The Ultimate Battle Turning Unit

[Macilrille]

I personally find that I rarely rout large portions of the enemy army. Probably cause I like to play Roman and kill Hellenes, whose Phalanxes rarely break and rout en masse.

So, usually I get some cavalry behind them (yes I play on huge), to kill off archers and get ready to charge backs while my own missile troops (I just love Accensii and Cretan Archers) take their toll on vulnerable enemies and one or two of the Hellenic archers firing flaming arrows. Meanwhile I use part of my infantry to chuck pilae at them and go in and hold them till I can concentrate on those phalanxes, meanwhile the rest of my infantry flanks the phalangites and makes them walk all over, breaking their line into isolated phalanx. Then I create local quantitative superiority and concentrate on the phalanxes one by one with infantry and Cav. Some will rout, others not, but even repeated massed cavalry charges at their backs rarely makes a line of phalangites break. So I rout/kill them one or two at a time by creating local superiority, using my superior mobility and all the while cursing these AS Graeculi wannabees, and being sorely tempted to Blitz AS instead of fighting 1-3 phalanx battles every turn.

Hence I rarely have a battle-turning unit. It is a combination of slaughter, flaming arrows and cavalry/infantry charges that routs or kills those damn Phalangites.

The Sweboz owns large parts of northern Europe and are killing off all Gauls, so soon I shall be fighting them, perhaps they rout easier.

[satalexton]

Say Maion, I think this barbaroi has never seen a flurry of dory/sarissae/xyston crushing his own kin. Let's be kind and give him a bird's eye view of it!

*impales Macilrille by the groin and lifts him into the sky*

See? it's simple, Sarissae in the middle, poliskrate on the flanks, and the Hetairoi going ALL HEIL MAKEDONIA at the barbaroi's sorry buttocks.

TRUTH AND HOPE TO FATHERLAND!!! ALL HEIL MAKEDONIA!!!

[Macilrille]

Say Maion, I think this barbaroi has never seen a flurry of dory/sarissae/xyston crushing his own kin. Let's be kind and give him a bird's eye view of it!

*impales Macilrille by the groin and lifts him into the sky*

See? it's simple, Sarissae in the middle, poliskrate on the flanks, and the Hetairoi going ALL HEIL MAKEDONIA at the barbaroi's sorry buttocks.

TRUTH AND HOPE TO FATHERLAND!!! ALL HEIL MAKEDONIA!!!

I think I have already commented on this sort of spam somewhere else.

It would instead be interesting to know how you Hellene Lovers fight the various barbarians.

[Jebivjetar]

1) when playing with Carthage

I usually hold my line with mix of light infantry, kill equites consulares with my superior calvary, and then hit romans from the back and rear with elephants and/or other calvary. Iberi Caetrati are the best for pursuing routing pedites extraordinari and their cowardly comrades. Rarely some romans actually escape from me, and, if some of them escape, they go to their barbaropolis, which i sack in next turn

2) when playing with KH/Makedonia/Epeiros

I just let romans to taste my sarissas in their mouth. Then i tell them a joke, and they really do lough bloody.

[Zett]

It would instead be interesting to know how you Hellene Lovers fight the various barbarians.

As far as I know there is only one barbarian faction in EB, but perhaps you meant Barbarian Ivasion, there you have two barbarian factions of course.
Sorry couldn't resist

About Elephants. I used them sometimes as Epeiros, but they are to expensive and need too much baby-sitting in my opinion. So I stick to cavalery, Prodromoi are a fine unit. If I play as KH, I use Hippeis Xystophoroi (how I already posted).
About the Elephantes Kataphraktoi, I only used them once in my Baktrian Campaign, they where good, but expensive and slow. The main problem I have with elephants is their limited AoR.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

[satalexton]

As far as I know there is only one barbarian faction in EB, but perhaps you meant Barbarian Ivasion, there you have two barbarian factions of course.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

WELL SAID! =D

Here, have Sōkrátēs Notice how you are gaining in ownership of civillized balloons =]

[Andronikos]

It would instead be interesting to know how you Hellene Lovers fight the various barbarians.

I believe this is no problem. If you can protect your flanks, hellenic army can defeat any army based on non-phalanx infantry (without ahistorical number of elites).
But leading barbarians against helenes is a royal pain in ass. It requires a lot of micromanage, you have to break enemy formation, isolate and outnumber enemy phalanxes, here scary heavy infantry with powerful weapons such as longswords comes handy. You have to attract the phalanx so that your unit can approach from back without fear that the phalanx turns. Elite phalangites fight to the last man. And the unit which is on the sharp end of sarissa tends to rout. I remember fighting Romans who spammed makedonian-phalanx-triarii back in 0.8 as Celts. When Karthadastim and Epeiros become your enemies only then the party begins.

[mosedavid]

I think if one is relying on one battle winning unit then one's tactics are bad. Against the AI tactics win battles not individual units. Every unit has a weakness and a work around. Paper scissors stone.

[antisocialmunky]

Depending on the case its beating a rock with a 50% bigger rock.

[mosedavid]

Depending on the case its beating a rock with a 50% bigger rock.

i recomend you read the Tao te Ching and Art of war if you havent already. Thats not to be patronising by the way. There is always a way to win the AI with whatever you've got. Against human opponents online it may be that you need powerful units.

Take hannibal at Canne, he didnt have any battle winning troops: he had a few pikemen, a lot of spanish medium troops and cavalry better than his opponent. He won the battle by his use of tactics over his adversary. Another general would have used the army another way and would have surley lost the battle. The romans had that 50% bigger rock and still lost.

[Mediterraneo]

Depending on the case its beating a rock with a 50% bigger rock.

I cite this from antisocialmunky to reply to Maion. (and to interrupt an interesting debate to speak of something else, but there was an explicit question to do so)

Maion, I'm sorry if my previous post was unclear and frustrated you, i wanted to say is that i feel the levies to be my best choice to win battles, in a decisive way.
Yes, i played a bit of this game, i'm a long standing lurker. My biggest limit is that I only have single player experience.

What i implied in my previous post is that i feel that "mass levies" (or just cost effective relatively basic units) are the best battle winner i found in my campaigns, with the scope of winning battles.
I feel that i have the best hope to win if i field large armies, occupying a lot of room and being in the conditions to have a simpler way around the enemy while i give him an added "passive" resistance to his movement with the sheer lenght of my lines.

Sure, when i try to outmatch a spartan general (or even some cartaginean spears sometimes) with two or three units of hoplitai haploi i get some frustrating result.
Or when i see the charge of a ton (no, various hundreds of tons) of cataphracts i shake in fear but.... I feel that having three units of basic phalanx stops them better than having a single outnumbered cataphract unit.

So, i feel that the mass are my winning choice. Gaining, to me, more mass routes than anything, because they surround the heavy cavalry more often than the heavy cavalry can get a clear charge, in plain, without a forest in the middle, against their unguarded rear while they are busy doing something else.

To Nachtmeister: to field elites in the campaign game, you have to build buildings for them. So the levies get there first, to me. To the casualty problem: fighting when you outnumber the enemy helps limiting casualties, and using big units (with sarissas, better) helps absorbing casualties. And being at that, 360 levies, in campaign terms, do absorb 50 casualties better than 50 cataphracts.

Ok, that last was pretestuos.
Have a nice game tomorrow!

[Maion Maroneios]

even though I voted cataphracts, I must point out that I have often used the elephants. the only problem with them IMHO is their vulnerability to javelins and certan types of archers, however as you said yourself, that's normally not a problem. but the reason I did not vote for them for sure is simply one word: cost. think about it; why have a single elephant unit, when 3 or 4 cataphracts/hetairoi can be made in their place? and far more useful and less javelin easy.

I believe this thread isn't about the cost-effectiveness of units, but their actual ability to cause mass routs and turn the tide during battle. Regardless of cost, whatever anyone says, elephants are just the best. NO other unit can cause, after being properly used of course, as much amok as elephants do.

As for your post satalexton, I'm sorry I can't say anything. I promised the Nice Fairy I'll be a good boy and behave.

Maion

[Macilrille]

I believe this thread isn't about the cost-effectiveness of units, but their actual ability to cause mass routs and turn the tide during battle. Regardless of cost, whatever anyone says, elephants are just the best. NO other unit can cause, after being properly used of course, as much amok as elephants do.

As for your post satalexton, I'm sorry I can't say anything. I promised the Nice Fairy I'll be a good boy and behave.

Maion

LOL, thanks ;-)

But I would like to know how to best use Hellene armies, they are far too immobile for my taste. How do you Hellene Lovers most effectively employ the grinding force of the Phalanx? Just pin the enemy (literally) and flank them with cavalry? What about your skirmishers? Archers?

[Jebivjetar]

This is how i lead battles with Hellenic armies:

1) First line: phalanx: engage the enemy and pin them, or let the enemy to engage phalanx. In most cases (especially when fighting romans), enemy is having some reserves in the back.

2) For this enemy reserves im using my slingers: their task is to shoot at them while they go right-left and trying to find place to engage my phalanx. Sometimes, i send some non phalanx spearmen (levy hoplites, heavy spearman) to engage enemy reserves. At this time my calvary walks around and eventually fight generals/ other enemy calvary.

3) i use heavy peltasts to throw their javelins in the back of enemies who engaged my phalanx. When they run aut of ammo, i attack with them on points where enemy seem to break first. I use my calvary on points where my phalanx is about to loose. With addition of some extra light infantry i attack in front of engaged enemy.

4) Light calvary/missle calvary i use to pursue routing enemies.

5) sometimes its good to have one or two phalanx units in the back of main phalanx: because you never know if some enemy unit succeed to find its path to back of main phalanx.

[Zett]

But I would like to know how to best use Hellene armies, they are far too immobile for my taste. How do you Hellene Lovers most effectively employ the grinding force of the Phalanx? Just pin the enemy (literally) and flank them with cavalry? What about your skirmishers? Archers?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

As KH I usually deploy my troops like this or something similar. If the enemy come closer I order my Spendonetai behind my Phalanx (if I'm on higher ground and do not hit my own troops, I continue fiering from this position). My Hippies Xystophoroi (or any other cavalry) normally waits at the flanks or is hidden in a small forest nearby and waits until the biggest part of the enemy is fighting with my Phalangitai and charges then (battle turning moment). Toxotai are ordered to shoot at enemies with no armor, like other skirmisher and cavalry (if they have a higher ground bonus).

Never attack with an Phalanx army
NEVER attack if you fight a bridgebattle (only if you have a second crossing, but even then...)
NEVER attack an enemy Phalanx army if they have higher ground

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

[Ibrahim]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

yes, let your enemy smash your left flank

[Zett]

yes, let your enemy smash your left flank

Normally two units of Thorakitai are more then enough. Even if they sent their general in, cause at this point my cavalery is already behind him.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

[Elcmar]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I'd tend to use a similar formation for most of my battles as AS or Makedonia, except with either peltastai or other sword+javelin infantry behind the thorakitai, and usually deploy the cavalry so it can support either side of the line if needed.

[Cyclops]

Its all about the Elephants. I just finished Baktria 1.2 and the Royal Army with Kata-Phants and various small elite inf ran around Iran annihilating endless grey stacks. Sooooo satisfying. Of course they never even saw a HA, I sent a Merc General with Merc Alan Nobles to play with the Saka.

They really do turn a battle in a matter of seconds, and no other unit comes close for me. I have a dreadful inablity to utilise chariots, perhaps they are in the same class but I will never know.

Of course I see the beauty of Kataphractoi, I am a big fan of Armenia (its my current campaign) and there's a great thrill when my line begins to waver, the Caucasian spearmen I left in guard mode are crumbling (what was I thinking? should've ponied up for some Georgians) and then the horns ring out and the FL and FH smash in from the flanks, 180+ lances ploughing a bloody swathe across the battlefield. If the elephants are a volcano, then the Kataphracts are the flood.

Sometimes I just line up 4 FM's and go straight into the enemy line for the pure joy of it. I don't suicide on pikes or anything like that, my Arkah is bloodthirsty but not reckless. The massive blow really simplifies otherwise humdrum mopping up battles.

The stuff about pila, or frightening the enemy with your willy (not to mention slings and arrows!), well its no so much about being "battle turning" as part of a tactical build-up. I like the Lusotannan and german battles, with ambush, skirmish, strike and retreat, then a hard fight. Everyone plays their part, no-one really dominates. I play the Gauls a bit more up-front, but the presence of Gesaetae accelerates battle trends rather than transforms them.

If you have two balanced well-matched full stack armies facing one another and one of them has one unit arriving as a reinforcement, which unit would make the most difference? If you were fighting that battle, what enemy arrival would make you change your posture, your formation, your battle plans, your attitude to life, your underwear? I vote Elephantoi Kataphraktoi above all others.

[Zett]

If you have two balanced well-matched full stack armies facing one another and one of them has one unit arriving as a reinforcement, which unit would make the most difference? If you were fighting that battle, what enemy arrival would make you change your posture, your formation, your battle plans, your attitude to life, your underwear? I vote Elephantoi Kataphraktoi above all others.

"Ok, they have Elephnatoi, let's change our pants!"

Yes, Elephantoi Kataphraktoi are fearsome, but a well placed unit of Petastai is also "fearsome". The only faction that uses Elephantoi from time to time is Karthadastim. Never saw the AI using Elepantes Kataphraktoi in a campaign.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

[Maion Maroneios]

LOL, thanks ;-)

But I would like to know how to best use Hellene armies, they are far too immobile for my taste. How do you Hellene Lovers most effectively employ the grinding force of the Phalanx? Just pin the enemy (literally) and flank them with cavalry? What about your skirmishers? Archers?

Hmmm, I believe this requires a seperate thread. There are tons of tricks and aces a Hellenistic Strategos can deploy, depending on the enemy each time he has to face. I'd be more than happy to share my experience with you, or anyone else for that matter

Maion