Republika Molotova Revolts

[KarlXII]

It's a good thing so many people care about Scandinavia... I spent entire day scratching my scrotum and thinking about it...

Just because you think you're better than anyone else and don't give a **** about Balkans, eastern Europe or whatever part of the world you don't deem civilized or worthy enough of being graced by your thoughts, it doesn't mean that people everywhere else are like that.

Other than war, ethnic nationalism and genocide, what has the Balkans shown for itself lately?

[Strike For The South]

Other than war, ethnic nationalism and genocide, what has the Balkans shown for itself lately?

Hey man, Eastern European women a HOT. Especially when they speak english with that accent. I'll be part of there gulag any time.

What has Sweeden shown besides Ikea and ripping off the Italians (one of Gods choosen people) with there subpar meatballs.

[KarlXII]

Hey man, Eastern European women a HOT. Especially when they speak english with that accent. I'll be part of there gulag any time.

What has Sweeden shown besides Ikea and ripping off the Italians (one of Gods choosen people) with there subpar meatballs.

Touche, but I don't get pissy when someone mentions it. Also, the Swedes aren't killing the Norwegians and the Norwegians aren't killing the Danes because of petty nationalism and ethnic differences.

[Strike For The South]

Touche, but I don't get pissy when someone mentions it. Also, the Swedes aren't killing the Norwegians and the Norwegians aren't killing the Danes because of petty nationalism and ethnic differences.

All I need to know

All of you just wish you were Americans. Granted all of you wish you were Frexans (French-Texas alliance) but we are a very selective bunch.

[KarlXII]

All I need to know

All of you just wish you were Americans. Granted all of you wish you were Frexans (French-Texas alliance) but we are a very selective bunch.

See? The King of Sweden loves Meatballs and Cooking!

I am American.....I thought I made that very clear a while ago.

[Strike For The South]

See? The King of Sweden loves Meatballs and Cooking!

I am American.....I thought I made that very clear a while ago.

I know, I just wanted you to prove my point. You dirty immigrant.

[KarlXII]

I know, I just wanted you to prove my point. You dirty immigrant.

Nah, that was my grandfather. Funny story about how he got here too.

[edyzmedieval]

I personally would take the M9 Beretta stashed in my basement and march on with other people to Moldavia.

No seriously, that place belongs rightfully to Romania, and Russia can off from that place, greedy . They have Siberia and other places, why do you need Moldavia?

[KarlXII]

I personally would take the M9 Beretta stashed in my basement and march on with other people to Moldavia.

Exactly my point about the Balkans/Eastern Europe.

No seriously, that place belongs rightfully to Romania, and Russia can off from that place, greedy

That place belongs to who the people decide it belongs to.

They have Siberia and other places, why do you need Moldavia?

Aren't we all jealous?

[Sarmatian]

Other than war, ethnic nationalism and genocide, what has the Balkans shown for itself lately?

Depends... If you watch CNN, not a lot... If you try to see for yourself, who knows...

Just to clarify some things, geographical area known today as the Balkans have played a rather important role in European history. Do I need to mention Constantinople or Athens, should I compare them to whatever village there was in Scandinavia at the time? I don't want a pissing contest, just respect that there is 50+ million people at the Balkans and that trying to sum it up as nationalism and genocide is about the same as summing up German history as Nazism... I've traveled around Europe, I've been to a lot of countries, even ventured to North America and Asia and I've never met so biased and narrow minded people as Scandinavians (Swedes especially, actually). Does that give me the right to portray Swedes, Norwegians or Scandinavians in general as some nationalist bigots? I don't think so, but hey, maybe I shouldn't give a **** and do it, like HoreTore does...

Simple respect - even if you don't respect history and cultural heritage of the Balkans (to which there's much more than what you've seen on TV), at least respect that there's a lot of people living there and that they just want to live normal lives... Don't put yourself or your country on a pedestal. The air may not be so clean down here but at least you get more accurate grasp of the situation...

[KarlXII]

Depends... If you watch CNN, not a lot... If you try to see for yourself, who knows...

So, first things first, I don't watch CNN, thank you very much.

Just to clarify some things, geographical area known today as the Balkans have played a rather important role in European history.

Who is denying this?

Do I need to mention Constantinople or Athens, should I compare them to whatever village there was in Scandinavia at the time?

Should I mention Athens/Constantinople/Rome/Paris/London/Berlin/Munich/Stockholm/Moscow/Novi Sad to add to the pissing contest?

I don't want a pissing contest,

Apparently you do if you bring up Greek achievements.

just respect that there is 50+ million people at the Balkans and that trying to sum it up as nationalism and genocide is about the same as summing up German history as Nazism...

How many times has Germany killed 6 million Jews and 2 million other unfavorables compared to the number of times Slavic and Balkan ethnicities killed each other because they were born in the wrong village.

I've traveled around Europe, I've been to a lot of countries, even ventured to North America and Asia and I've never met so biased and narrow minded people as Scandinavians (Swedes especially, actually).

You claim you don't want a pissing contest, yet you continue with...a pissing contest.

You must have met some pretty hardcore Swedes, as the one's I have met are liberal and open minded.

Does that give me the right to portray Swedes, Norwegians or Scandinavians in general as some nationalist bigots?

It does if you have proof that Scandinavians are somehow no better than the various groups that committed genocide and ethnic cleansing in the Balkans.

Simple respect - even if you don't respect history and cultural heritage of the Balkans

It's not that I don't respect the bloody history of the Balkans, but excuse me if I don't respect war crimes and ethnic violence that occurs so much due to the mix of Slavs, Austrians, Italians, Greeks and Muslims that inhabit it.

(to which there's much more than what you've seen on TV)

How is this relevant? I gain my knowledge from facts of history.

at least respect that there's a lot of people living there and that they just want to live normal lives...

When have I ever said the contrary?

I don't see, other than petty nationalism, what is so bad about saying that the Balkans have been a hotspot of genocide, ethnic violence and warfare. Who assassinated Franz Ferdinand? Which group enacted race laws, burned down churches, and killed Serbs during the Second World War? Who killed the people at Lašva Valley? Who massacred those Bosniaks at Srebrenica?

This isn't a matter of respect or opinion, these are historical events that have happened.

[Sarmatian]

snip

You obviously misunderstood my intention. I wasn't trying to start a pissing contest, I was merely trying to point out that there's a lot more to the Balkans than the wars in the 90's and that there's nothing so grand about Scandinavia and Scandinavians that gives them the right to look down on people, in the Balkans or anywhere else.

It's especially distasteful when it's done by people from some powerful countries in the west, as precisely those countries, together with Russia, had their big, fat, greedy paws into every little thing that's happened in the Balkans in the last 200 years.

[HoreTore]

You obviously misunderstood my intention. I wasn't trying to start a pissing contest, I was merely trying to point out that there's a lot more to the Balkans than the wars in the 90's and that there's nothing so grand about Scandinavia and Scandinavians that gives them the right to look down on people, in the Balkans or anywhere else.

Couldn't be more accurate.

[Husar]

Well, I'm a conservative in this matter, that's bad enough, keep it as it is and let Moldavia be it's own state, AFAIK it wants to be just that, is that and why should it not stay that? If they're having a revolution, let them have their revolution, but if you want them to belong to Romania in your reactionary ways, then let's re-establish pre-WW1 Germany as well.

[Sarmatian]

Bah, we should just reestablish Roman Empire and be done with it...

[KarlXII]

You obviously misunderstood my intention. I wasn't trying to start a pissing contest, I was merely trying to point out that there's a lot more to the Balkans than the wars in the 90's and that there's nothing so grand about Scandinavia and Scandinavians that gives them the right to look down on people, in the Balkans or anywhere else.

I'll try to hold ethnic nationalism, violence and genocide in a better light, as per your request .

It's especially distasteful when it's done by people from some powerful countries in the west, as precisely those countries, together with Russia, had their big, fat, greedy paws into every little thing that's happened in the Balkans in the last 200 years.

So? How is it relevant? I can't point out the long history of nationalism, war and genocides that have occured in the Balkans because you're a nationalist? I'm sorry, apparently facts don't sit well with you.

You continue to bring up Scandinavians like it matters. This thread isn't about Scandinavia, bringing them up is merely starting a pissing contest and trying to divert from the real point.

[Fragony]

So? How is it relevant? I can't point out the long history of nationalism, war and genocides that have occured in the Balkans because you're a nationalist? I'm sorry, apparently facts don't sit well with you.

t's especially distasteful when it's done by people from some powerful countries in the west, as precisely those countries, together with Russia, had their big, fat, greedy paws into every little thing that's happened in the Balkans in the last 200 years

Not relevant? Would love to hear more about that.

[KarlXII]

t's especially distasteful when it's done by people from some powerful countries in the west, as precisely those countries, together with Russia, had their big, fat, greedy paws into every little thing that's happened in the Balkans in the last 200 years

Not relevant? Would love to hear more about that.

What does me being a Westerner have anything to do with this? Am I not allowed an opinion due to the fact I'm from a country that bombed Serbia?

[Sarmatian]

I'll try to hold ethnic nationalism, violence and genocide in a better light, as per your request .

So? How is it relevant? I can't point out the long history of nationalism, war and genocides that have occured in the Balkans because you're a nationalist? I'm sorry, apparently facts don't sit well with you.

You continue to bring up Scandinavians like it matters. This thread isn't about Scandinavia, bringing them up is merely starting a pissing contest and trying to divert from the real point.

You can point out anything you like, freedom of speech is wonderful thing. Facts do sit well with me, it's just that you've got them wrong. Nationalism appeared in the Balkans at the beginning of 19th century, so there's no long history of nationalism here, no longer than anywhere else in Europe, anyhow.

For violence and wars, well, you got me there. Did happen, but here some news for you (don't spread it around, it's a very carefully guarded secret, I could get in trouble for sharing this with you) - new research show that it's not a concept unique to the Balkans and that in fact there have been nationalistic wars, ethnic violence and war crimes all around the world throughout history and that unfortunately there will probably be more in the future. Yeah, I know, I too was surprised by this radical new information. I'm very sorry if it bothers you that I refuse to feel particularly guilty and morally inferior because the wars in the 90's or those before them. I can only hope that it won't happen again, here or anywhere else. Unfortunately, it probably will, not a perfect world, bummer...

I feel there's a lot more the people living in the Balkans than nationalism and the ethnic hatred and I will always react when someone tries to say otherwise. About all the people living here, Serbs or Greeks, Bulgarians or Romanians, Croats or Albanians... If that offends you or makes me a nationalist in your opinion, well, frankly, it speaks more about you than about me... You (or anyone else for that matter) may feel morally superior to me or people around me who live in my country and those who live in neighbouring countries, but hey, I don't have to agree and I'll continue to consider people from this tiny little part of the world equal to people living anywhere else.

[KarlXII]

Show me where I said the Balkans is only a place of nationalism and war, show me where I disprespected the Balkan people, show me these accusations you like to make about me.

Did happen, but here some news for you (don't spread it around, it's a very carefully guarded secret, I could get in trouble for sharing this with you) - new research show that it's not a concept unique to the Balkans and that in fact there have been nationalistic wars, ethnic violence and war crimes all around the world throughout history and that unfortunately there will probably be more in the future.

Yes, there will, due to the vast ethnic make up and the nationalism. Don't downplay the fact that the Balkans is, and has been, a hotspot of ethnic violence and absurd nationalism.

I'm very sorry if it bothers you that I refuse to feel particularly guilty and morally inferior because the wars in the 90's or those before them.

Never mentioned this, stop making stuff up.

I feel there's a lot more the people living in the Balkans than nationalism and the ethnic hatred and I will always react when someone tries to say otherwise.

I never said the Balkans is just nationalism and hated, again, stop making stuff up. It is undeniable that the Balkans has historically has such a vast make up of various peoples that it has been a spot filled with ethnic violence and nationalism. If that offends you, I don't apologize because it's fact.This isn't about the people, this is about simple history.

If that offends you or makes me a nationalist in your opinion, well, frankly, it speaks more about you than about me...

When have I ever mentioned anything about the people other than the nationalism and ethnic violence?

You (or anyone else for that matter) may feel morally superior to me

Never said this, stop making stuff up.

I don't have to agree and I'll continue to consider people from this tiny little part of the world equal to people living anywhere else.

When did I say Serbs are Devils? Where did I say Bosniaks deserve death? I did not. Stop making stuff up.

It's absurd to think you'd find it offensive when we mention that the Balkans (Your homeland, which makes sense) has been a cluster of genocide and ethnic tension, and that this whole "MOLDAVIA IS ROMANIA" and "MOLDAVIA HATES ROMANIA" is nothing new. I find it even more absurd that you'd even mention Scandinavia in some stupid attempt to somehow downplay facts.

[HoreTore]

Do I need to mention Constantinople or Athens, should I compare them to whatever village there was in Scandinavia at the time?

Nope, since nobody cares about Scandinavia either.

Germany, UK, France, Spain and Italy, those are the basic countries people care about.

[Cronos Impera]

Nope, since nobody cares about Scandinavia either.

Germany, UK, France, Spain and Italy, those are the basic countries people care about.

Start producing quality Mead and export it abroad. Then you'll see people care again. And please, don't try experimenting with beer or wine. You'll piss a lot of people around here.

[HoreTore]

Start producing quality Mead and export it abroad. Then you'll see people care again. And please, don't try experimenting with beer or wine. You'll piss a lot of people around here.

Do you have any idea what kind of crap mead really is...?

It's a fruity wine. With an awful taste. And more than just slightly gay.

[Samurai Waki]

I thought Norway was known for it's awesome mead? I think nobody seems to care because they aren't invading the coasts of England and ransacking monasteries anymore.

[rasoforos]

I do not know where to start and when to finish with it.

The fact that 'Moldavia bashing' turned into 'Balkan bashing' shows how dangerous lack of geographical knowledge is.

Firstly to Kronos Imperia:

'This is the unofficial name of the Republic of Moldova, a country full of people who refuse to declare they're Russian/Romanian and name themselves Moldovan just to get free gas from Russia and an EU passport from Romania. This practical joke of a state is the very essance of opportunism and corruption.'

The Moldavians themselves present a very different idea than yours. They are not(mostly) Romanians and they are not Russians. Just because Romania wants to absorb them because it considers Moldova as part of Romania doesn't make it so.

No seriously, that place belongs rightfully to Romania, and Russia can off from that place, greedy . They have Siberia and other places

Edyzmedieval. Moldovans claim it too you know


Anyway my pro-Moldovan stance is in no way affiliated to, or influenced by, the fact that I receive some fine Moldovan brandy twice a year or so.




And please if anyone is going to bash the Balkans, please go to the watchtower and demand/petition for a dedicated Balkan Bashing sub-forum. I find the fact that we are being bashed as a side-subject inside a Moldovan bashing forum highly insulting and I will have none of it! We, sirs, deserve more

[Louis VI the Fat]

The Moldavians themselves present a very different idea than yours. They are not(mostly) Romanians and they are not Russians. Just because Romania wants to absorb them because it considers Moldova as part of Romania doesn't make it so.

I would like to see Moldova (re)united with Romania. Indeed Moldova is distinct. As are Wallachia, Transsylvania and Romanian Moldavia. No countries are a monolith. Yet the unification of some regions make sense. Moldova as a Romanian region is as sensible as Rhodes as a Greek region or Normandy as a French one. Or, to use a more apt example, as the five former East German Lands as part of a united Germany.

After 1989, Germany re-incorporated the eastern regions. (Mittel-Deutschland for you German ultra-nationalists). In Romania, it went wrong. Logically, Moldova should've been re-incorporated with the western regions of Romania, as happened in Germany. Alas, Romania went through one of the most prolonged processes to democracy of all of the former East European dictatorships.

Moldova itself relapsed into a petty communist state. A source of instability. Of Russian agitation. (To remain silent of transnistria...)

Democracy in Europe, Romania, and Moldova are not served by the continued existence of a petty, semi-dictatorial mobster state. (For clarity's sake: by which I mean Moldova, not Romania )



To give it a Balkan dimension: the retreat of the Austrian, British, Ottoman and Russian empires from the Balkan has been and is the long term goal. In the case of Moldova ('Bessarabia'), Russia is the power to be ousted. Sentiment in Greece and Serbia leans more towards Russia - their natural ally against the interference of other imperialist powers. Which, I guess, should explain for the varying opinion about the Republic of Moldova between Romania and Greece. I would enjoy a conversation between our posters from the region more than another tired debate about World Wars - which one can read about in virtually all threads here.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Question:

Is this the region of which Smetana composed that glorious suite of his?



Thoughts:

No, I never confused it with the Balkans. I am too avid a fan of military history not to understand precisely where it is. I think the conflation here isn't as much a product of geographic ignorance as some have suggested, however (as TW players the level of map literacy is pretty high), so much as this nationalist 'identity dispute" reminds us of how the Balkans have interacted among themselves for so much of the last quarter century. The thematic issues brought up are relevant to the Balkan experience even if the specific geographic concerns are unique.

[rasoforos]

Which, I guess, should explain for the varying opinion about the Republic of Moldova between Romania and Greece. I would enjoy a conversation between our posters from the region more than another tired debate about World Wars - which one can read about in virtually all threads here.

Let me assure you most Greeks do not know where Moldova is, let alone have a sentiment about it.

My sentiment (and it is mine and mine alone (not representing Greece) and not connected to 'bribery by Brandy' ) comes from the fact that I have known a few Moldovans and a few Romanians and that the feeling that 'the latter = the former' is (mostly) not shared by the latter. It is mostly Romanian wishful thinking and to make matters worse, due to population movements in the USSR it gets more complicated than that.

I believe Romania should try to fix it's situation at home before getting too involved into situations like this

[Sarmatian]

I would like to see Moldova (re)united with Romania. Indeed Moldova is distinct. As are Wallachia, Transsylvania and Romanian Moldavia. No countries are a monolith. Yet the unification of some regions make sense. Moldova as a Romanian region is as sensible as Rhodes as a Greek region or Normandy as a French one. Or, to use a more apt example, as the five former East German Lands as part of a united Germany.

After 1989, Germany re-incorporated the eastern regions. (Mittel-Deutschland for you German ultra-nationalists). In Romania, it went wrong. Logically, Moldova should've been re-incorporated with the western regions of Romania, as happened in Germany. Alas, Romania went through one of the most prolonged processes to democracy of all of the former East European dictatorships.

Moldova itself relapsed into a petty communist state. A source of instability. Of Russian agitation. (To remain silent of transnistria...)

Democracy in Europe, Romania, and Moldova are not served by the continued existence of a petty, semi-dictatorial mobster state. (For clarity's sake: by which I mean Moldova, not Romania )



To give it a Balkan dimension: the retreat of the Austrian, British, Ottoman and Russian empires from the Balkan has been and is the long term goal. In the case of Moldova ('Bessarabia'), Russia is the power to be ousted. Sentiment in Greece and Serbia leans more towards Russia - their natural ally against the interference of other imperialist powers. Which, I guess, should explain for the varying opinion about the Republic of Moldova between Romania and Greece. I would enjoy a conversation between our posters from the region more than another tired debate about World Wars - which one can read about in virtually all threads here.

I admit I'm not very familiar with situation in Moldavia, but from what I've been able to gather, election results paint a different picture than our Romanian friends want to show. Majority of population doesn't want to live in Romania. I don't have a strong opinion either way, it doesn't affect me personally in any way. It's not like Moldavia is the only semi-dictatorial mobster state in the region, it's facing strong opposition from Kosovo and Montenegro.

Again, the problem of great power interventions is evident and only serves to fuel nationalism. In the case of Albanians in Kosovo, self-determination is the way to go, in the case of Serbs in Bosnia, territorial integrity is the governing principle. The situation with Moldova complicated, Russia is directly involved. So, between double standards and Russia-NATO meddling all the time, I don't see much room for maneuver by Balkan nations. We're still forced to maneuver between hammer and anvil.

Now, the thing that Moldavia is not geographically part of the Balkans doesn't change much. Romania isn't either, but anything happening in Romania affects the entire region. Even Serbia isn't in the Balkans in its entirety. Novi Sad is divided by the Danube, it's not like I can go to the other side of the Danube to another part of city and say "these Balkan barbarian, they're not refined as us central Europeans.

[Husar]

Anyway my pro-Moldovan stance is in no way affiliated to, or influenced by, the fact that I receive some fine Moldovan brandy twice a year or so.

My pro-Moldovan stance is not affected by the fact that I know a really hot girl from Moldova (some may remember a certain topic and pictures) either.

But then I'm probably generally a geographical conservative, except when it comes to forming the world government. So basically it should not be integrated into Romania but the EU.