Republika Molotova Revolts

[Slyspy]

I actually think we mean the same thing, but are both unclear in precise terminology. I mean that there are few meaningful 'hard' geographical divisions. Everything else is cultural geography.


Apparently, they don't indeed. And apparently, they prefer to live under comunist rule as well. And no, I do not feel fine about that, although we shall have to accept it.

I myself, of course, am embedded in a Western / EU / democracy discourse*. (Which leads me to support as well the pro-Romanian, pro-unification, pro-Nato side)

This in contrast to the anti-Western / Anti-EU / communist discourse. (To which belong pro-Russia, anti-Romanian, anti-NATO)


*The West, except much of the UK. Which supports the communists, Russia, and anti-NATO side, in a bid to placate domestic hyper anti-EU sentiments.

Is this the good old Western idea of democracy for all, except when we don't like the results?

[Louis VI the Fat]

Is this the good old Western idea of democracy for all, except when we don't like the results?

Why, as far as I am concerned, indeed it is. But I would rather name it the good old Western dilemma: should democracy be able to vote itself out of existence?

Can 50 percent +1 decide to curb the rights of the minority? Can fifty percent plus one democratically decide to murder the other fifty percent minus one?
Of course not. They can't, because 'democracy' does not, as is sometimes assumes, mean 'majority rule', but rather equality and the rule of law. To both of which, as history has shown, communism is an inveterate enemy.

[Vuk]

Why, as far as I am concerned, indeed it is. But I would rather name it the good old Western dilemma: should democracy be able to vote itself out of existence?

Can 50 percent +1 decide to curb the rights of the minority? Can fifty percent plus one democratically decide to murder the other fifty percent minus one?
Of course not. They can't, because 'democracy' does not, as is sometimes assumes, mean 'majority rule', but rather equality and the rule of law. To both of which, as history has shown, communism is an inveterate enemy.

The US government is designed exactly NOT to infringe on the rights of either the majority or minority, so you are quite correct. Government is supposed to stay out of people's affiars, or else the few rich will oppress the poor, or the majority will oppress the minority.

[Husar]

The thing is, we have to save Moldavia because I heard it has the best girls and my personal experience supports that.

Maybe if our governments had cared about Moldavia and helped them before they voted for a communist party, they wouldn't have done it, but now China and Russia might help them and strengthen the commies while the west boycotts and antagonizes them further until the carpet bombing starts.

[Cronos Impera]

Just to start a little history thread with a little help of Geography.

Here is the Republic of Moldova (purple) without Transdneister and the rest of Moldova (brown) as a historical province of Romania.I come from the brown-and-green part of the map and internally I am also called a "Moldovan". Moldovenaul is also the name given to the highest peak in Romania (2545 m).Calling Romanians biased and racist about Moldova is like calling Americans biased against Texas which is obviously bull**** since Texans are Americans.
After nationality there is always regional pride (like SFTS has clearly shown here) but even Texans understand the difference between group and sub-group. There is no cultural shock when a Texan goes to New York or to California. A climate shock maybe, but not a national/ethnic shock.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Romania is a nation-state founded by the unification between Moldova and Wallachia (not Moldova and Romania as some "Moldovans" claim) after the Paris Congress. Back then, the dominant superpowers ware Prussia, United Kingdom, Russia and Austria. Those European superpowers firstly consolidated Russia's claim over Bessarabia (gained from the Ottoman Empire in 1812) and then denied Romanians (Wallachians and Moldovans) the right to unite in a single national state, insisting on the creation of a federal state like the later Austro-Hungarian Empire.
Of course they didn't say anything about the possibility of electing a Domn (equivalent to monarch or king) in both states so the two national assemblies fromed "ad-hoc" or "on-the-spot" elected Alexandru Ioan Cuza ( a cavalry officer from Moldova) to rule over both Moldova and Wallachia.
This effectively meant the unification of Wallachia and Moldova into one state: Romania.
Then for the first time two parties formed : "the Romanian whigs" and "the Romanian torries" and both decided it was time to import a German Hohenzollern as King because they needed an unbiased arbiter to moderate political life. His military experience during the Prussio-Austrian War proved invaluable for The Independence War. Afterwards we had his nephew, Ferdiand and a Windsor Queen "Mary" during the Great War and Early Interwar Years before the Great Depression.
Then came the Republic and everything fell apart (the land reforms, free education plans, just about everything).
The Republic of Moldova <<Bessarabia>> (without Trandneister) comprised 36% of Moldova when it was annexed by Russia. Taking advantage of the Cyrillic alpahbet in use at that time and their superioar assimilation skills, Russians slowly managed to build a presence there during the Romanov Empire.
After the Great War, Bessarabia was the first historical province to unite with Romania, taking advantage of the chaos of the Civil War in Russia. This was ratified in the National Assembly of Bessarabia.
During and before the Interwar period, Moldovan was used in Romania just like Texan, Dixie, Yankee and Californian are used in USA, to help pinpoint a place of birth rather than a nationality (since you can speak of a Moldovan nationality like you can call dixie a separate nationality in the US, dispite some subtle accent differences).
The Comintern took advantage of this small distinction and used it to destroy Romania, percieved as a threat to Stalin's plans in the same way as Poland or Finland.
Thus MSSR was created in today's Transdneister region as a laboratory for the creation of the Moldavian ethnicity with the purpose of creating a Moldavian identity separate from Romanian so that these "test-tubes" would declare war on Romania and "liberate" Besarabia, Bukovina and ultimately Moldova itself from the "Romanian opressors".The "founding fathers" of the Republic ware mostly communist dissidendts and Soviet KGB. After the creation of the MSSR the Soviets embarked on a series of lingvistic experiments like those carried on English to develop Newspeak.The Romanian language spoken was injected with Russian neologisms, stripped of obvious "Latin" elements and thousands of words ware eliminated from the basic vocabulary untill only regionalisms survived.The rest was filled with Russian/Slavonic terms. This is how "Moldavian" as a language different from Romanian was born. However, The Great Purges of the thirties halted this experiments as the commisars entrusted with their development ware sent to gulags for Trotzkym.
WW2 allowed them such a victory as Soviet forces occupied Bessarabia, North Bukovina and Herta. Millions of Romanians from those teritories ware sent to gulags, settled in Syberia or Kazakhstan or simply killed. However in Bessarabia and Bukovina still remained over two million Romanians.
The collapse of the Soviet Union created an opportunity for a reunification with Romania as it happened previously in 1918, or for MSSR to join Ukraine or even Russia. Faced with brakeaway Gagauz and Transdneister regions, the liders of that period decided that sitting naked bith the buttocks between two hulls was the best option.
Thus The Republic of Moldova was created, born of a Romanian motherland and a Russian fatherland this bastard state survives only by recieving aid from both (it's like international courts declaring a child an orphan and demanding the parents pay full child support).
While being independent Moldova's official policy has been to censor any Romanian material with "Romanian" written on it from being published.
After all, both countries share most historical and cultural figures (except those which ware born during the Soviet era), the name of the currency, and almost anything that was not forged during the Soviet occupation.
The consolidation of independece found the newly-liberated "Moldovans" facing the fascist Romanians (mostly elders from the Interwar period and a few pro-Romanian youth who benefited from the free scholarships).Their response was MURDER.Many champions of Romania ware either expelled or murdered. The execution method is always a car accident (either the victim is a pedestrian and gets killed on the pavement by an annonymous driver or he's pushed in a tree). Among the victims of the Republic ware Ion Aldea & Doina Teodorici and Grigore Vieru. "Moldova suverana" always sends letters to the mourning families expressing their grief and regret and their death is forgotten.
Even worse, to ensure the survival of Moldova as an independent republic, those s***heads have started to produce their own version of the Minitrue, with Vasile Stati as head speaker for a non-existent language.

Imagine SFTS you're Texan. Imagine some Mexican gringos escaping extradition forming their autonomous republic in Mexico. Imagine those gringos proclaming New Texas and claming you're assimilated and demanding the immediate incorporation of Texas into Mexico to save the Texan nation from American assimilation.Who cares Texans are Americans, the Republic of New Texas suits our interests to destabalise the region. Now imagine that Gringo telling you you're not Texan for refusing to accept an independent Texas. Wouldn't that make you take a gun and ******.

Moldovan independence is not like Austria's case. Austria and Prussia ware independent European powers which ware so influient and mighty they could act like poles of power in the German world.
Moldova's situation after independence ressembles that of FYROM. They claim ancient origins, they claim Romanian land, they have separatist regions that would soon declare their own independence and claim the highest poverty rates in Europe for that cause. Most heavy industry is situated in Transdneister so Moldova's only exports remain wine and brandy.
As an independent state Moldova will never join the EU or anything. Its policy is to remain "politically neutral" and that means getting in a position to recieve international aid without having to join anyone (neither Russia, Ukraine, or Romania for that matter).

[Cronos Impera]

Here is a political cartoon describing the stalemete.

[Prince Cobra]

I see your point but what do you suggest? What do you think that Romania shall do? Bulgaria has similiar story with Macedonia, Greece and Turkey with Cyprus, Serbia with Republika Sarbska in Bosnia (bad spelling), Hungary with Vojvodina and the Hungarian minority in Romania.

I think the only option is peaceful and economic collaboration between states + common culture programs and such nice things can show the Romanian (in your case) people they are not forgotten. If there is a violation of human rights then an active foreign policy can put this government on pressure + the perspective of EU integration (though there are certain, if not a lot, problems; this in long turn) can also help a lot.

I think force will be useless and harmful.

P.S. I am fed up with conflicts for changing the borders. As if such conflicts bring something different than suffering to the both sides.

[KarlXII]

Here is a political cartoon describing the stalemete.

I see a black, U.S. cowboy, an angry EU with a clock, and a lot of other images that looks like something out of a hippy kids Saturday morning cartoon. I cannot read the text, but I don't think I want to, given your stance.

[Louis VI the Fat]

There is no cultural shock when a Texan goes to New York

B..but in New York they eat with a knife and fork...

[rasoforos]

Calling Romanians biased and racist about Moldova is like calling Americans biased against Texas which is obviously bull**** since Texans are Americans.

Yes, if you consider Moldovans to the Romanians. Which the Moldovans do not (How many times do we have to repeat it?)

I can claim that the Chinese are Greeks and demand Shanghai to be united with our glorious Greek 'Motherland' but that is just silly, it won't make it happen, and the Chinese will quite rightly tell me to off (yes like the Moldovans do to Romanians!)...

Romania is a nation-state founded by the unification between Moldova and Wallachia.

Great! So if we rename Romania into Wallachia then it is problem solved! No need to assimilate any Moldovans.

Thus The Republic of Moldova was created, born of a Romanian motherland and a Russian fatherland this bastard state survives only by recieving aid from both (it's like international courts declaring a child an orphan and demanding the parents pay full child support).

Now now, to write a 2000 word essay on Moldovlachia just to bash them as a bastard state is uncalled for...

Also you should consider how much of my tax money is going to Romania as EU aid so I only get 20 Romanian people a day pestering me to clean my windscreen at the traffic lights for coins.

As I said before, Romania should clear it's own mess first and make sure it provides enough for it's citizens before caring about how poor Moldova is.

As an independent state Moldova will never join the EU or anything. Its policy is to remain "politically neutral" and that means getting in a position to recieve international aid without having to join anyone (neither Russia, Ukraine, or Romania for that matter).

Yes, it is called diplomacy...

...and I do not see a whole lot of trouble if they do not want to join. They have the right to, same as they have the right to not want to be annexed by Romania.

Cheers

[Prince Cobra]

I am sorry but this goes slightly to the other extreme. I will have to say few words.

Yes, if you consider Moldovans to the Romanians. Which the Moldovans do not (How many times do we have to repeat it?)

I can claim that the Chinese are Greeks and demand Shanghai to be united with our glorious Greek 'Motherland' but that is just silly, it won't make it happen, and the Chinese will quite rightly tell me to off (yes like the Moldovans do to Romanians!)...

Well, I think the closest case is Macedonia/Bulgaria and Cyprus/Greece and Turkey. I think there are many historical reasons to call the people of Moldavia people with "Romanian" origin. What is Romania: an union between Wallachia and Moldavia. Yet, this does not mean Romania shall annex Moldavia. In the same way as Cyprus was not annexed by Greece or Macedonia by Bulgaria. It's not how the modern policy shall work!

Now now, to write a 2000 word essay on Moldovlachia just to bash them as a bastard state is uncalled for...

Also you should consider how much of my tax money is going to Romania as EU aid so I only get 20 Romanian people a day pestering me to clean my windscreen at the traffic lights for coins.

As I said before, Romania should clear it's own mess first and make sure it provides enough for it's citizens before caring about how poor Moldova is.

You are right Romania and Bulgaria (I am Bulgarian btw) failed in many things. Yet, this does not mean they are lost causes. In the same way as Greece was not a lost cause after the WW2. We leave in one peninsula. Of course, the Romanian and Bulgarian people and politicians shall not sit idle but be as active as possible to develop their countries. For you are right, we can not rely on foreign money.

About paying money. If certain conditions are met, I see nothing bad in the near future Bulgaria to pay money for the integration say of Macedonia or Moldavia. But of course, EU is not charity.

And please, I am fed up with the image of the Bulgarians and Romanians as illegal workers or second-hand people. This is only one part of the picture. I know quite a good number people who earn their money (both in Bulgaria and abroad) honestly.

Yes, it is called diplomacy...

Cheers

Diplomacy is the key. Here I agree 100 per cent. Otherwise, I agree Cronos Impera was quite extreme in certain thoughts.

[Sarmatian]

I think it's a more of interests first, democracy second. If we can have both at the same time - great. If not, well, democracy will have to wait...

Seen on the example of Montenegro - Djukanovic is worse dictator than Milosevic ever was, but no one from democratic countries could care less as he's pro NATO... Good ol' case of Great Powers and the Balkan Question, the umpteenth part...

[Vuk]

I think it's a more of interests first, democracy second. If we can have both at the same time - great. If not, well, democracy will have to wait...

Seen on the example of Montenegro - Djukanovic is worse dictator than Milosevic ever was, but no one from democratic countries could care less as he's pro NATO... Good ol' case of Great Powers and the Balkan Question, the umpteenth part...

lol, this could potentially get very heated and very offtopic very quickly. :P

[Louis VI the Fat]

It's threads like this that keep me coming back to the Backroom.


We all have our little pet subjects. Mine is democracy and the EU in Europe. Below, a picture of protesters raising the EU flag over the Parliament in Chisinau. A glorious sight.




This being Moldova, the protesters were arrested, severly beaten, and tortured by the Moldovan authorities.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Moldovan music!!

Chipul tãu si dragostea din tei.


Edit: Which proves that anything sounds cool in a Latin language. Now that I think about it, Romanian has quite a nice, soft 'ring' to it. Great language.

[Cronos Impera]

Îmi amintesc de ochii tăi.
......
And I didn't even have to go to a Romanian-Moldavian dictionary for that.



It it just me, or does anybody find suspicious that the policemen allow them to raise the EU flag while doing nothing and than "arrest" them.
It looks to me like a set-up so the authorities could blame the protesters for attacking a public institution so they could shoot them at will.
It's nothing to cheer about actually. If you've read 1984 this tactic is simmilar enough to that used by O'Brian to lure Winston out of his defensive stance, to surprise him off-guard and eliminate him. Than you get the 2 minutes hate in the news bulletin about Romanian vandals attacking Moldova, so people there feel even more "Moldovan".
The other thing I remember was that during the protests the borders ware closed for Romanian citizens so very few, if any ware in MSSR. Those who had arrived in MSSR ware either arrested evacuated. But despite this, Voronin claims that "Moldovan freedom and sovereingty ware threatened by Romanian bandits and European agencies.I'll impose visas on Romanian citizens."

[Sarmatian]

It it just me, or does anybody find suspicious that the policemen allow them to raise the EU flag while doing nothing and than "arrest" them.

Fox Mulder, call your office please...

He's the only one who can get to the bottom of this. It might take him several seasons, but I don't see another way...