21:14

Husar, you forgot about Russia.

**LittleGrizzly** · 04-20-2009, 21:49

One last one!

IIRC (thinking about making this a permanent disclaimer in my sig) from a great argument Ser had with ?? about WW1, I learnt that Russia and France mobilised thier troops before Germany did, mobilisation was all but a declaration of war as the powers simply couldn't mobilise them and have them sitting there...

lot less sure this bit but i think the Germans declared war and then mobilised thier troops... which seems the proper way to do it... this did mean however that Germany declared war before France and Russia... which gives out blame rights to French and Russians when not looking fully into the history...

**Sarmatian** · 04-20-2009, 23:02

Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly

I think Austria deserves a good share of the blame... of the demands they made on serbia (IIRC) the only one that serbia rejected was ceeding land to Austria... every other condition they asked for was met...

I can't understand how Germany was so confident, if the Russians hadn't had thier revolution they would have been fighting on two fronts...

I think the two other major powers deserve thier share of blame as well

Russia helped start the thing then went and had a revolution

Russia and France had a pact that if one was attacked the other would attack.... this strengthened thier confidence and made Germany more angry/scared basically made them feel under threat... to which they responded aggressively...

Im not sure what to put down to Britian but by simply being a mjor power and part of the network of alliances they helped encourage the march to war...

Everyone was well up for it though... apparently they were going to win by Christmas... all of them... I guess they could all be called extremely arrogant in that way...

It's a bit more complicated that. Austrian annexation of Bosnia had a lot to do with that. Serbia was outraged by that like a ditched woman and complained to the Russians. Russians said "ok, we'll put some pressure on the Austrians, don't you worry about it". Then Germans confirm to Austrians "we've got your back, knock yourself out". Russia decides Austria and Germany are a bit too much at the moment, backs down and loses face.

Come 1914, similar situation, Austria threatens war, has German backing. Russia supports Serbia again, condemns the assassination but warns Austria in no uncertain terms that it won't tolerate attack on its ally. Russia is in much better position now, being allied with France and starts mobilizing troops along Austrian border. Germany panics because their entire war plan is based on defeating France first. They demand that Russian stop mobilizing on Austrian border at that the refusal would mean war. Russia refuses and then starts mobilizing forces on the German border. UK tries to organize a peace conference between Russia and Austria (and France and Germany as their allies). Russia and France agree, Germany refuses and advises Austria to do the same. Austria attack Serbia. Kaiser starts having second thoughts but all the wheels are already set in motion. Russia declares war on Austria. Germany declares war on France and Russia. In UK there is still no consensus, they only agree to close the channel to belligerent vessels. Germany demands right of passage through Belgium. Belgium refuses, citing the treaty of neutrality, signed by France, UK and Prussia. Germany declares war on Belgium, Britain then declares war on Germany.

There's a lot blame to go around.

Serbia sees itself as "Balkan Piedmont", wants to organize all South Slavs in a single state. Relatively strong war lobby, but doesn't want war in 1914. Two Balkan Wars just ended, country is in bad shape, needs to recover. Time works for Serbia, Austrian position is weakening daily and Russian is strengthening.

Austria - knows its position is weakening, opposed it are more compact national states. Serbian power is rising and it may bring complications to their land in the Balkans and among Slavic population in the dual monarchy. Wants to deal with Serbia as soon as possible. Entire government wants war, Franz Joseph is too old to do anything.

Russia - uncomfortable with German-Austrian alliance in the middle of Europe. Bound by treaty with Serbia, can't afford to lose face again and leave its ally hanging.

Germany - afraid of Russo-French alliance, feels isolated, Austria only ally. Defeat of Austria means Germany is practically alone. Worried about Russian army reform after Russo-Japanese war. Wants to expand colonial possessions.

France - resentment after the defeat in 1871, uncomfortable with a powerful Germany next to it and bound by alliance with Russia.

UK - isn't sure what its supposed to do, feels honour bound to assist the French, also fearful of balance of power that would be in Europe should Austria and Germany prevail, which would also bring a lot of problems for its colonial possessions.

If I had to delegate guilt, I'd say: 1.Austria, 2. Germany, 3. Russia, 4. France, 5. UK. Didn't put Serbia simply because it's not an important factor and even if it wanted war it would have to abandon it if a compromise between the great powers was reached. Like in the case of Austrian annexation of Bosnia some time before ww1, Serbia could bitch and moan but wouldn't be able to do anything.

**Evil_Maniac From Mars** · 04-20-2009, 23:17

Russia at the very least is as or more guilty than Germany, and possibly also France. I don't disagree with Austria at the top of the list, or the UK at the bottom.

**LittleGrizzly** · 04-20-2009, 23:17

I knew about the chain of alliances... I did not know about the Austrians snatching a 'province' (TW term) what year was this ?

I also didn't know about the British attempt at a peace conference.. they were still complicit in the thing... but i think i will judge them less harshly next time I talk of it..

I like the description of UK's entry into the war, something like Britian has gone to war over a scrap of paper (belgian treaty)

Also the various descriptions of the countrys were intresting... I plan on doing a 5000 word essay on the causes of WW1 so this is all really helpful stuff...