UK police, murderers?

[tibilicus]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8004222.stm

Well after these developments the question needs to be raised urgently about the standard of the UK police force. What makes this dastardly tale of affairs even worse is that it appears our darling home secretary Jacqiue Smith might even be conspiring with the met to cover their foul ways and the fact one of there police officers is ultimately responsible for an innocent mans death. The question needs to be raised as to what the hell these officers are doing, causing the death of those they're supposed to be protecting?

It also highlights the even bigger fact that Labour now simply need to go. This week alone has yet again underlined the embarrassment that is the Brown cabinet. The Brown cabinet? Quite fitting don't you think?

[Incongruous]

Well, the riots were disgrace in any case, it was avery bad place to have them reall wasn't it? It is more than the police whom have to take responsability for that.

However in this case, it is an evident lack of professionalism which lead to that man's death and the officer involoved should be jailed. Overall it probabaly shows a tendency for thugishness rather than murderousness in the British police force and we should not paint them all with the same blood red brush. It would, however be a good start fot the govt. if it really considered the right of people to elect their local police chief.

[rory_20_uk]

What amazes me is how a pathologist can do an autopsy and decide on heart attack, when another can stumble across free blood in the abdomen. As a medical student I'd've noticed free blood...

The UK isn't a democracy. It's a police state with window dressing.

[Fragony]

Just read yesterday that a second opinion is very often completely different from the first. I dunno about this one, being in the wrong place at the wrong time if you ask me, tragic but nothing more.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

What amazes me is how a pathologist can do an autopsy and decide on heart attack, when another can stumble across free blood in the abdomen. As a medical student I'd've noticed free blood...

The UK isn't a democracy. It's a police state with window dressing.

Doesn't this mean the pathologist will get to stand before a review board and answer as to whether she's a) been negligent or b) was participating in some level of cover-up?

I thought the UK was a limited monarchy? Aside from Magna Carta, IS there a delineation of individual rights for your citizens? (1st question is sarcastic, the 2nd is an actual question).

[InsaneApache]

Doesn't this mean the pathologist will get to stand before a review board and answer as to whether she's a) been negligent or b) was participating in some level of cover-up?

I thought the UK was a limited monarchy? Aside from Magna Carta, IS there a delineation of individual rights for your citizens? (1st question is sarcastic, the 2nd is an actual question).

So many things have happened these last 12 years. Laws that prohibit demonstrations near parliament. Laws allowing the government to store and read your e-mails and texts that came in force a week or so ago. Laws allowing over 500+ organisations to enter your house without a warrant. (It used to be only two, HM Customs and Excise and the Fire Brigade, for obvious reasons) Laws that allow local authorities to spy on you, your kith and kin. Laws that allow 28 days detention without charge. Powers to stop and search a person, giving no reason. Laws that prohibit the taking of photographs of the police. Laws made by decree. (called statutory implements) Laws passed to facilitate ID cards, which they say will not be compulsory. Fat chance. I could go on but it's late and I'm tired.

rorys right, we are fast becoming a police state.

[Pannonian]

So many things have happened these last 12 years. Laws that prohibit demonstrations near parliament. Laws allowing the government to store and read your e-mails and texts that came in force a week or so ago. Laws allowing over 500+ organisations to enter your house without a warrant. (It used to be only two, HM Customs and Excise and the Fire Brigade, for obvious reasons) Laws that allow local authorities to spy on you, your kith and kin. Laws that allow 28 days detention without charge. Powers to stop and search a person, giving no reason. Laws that prohibit the taking of photographs of the police. Laws made by decree. (called statutory implements) Laws passed to facilitate ID cards, which they say will not be compulsory. Fat chance. I could go on but it's late and I'm tired.

rorys right, we are fast becoming a police state.

Simple solution: elect a Lib Dem government. They're the only semi-popular party to stand for civil liberties. Neither a Labour nor Tory government will significantly roll back the police powers, so electing either won't do anything to address the police state.

[InsaneApache]

For what it's worth, I think that the Lib-Dems will form the next official opposition. It's become clear that the only reason New Labour exist is to gain and cling onto power. Things can only get better.

[rory_20_uk]

Simple solution: elect a Lib Dem government. They're the only semi-popular party to stand for civil liberties. Neither a Labour nor Tory government will significantly roll back the police powers, so electing either won't do anything to address the police state.

Except they're pro-Europe. In one breath defending civil liberties, the next passing increasing power to a foreign body.

[Pannonian]

Except they're pro-Europe. In one breath defending civil liberties, the next passing increasing power to a foreign body.

Doesn't the EU government have effective monitors though? The police that everyone is complaining about may be British, but they're effectively unmonitored and unchecked. It's not usually the government itself that initiates these abuses of power, but the lower levels, who have been empowered by the government, yet who are protected by the government.

For what it's worth, I think that the Lib-Dems will form the next official opposition. It's become clear that the only reason New Labour exist is to gain and cling onto power. Things can only get better.

Would you do all you can to get the Lib Dems into actual power though? If abuse of police powers is really that important an issue for you, you'd reject both the Cons and Labs as likely to further that, and go for the party that actually campaigns to roll it back. Lib Dems as the official opposition does nothing to check police abuse, as the government in power doesn't have to actually listen to anyone else (unless the majority is slim or non-existent). A Lib Dem government in power might actually do some of the things it promises though.

[rory_20_uk]

Doesn't the EU government have effective monitors though? The police that everyone is complaining about may be British, but they're effectively unmonitored and unchecked. It's not usually the government itself that initiates these abuses of power, but the lower levels, who have been empowered by the government, yet who are protected by the government.

That the accounts haven't been signed off in years doesn't fill me with confidence. It's a bigger organisation with more levels. The chances of cover ups is greater, and oversight is more unwieldy.

Would you do all you can to get the Lib Dems into actual power though? If abuse of police powers is really that important an issue for you, you'd reject both the Cons and Labs as likely to further that, and go for the party that actually campaigns to roll it back. Lib Dems as the official opposition does nothing to check police abuse, as the government in power doesn't have to actually listen to anyone else (unless the majority is slim or non-existent). A Lib Dem government in power might actually do some of the things it promises though.

My aim is to keep my head down down and emigrate as quickly as possible - jobs permitting.

[Subotan]

Who else got deja vu with Orgreave and De Menezes? The people responsible will get off scot free, as the police like to look after their own.

rorys right, we are fast becoming a police state.

Not in the conventional sense anyway. One that placates the people, and protects corporate interests, rather than massacring thousands of people. Well, British people anyway.

Except they're pro-Europe. In one breath defending civil liberties, the next passing increasing power to a foreign body.

It's only a foreign body if you don't vote in the European elections.

[tibilicus]

Except they're pro-Europe. In one breath defending civil liberties, the next passing increasing power to a foreign body.

The EU can work in principle, in fact over the next decade or so the EU nations will probably become a super power like union due to the fact the combined economy of the Euro zone already makes the US economy look tiny. Europe isn't bad, the way it's going is bad though. If there is economic wealth for all to be taken by being part of the EU I'm all for it. It's when Europe tries to legislate for all its members all the time that I start to see a problem.

My aim is to keep my head down down and emigrate as quickly as possible - jobs permitting.

Exactly the same for me. I've already looked at Canada and Australia and if things go to plan I should be out of here within 4 years.

[rory_20_uk]

It's only a foreign body if you don't vote in the European elections.

No, it's still has far more foreigners voting than people form my own country. Therefore it will always be a mainly foreign entity. Assuming this to work better than a working parliament in my own country is wishful thinking.

[Subotan]

But we have the same problem in our own election system. People voting in marginal seats can swing elections, even if the vast majority of people in your community disagree with the slim majority of people in the marginal seat.

[rory_20_uk]

Yes, but amplifying it is not the way forward.

[Subotan]

So, if we had a PR system for the European Elections, would you vote in them?

[InsaneApache]

So, if we had a PR system for the European Elections, would you vote in them?

We do.

[InsaneApache]

Would you do all you can to get the Lib Dems into actual power though? If abuse of police powers is really that important an issue for you, you'd reject both the Cons and Labs as likely to further that, and go for the party that actually campaigns to roll it back. Lib Dems as the official opposition does nothing to check police abuse, as the government in power doesn't have to actually listen to anyone else (unless the majority is slim or non-existent). A Lib Dem government in power might actually do some of the things it promises though.

I once voted SDP.

Anyway, the answer to your question is no. Although I'm liberal in the social sense, I'm financial/fiscal more in the tory mold. Having worked in the public sector for over a decade and then having run a business for over another one, I perhaps see a bigger picture.

[tibilicus]

So, if we had a PR system for the European Elections, would you vote in them?

That's what's in place at the minute. Doesn't really work to well though seeming the average voter seems to be baffled by the system. AFAIK the same system was used in the 2007 Scottish Parliament elections where voters were complaining that the ballot paper confused them..

[Pannonian]

I once voted SDP.

Anyway, the answer to your question is no. Although I'm liberal in the social sense, I'm financial/fiscal more in the tory mold. Having worked in the public sector for over a decade and then having run a business for over another one, I perhaps see a bigger picture.

So why do you celebrate the passing of this government on the grounds of abuse of police powers? It's not as if the Tories are going to take away their powers, or act as an effective watchdog. Shouldn't you be working to get the Tory party to promote civil liberties, if this issue is of importance to you, yet you're going to be voting in a Tory government? If there is no swing towards liberalism on this issue, as past history would suggest there wouldn't, would things improve under a Tory government, or would it be ok because police abuses would now be taking place under your chosen government?

[seireikhaan]

What an ungodly depressing couple o' threads we've had here...

[Furunculus]

So many things have happened these last 12 years. Laws that prohibit demonstrations near parliament. Laws allowing the government to store and read your e-mails and texts that came in force a week or so ago. Laws allowing over 500+ organisations to enter your house without a warrant. (It used to be only two, HM Customs and Excise and the Fire Brigade, for obvious reasons) Laws that allow local authorities to spy on you, your kith and kin. Laws that allow 28 days detention without charge. Powers to stop and search a person, giving no reason. Laws that prohibit the taking of photographs of the police. Laws made by decree. (called statutory implements) Laws passed to facilitate ID cards, which they say will not be compulsory. Fat chance. I could go on but it's late and I'm tired.

rorys right, we are fast becoming a police state.

i'm with you there.

almost all the people at that demo were wasters and or .

but the box ticking fascocrats otherwise known as her majesties constabulary should have had the sense and iniative to let that poor useless drunk through the line rather than repeatedly beat him until he had a heart attack.

I have much less sympathy the shouting and abusive woman who got night-sticked, she at least was a cretin rather than just a drunk in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Husar]

So the government is finally bringing law and order to Britain?

I think I said before that Britain has lost way too much freedom for my taste in the last few years.

[Furunculus]

well, these things are relative.

in a previous G20 in Italy the police shot one protester, and beat 60 others so badly that they needed intensive care.

none of them was identified, none of them was reprimanded, nor did the boss lose his job over the conduct of his staff.

we like to whinge a lot, but things are frequently far worse even in 'civilised' parts of the world.

we just expect better, some people call it arrogance. :)