I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups

[Askthepizzaguy]

Aryan Nations Recruiting again

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

COEUR D'ALENE, Idaho – The Aryan Nations has returned to northern Idaho with what it is calling a "world headquarters" and a recruitment campaign.

Coeur d'Alene resident Jerald O'Brien, who has a large swastika tattoo on his scalp, is one of the leaders of the white supremacist group and said he expects membership to grow because of the election of President Barack Obama.

He told The Spokesman-Review newspaper that the president is the "greatest recruiting tool ever."

Residents of a Coeur d'Alene subdivision found recruitment fliers on their lawns Friday and O'Brien said more fliers will be distributed. He said the group has "several handfuls" of members in the city.

The fliers show a young girl asking her father "Why did those dark men take mommy away?"

But many in the region reject the group.

"I saw Aryan Nations and put it in the trash," said Garvin Jones. "What's wrong with these people? Give me a break. I bet if you went back in their family history, not one is 100 percent white."

The newspaper reported that most people interviewed about the fliers declined to be identified for fear of retribution.

The Aryan Nations had a compound in northern Idaho until 2000, when the group lost a $6.3 million civil judgment in favor of two people who sued after being attacked by Aryan Nations' members.

The Kootenai County Task Force on Human Relations has fought the Aryan Nations for decades and is offering its services to anyone threatened or harassed by the group.

"It's bound to be a small group of people trying once again to bring hate into the community," said Tony Stewart, a spokesman for the task force. "They don't have anywhere to operate from except a post office box."

O'Brien said he regularly flies two white supremacist flags outside his home on the east side of the city.

The newspaper reported that its files show O'Brien marching in a neo-Nazi parade in Coeur d'Alene in July 2004 and joining in a skinhead rally that drew eight people outside the Spokane County courthouse in Spokane, Wash., in June 2007.

O'Brien said he and Michael Lombard have taken over the group following longtime leader Richard Butler, who died in 2004.

The fliers are signed "Aryan Nations, Church of Jesus Christ Christian." O'Brien and Lombard are listed on the group's Web site as "pastors."

At least two residents who received the fliers called the Coeur d'Alene Police Department. Sgt. Christie Wood said no investigation is planned because distribution of fliers is protected free speech.

The newspaper reported that its files show O'Brien marching in a neo-Nazi parade in Coeur d'Alene in July 2004 and joining in a skinhead rally that drew eight people outside the Spokane County courthouse in Spokane, Wash., in June 2007.

Perhaps the only bright spot of the entire article. It gives me great hope and pleasure to see the hateful little people dare not show their faces in public in any significant number. I hope that they don't have any problems with their genetic line deteriorating due to "racial purity" and inbreeding. Or, wait... no that would actually be welcome. Perhaps they can engage in that behavior so much that they turn the same color as their bedsheets, and become just as limp, wrinkled, and ratty. I know I'm going out on quite a limb here and taking such a risky moral stand (sarcasm) but I strongly dislike supremacist groups, and wish that they would all board a nice ship and set sail for another land to live in... perhaps some tropical island where they will be able to preserve their racial purity all they like while they slowly cook themselves a nice shade of brown from the warm, bright sunlight, and become the very thing they claim to oppose. And then, when their island gets a wave of malaria-filled mosquitoes one spring, they can beg some African nation for assistance, because they won't get any from me.



Tell you what; if they are allowed to express their hatred of non-whites, I can express my desire to deport them and imagine nasty things happening to them by accident. And I'll kindly retract those statements if they renounce their racial hatred.

[Rhyfelwyr]

oops double post

[Rhyfelwyr]

Don't denounce them all as hateful, some of them might actually believe in their 'cause'. Of course, if they actually believe in this cause, then either they know something we don't or they are misguided.

"Why did those dark men take mommy away?"

lol

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

The fliers show a young girl asking her father "Why did those dark men take mommy away?"

I didn't realize white supremacist groups were so big on non sequitur.

[Samurai Waki]

Hmmm... I wasn't aware that the Aryan Nation had actually stopped recruiting. The only problem I can see with their little "I have returned!" Theory, is that no-one except for those with something less than half a brain will actually join.

I seem to remember the People in Couer D'Alene/Spokane were quite happy to see them go.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Don't denounce them all as hateful, some of them might actually believe in their 'cause'. Of course, if they actually believe in this cause, then either they know something we don't or they are misguided.

"Why did those dark men take mommy away?"

lol

They can believe in their cause all they like; but their cause is stated factually as thinking non-whites are lower than them. That's *expletive deleted, expletive deleted, expletive deleted, expletive deleted, expletive deleted, expletive deleted, expletive deleted, expletive deleted, expletive deleted, expletive deleted* stupid at best, and hateful at worst

[Rhyfelwyr]

They can believe in their cause all they like; but their cause is stated factually as thinking non-whites are lower than them. That's *expletive deleted, expletive deleted, expletive deleted, expletive deleted, expletive deleted, expletive deleted, expletive deleted, expletive deleted, expletive deleted, expletive deleted* stupid at best, and hateful at worst

If they really believe in it, then its not hateful, they think they are making the world a better place. We presume they are hateful becaue we think of all humans as equal, but then maybe they don't.

Forgive me for defending such a nasty ideology, but I get a bit disgruntled when people say that those who don't agree with the standard western values of today are hateful. Quite often they are not, they just view the world differently from you.

[Askthepizzaguy]

If they really believe in it, then its not hateful, they think they are making the world a better place. We presume they are hateful becaue we think of all humans as equal, but then maybe they don't.

Forgive me for defending such a nasty ideology, but I get a bit disgruntled when people say that those who don't agree with the standard western values of today are hateful. Quite often they are not, they just view the world differently from you.

Another white supremacist group, in the last century, was led by a man who thought his struggles would make the world a better place. He even wrote a book called "My Struggle".

He was indeed a hateful man. Thinking other human beings are lesser than you may not be anger, per se, but it is hateful.

[Jolt]

Pity is, most of them aren't Aryan. Or anything close. Then again it depends on what you consider Aryans. I consider Aryans the top strata of the Indian Caste Society Brahmins, which have descended practically exclusively from Aryans, due to the nature of the Caste System, which was itself imposed by the Aryans as a means to maintain themselves on top of the Indian Society.

Most of the people recruit into the Aryan nation unfortunatly have very little to do with the concept I just explained. They are at best remotely connected by Indo-European origins, which by now has been dissolved with non-white forefathers.

A curious case is that according to a recent geneology study here in Portugal, many of the proeminent members of the Nazi and Skinheads movements in Portugal had forefathers who were Jews. Most people in Portugal somewhere around 75-80% had a Jewish forefather. Of course the Nazi movements were quick to threaten the investigators and denouce the falsehood of historical scientists. Since their innexistent methods of determining their racial background are far better and convinient.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Another white supremacist group, in the last century, was led by a man who thought his struggles would make the world a better place. He even wrote a book called "My Struggle".

He was indeed a hateful man. Thinking other human beings are lesser than you may not be anger, per se, but it is hateful.

Depends. Hitler really did hate the Jews, he practically talked himself into it (and once again we have talked ourselves into talking about him, he might have failed to take Europe but he's taking over the Backroom!). But then, maybe some of these white supremacists simply believe black people are inferior and don't deserve the same rights or whatever. Are you hateful because you think animals are lesser beings?

[Askthepizzaguy]

Depends. Hitler really did hate the Jews, he practically talked himself into it (and once again we have talked ourselves into talking about him, he might have failed to take Europe but he's taking over the Backroom!). But then, maybe some of these white supremacists simply believe black people are inferior and don't deserve the same rights or whatever. Are you hateful because you think animals are lesser beings?

However, this is a thread about White Supremacy and racial hate; Hitler is actually relevant here.

I don't treat animals as lesser beings, and I resent the comparison between racial groups and animals. I don't give a flying cuttlefish what they believe or the silly reasons behind their racial hatred or ignorance; whichever you prefer to call it. I don't care what their motives are. I don't care if their entire family was gang-raped by a member of a different race; thinking other human beings are lesser than you are, less deserving of rights and life and liberty, unequal to you, is the mentality which brought about every single racial war.

It's a backwards and intolerant view which is not welcome. The difference between them and me? I don't try to take away their freedom of speech, I don't advocate "sending them back to Ireland", I don't threaten them or their families, I don't consider them sub-human, and I don't wish to eradicate them, even though in all honesty, if we could round up all the hate groups, put them inside a giant sports arena, and give them all weapons, we could witness how futile and destructive hate is, and how it has no place in civilized society.

After all, they have the option not to hate, not to kill. It's their choice.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Godwin invocation within 10 posts -- probably inevitable with the topic.

[Samurai Waki]

After all, they have the option not to hate, not to kill. It's their choice.

And many of them do learn after awhile, how futile and meaningless that struggle is. Especially ones who at one point in their lives were actively a part in Racial Supremacy Groups. Most often these groups round up young, confused, and unworldly teenagers and try to indoctrinate them. I'm not sure what the average drop out rate per group is, but I bet it's a lot higher than they'd ever be willing to admit.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Godwin invocation within 10 posts -- probably inevitable with the topic.

Wait!

Is there no discussion where Hitler is actually relevant? I mean, it is a white supremacist topic. It's not Godwin if Hitler is actually a valid and relevant thing to be discussed here. The only thing MORE relevant would be a thread about the Nazis.

Am I misunderstanding Godwin?

The rule does not make any statement about whether any particular reference or comparison to Adolf Hitler or the Nazis might be appropriate, but only asserts that one arising is increasingly probable. It is precisely because such a comparison or reference may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued,[4] that overuse of Nazi and Hitler comparisons should be avoided, because it robs the valid comparisons of their impact

Even Godwin agrees that there are valid comparisons to be made. The point is that people should avoid using such references when they DON'T apply, not to discourage proper usage.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I don't advocate "sending them back to Ireland"

Was that aimed at me? If it was, then I may as well join the Catholics on the boat trip, since one side of my family is descended from Ulster Protestants.

ATPG I have no sympathy with racist ideology, but I refuse to denouce all racists as hateful. It might be the popular, knee-jerk reaction to take, but it doesn't really get to the root of the problem does it? If we look at Nazi Germany and just say the Holocaust happened because by an incredible coincidence a large part of a nation happened to be hateful, then we would not learn much to prevent such events happening again, would we?

[Askthepizzaguy]

Was that aimed at me? If it was, then I may as well join the Catholics on the boat trip, since one side of my family is descended from Ulster Protestants.

No, actually; it was referring to the gentleman in my article, "Jerald O'Brien".

O'Brien is an Irish name, I believe.

[Jolt]

A curious case is that according to a recent geneology study here in Portugal, many of the proeminent members of the Nazi and Skinheads movements in Portugal had forefathers who were Jews. Most people in Portugal somewhere around 75-80% had a Jewish forefather. Of course the Nazi movements were quick to threaten the investigators and denouce the falsehood of historical scientists. Since their innexistent methods of determining their racial background are far better and convinient.

Not funny? *sobs*

[Askthepizzaguy]

ATPG I have no sympathy with racist ideology, but I refuse to denouce all racists as hateful. It might be the popular, knee-jerk reaction to take, but it doesn't really get to the root of the problem does it? If we look at Nazi Germany and just say the Holocaust happened because by an incredible coincidence a large part of a nation happened to be hateful, then we would not learn much to prevent such events happening again, would we?

It's not a knee-jerk reaction. Their pamphlets were hateful!

"Why did those dark men take mommy away?"

That is a pamphlet designed to spread fear and hate. PREVENTING such hatred involves speaking out against it. I never said we should exterminate them. You may be trying to argue against hatred, but what you're doing is defending it, and then calling those who oppose hatred hateful, even though they don't sink down to their level.

It is "misguided" as you might call it, to do so. I feel that your defense of these hate-groups could be a knee-jerk reaction of your own. I don't see your reasoning behind it. But I'm attempting to listen.

[Rhyfelwyr]

It's not a knee-jerk reaction. Their pamphlets were hateful!

"Why did those dark men take mommy away?"

That is a pamphlet designed to spread fear and hate. PREVENTING such hatred involves speaking out against it. I never said we should exterminate them. You may be trying to argue against hatred, but what you're doing is defending it, and then calling those who oppose hatred hateful, even though they don't sink down to their level.

It is "misguided" as you might call it, to do so. I feel that your defense of these hate-groups could be a knee-jerk reaction of your own. I don't see your reasoning behind it. But I'm attempting to listen.

I'm just saying if they really believe black men are out to get the nice little whites then that's not really any more different from how you would hate Stalin for mass-murdering everyone he didn't like. Presuming you do disapprove of the likes of Stalin, would you hate him with the same hatred Hitler had for the Jews? Or would it not be more of a strong moral disapproval?

[Askthepizzaguy]

I'm just saying if they really believe black men are out to get the nice little whites

Then they are correct. Some of them are. And there are a lot more whites out to get them, according to the sheer amounts of white-on-white crime. It's ignorant to fear only one group.

then that's not really any more different from how you would hate Stalin for mass-murdering everyone he didn't like

Yes it is. Opposing a mass murderer is different from hating an entire racial group. There is zero comparison to be made between them.

Presuming you do disapprove of the likes of Stalin

Yes.

would you hate him with the same hatred Hitler had for the Jews? Or would it not be more of a strong moral disapproval?

It's a meaningless hypothetical. Stalin is dead, and a mass murderer who is guilty of crimes against humanity is, and always was, different from a "race" of people. I strongly and morally disapprove of what he did. And I wouldn't even characterize my dislike of racists as hatred; only disappointment and a wish that they would relent and become less ignorant.

If I hated them, as they hate minorities, I'd be calling for much worse than speaking out against them. There is no comparison between what I feel towards racists and what racists feel and do towards those they oppose. I'm dismayed by what you're saying, and wonder what drives you to defend supremacist groups from legitimate concerns that rational people have against their divisive and hateful behavior.

I don't think you're putting forth a reasoned argument, and I don't believe there is a moral reason to defend racists at all from being correctly labeled as hateful.

[Rhyfelwyr]

It's a meaningless hypothetical. Stalin is dead, and a mass murderer who is guilty of crimes against humanity is, and always was, different from a "race" of people. I strongly and morally disapprove of what he did. And I wouldn't even characterize my dislike of racists as hatred; only disappointment and a wish that they would relent and become less ignorant.

If I hated them, as they hate minorities, I'd be calling for much worse than speaking out against them. There is no comparison between what I feel towards racists and what racists feel and do towards those they oppose. I'm dismayed by what you're saying, and wonder what drives you to defend supremacist groups from legitimate concerns that rational people have against their divisive and hateful behavior.

But that's my point. We disapprove of Stalin, white supremacists dissaprove of black people. We don't hate anyone, the white supremacists don't (necessarily) hate anyone. So what is the difference? Stalin is one guy, blacks are, in the minds of the white supremacists, a race. In the minds of these people, black folk have different genes or whatever which make them nasty or different from white people. Just like Stalin's genes made him what he was. Are the white supremacists right to apply such characteristics on the 'racial' level - I don't think so, but they do. They need not hate anyone because of it more than we hate nasty individuals.

[Askthepizzaguy]

But that's my point. We disapprove of Stalin, white supremacists dissaprove of black people. We don't hate anyone, the white supremacists don't (necessarily) hate anyone. So what is the difference? Stalin is one guy, blacks are, in the minds of the white supremacists, a race. In the minds of these people, black folk have different genes or whatever which make them nasty or different from white people. Just like Stalin's genes made him what he was. Are the white supremacists right to apply such characteristics on the 'racial' level - I don't think so, but they do. They need not hate anyone because of it more than we hate nasty individuals.

You can't "disapprove" of someone's existence. You can't disapprove of people. You can disapprove of their actions.

To "disapprove" of a race of people is to not approve of their existing on this planet. That's hateful.

"In the minds of these people, black folk have different genes or whatever which make them nasty or different from white people"

How is that not hatred, and instead, moral objection? There's nothing moral about it. It's hate by the definition of hate. If you don't like the word hate, that's the proper word for it, and it's not really something you can effectively argue against.

"Just like Stalin's genes made him what he was"

That's your opinion, not backed up by any evidence, and forgive me... it's a rather ridiculous thing to suggest that people are slaves to their genes. My parents were alcoholic, that doesn't make me so. I don't drink at all. Blaming people's behavior on their genes absolves people of crimes they chose to commit.

"Are the white supremacists right to apply such characteristics on the 'racial' level - I don't think so, but they do. They need not hate anyone because of it more than we hate nasty individuals"

Ask them yourself; they will tell you they hate people. Read their pamphlets; they tell you how wicked and immoral black people are, and that it is ok to hate them. Morally correct to hate them. But tt's a fact; hatred is hatred, and you can't pretend it doesn't exist when they themselves say they hate black people, and encourage fear of an entire race. You have nothing reasonable here to argue, and you've failed to make a legitimate point, in my opinion.

It's absurd to argue in defense of people who hate entire races of people, without concern about the guilt or innocence of an individual.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Look we are all what the genes, chemicals etc in our brains and bodies make us, what difference does it make if its on the individual or 'racial' level? And if we are not 'slaves to our genes' then by what other means do we operate? If you make a decision, that's just some electric signals travelling round your brain, you can't choose to overrule them, they make you what you are. That, of course, in my opinion, not a fact.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Look we are all what the genes, chemicals etc in our brains and bodies make us, what difference does it make if its on the individual or 'racial' level? And if we are not 'slaves to our genes' then by what other means do we operate? If you make a decision, that's just some electric signals travelling round your brain, you can't choose to overrule them, they make you what you are. That, of course, in my opinion, not a fact.

Identical twins have the same genes. One may become a mass murderer, the other may not.

Blaming everything on genetics is precisely the error racists make, and I encourage you not to believe that fallacy.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Identical twins have the same genes. One may become a mass murderer, the other may not.

Blaming everything on genetics is precisely the error racists make, and I encourage you not to believe that fallacy.

If one is taken out the womb before the other, suddenly you have the butterfly effect and there you go one gets the Nobel Peace Prize and the other goes on a killing spree. Biology and environment/upbringing are the reasons behind everything we do. Unless of course you believe in some sort of soul, but then there's no more evidence for that than there is for the big man in the sky.

[Beefy187]

There were those days when we Japanese bragged about being allowed to be "Special Whites" for beating Russia.

And that was the day when we lost Asian pride

[Askthepizzaguy]

If one is taken out the womb before the other, suddenly you have the butterfly effect and there you go one gets the Nobel Peace Prize and the other goes on a killing spree. Biology and environment/upbringing are the reasons behind everything we do. Unless of course you believe in some sort of soul, but then there's no more evidence for that than there is for the big man in the sky.

I seem to recall someone once saying something about an argument being built upon sand; and the other one said that sand is better than nothing at all... In this case, your argument is once again built upon no evidence, and no reasoning that I can see. A vast amount of evidence, research, and reasoning has gone into the question of blaming genes for our behavior. But the fact is while genes may help form the brain, so does the environment, and unless the brain is absolutely dead, people have control over their actions, and can freely choose.

Even a certain God people believe in allows for free will. So does science. You're curiously arguing against it, even though you yourself have said that faith is a choice.

Your argument is undermined by your own argument, and as such, there is no better rebuttal than your own words. If you'll excuse me, I'd like to take a break from this one for a little while, because (a) we won't make any progress (b) I think you've effectively defeated yourself and (c) I do find the defense of racists to be a little upsetting, and as such, I take my leave and will ponder things quietly without saying things that might offend people.

There were those days when we Japanese bragged about being allowed to be "Special Whites" for beating Russia. And that was the day when we lost Asian pride

You are an individual to me, Beefy; the crimes of others, in the past, are not yours to feel ashamed of. Whites in the past enslaved and conquered, and I feel no shame because I've done nothing wrong. Germans have nothing to be ashamed of, nor Italians, nor blacks or hispanics or persians or arabs... Blaming a race or a nation for the crimes of individuals is again, based on poor reasoning and fallacious thinking.

You have much to be proud of, Beefy... you're funny and smart and friendly, and people like you gawrsh darn it! Asian pride is perhaps nothing to miss; Asians are a vast group of diverse people, and people should be proud of their own accomplishments. I've never been a fan of racial pride. But at the same time, you, Japan, Asians.... have nothing to be collectively ashamed of either. I don't believe in collective pride, nor do I believe in collective shame. A person is judged on their own merits as an individual.

It's one of the reasons I oppose racists so much; they assign group pride and group shame. There's no room for that in my mind or in my heart.

[Jolt]

Japanese should be ashamed to crush all the work good honest Portuguese did to evangelize Japan! :)

[Crazed Rabbit]

I'm sorry, but posting a thread making fun of these idiots is not really laughing in their face.

Take Chris Hitchens, for example, and his tangle with some thugs in Beirut. He effectively did laugh in the face of some neo-nazis there, and got attacked.

Anyway, these folks are like a few pieces of grass in a field. They are insignificant, meaningless.

CR

[Askthepizzaguy]

I'm sorry, but posting a thread making fun of these idiots is not really laughing in their face.

Take Chris Hitchens, for example, and his tangle with some thugs in Beirut. He effectively did laugh in the face of some neo-nazis there, and got attacked.

Anyway, these folks are like a few pieces of grass in a field. They are insignificant, meaningless.

CR

Every racist group capable of harming others begins with one person, then a small group. None of them are insignificant... they are all a threat to human progress.