accurate Romani stack?

[Mulceber]

I remember a while ago someone posted a thread where they discussed how to make the most historically accurate Romani Army. I've tried searching for it, but no luck. Can anyone provide a link? -M

[Dutchhoplite]

This one maybe => https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=101787

[Mulceber]

THANK YOU! That was exactly the thread I was looking for! -M

[Rilder]

Yeah QS's guide is quite nice, I for th most part use his army compositions in my Romani campaign, they definatly aren't Invincible legions of doom which is nice, Even lost a few battles against the Gauls :p

[Mulceber]

Yeah, I'm thinking that when EBII comes out, I'll probably do an AAR and use his roster with a few changes:

1. during the Polybian reforms, I'll probably have the legions in a state of flux: at the beginning, they'll match his roster, but as I progress through the Polybian era, the Hastati and Triarii will slowly disappear in favor of Principes, and the allies will start to be trained like the Romans are, so there will be more Roman units and fewer allied units. This would represent the Roman units evolving up to the point of the Marian reforms (since the Marian reforms were actually a gradual change, with Marius' actual reforms only being the elimination of property qualifications).

2. When I get to the Marian reforms I'll probably be much more heavy on cohortes reformatae and less so on auxilia, scorpiones and 1st cohorts. -M

[Maion Maroneios]

20xLeves OK you didn't see this. Anyway, I believe you would have found an infinity amount of threads dedicated to Romaioi tactics, formations and historical army compositions. Just have to bring yourself to search the fora.

Maion

[Mulceber]

As I said in the first post, I did. For some reason I didn't find the results I was looking for. What's he harm in asking for help? -M

[satalexton]

nothing, the more accurate composition of a romaioi army he creates, the more rightous the victory it would be for all Hellas.

Of course, we won't say no to glorious victories if he chooses to spam 20 pedites extraordinarii at us, oh wait. Those aren't even true Romaioi!

Very legit question asked, just keep on infighting amongst yourselves. Don't disturb us Hellenes until we've cleaned out the black sheep amongst us. Barbaroi are not allowed to disturb us while we're not looking....

[Mulceber]

Barbaroi are not allowed to disturb us while we're not looking....

I don't know, Philip did just that and it led to the creation of the second largest Empire in history. -M

[Mulceber]

Also, one more question - what do you think the most accurate game size would be - I mean, the size of the units? Should it be small, medium, large or huge? I've been playing on large from the beginning (82 principes per unit, 102 marian legionaries), but would it be more accurate to up the size to huge? -M

[Watchman]

I prefer Huge, personally. It makes the units take up appropriately large amounts of space on the field and makes maneuvering them somewhat cumbersome, as it should be.

...plus they look more impressive on that size.

[V.T. Marvin]

What I am doing in mz ongoing Roman campaign (currently cca 220 BC) is to roleplay my stacks as "legions" composed of two "alae".

The first "ala" is the Roman core, which is uniform for all my legions and is composed of:
1 velites
2 hastati
2 principes
1 triarii
+ there is the legion commander, FM of at least Questor rank and a second FM (mostly commands, rarely engages in actual combat), usualy a military tribune to gain some military experience, to serve as regular cavalry and to command the "allied ala" in minor battles.

The "second ala" represents the Roman alies and is regionaly based. For instance:
The "First Legion" (Legio I Italica) is complemented by Italian socii:
1 Aichmetai Leukanoi
2 Pezoi Brettioi
2 Hastati Samnitici
1 Equites Campanici

There is a force raised and maintained by allied greek poleis of Magna Grecia (Type IV gov in Taras and Rhegion) which gives another "allied ala" to complement legions operating in the vicinity of Southern Italy:
1 Toxotai
2 Hoplitai
2 Peltastai
1 Hippeis Tarentinoi

Or there is a force raised and maintained by allied Celtic communities of Liguria (Type IV gov in Segesta) to complement legions guarding the Northern Italy:
2 Sotaroas (Celtic archers)
3 Gaemilae Liguriae
1 Ligurie Epos (Ligurian light cavalry)

Other regional "alae" are composed along similar lines in Emporiaon, Massilia, Syracusae, Sardinia, Northern Dalmatia, etc. In times of peac they form garrison in the provincial capital and represent the army which the idependent allies raise for their protection and are commanded by their own king (cient ruler). In emergency, "roman ala" is sent to the province, merge with this "allied ala" to form a full-strenth legion under Roman commander and set out on campaign.

In total the legion is never more than 14 units (2 FMs, 6 Roman, 6 allied) which makes the battles more interesting and even allow the retarded AI to inflict occasional setbacks on me.

According to my house rule I have Type I gov installed in Italia proper only (Rome, Capua, Arpi, Arretioum, Ariminum), Type III in Messana and on Corsica and Sardinia. There provinces pay upkeek of the Roman core units of my legions and of my navy. The rest of my provinces are all Type IV and I make sure that the total upkeep of regional units payed by each of those provinces never exceeds the combined tax and trade income of that particular province.

I think that this allows for quite a historical gameplay, giving the allies some degree of independence as well as for fun and enjoyment, because the varibality thus achieved prevents the battles from becoming repetitive and boring.

I am very gratefull to EB that it is so well designed for role-playing. The possibilities are countless!!!

P.S.- Another house rule of mine is to auto-calc all battles where the AI attacks my besieged cities, because the AI sucks so much in sieges that it is almost unfair. This way it at least have some chance.

[seienchin]

Also, one more question - what do you think the most accurate game size would be - I mean, the size of the units? Should it be small, medium, large or huge? I've been playing on large from the beginning (82 principes per unit, 102 marian legionaries), but would it be more accurate to up the size to huge? -M

As a romani I choose large.
You can just calculate the numbers of men times 10 and you have a complete Legion by 5 units of Marian legionaries. Then I just take 5 more units of auxilary and I have one historical roman unit.
And I ca neven put 2 Roman legions in one Army plus General and one additional unit.
On huge my head starts to ache if I have to multiply all the numbers by 5...

[Atilius]

A comment on the general subject of historically accurate Roman armies:

There is very little evidence that significant numbers of infantrymen raised in Magna Graecia ever served with Roman armies during the pre-Marian period. The troops sent to the Romans by Hieron II in 216 BC - Cretan archers, slingers, and light infantry (Poly. 3.75, Livy 22.37) - were mostly, if not entirely, mercenaries. In contrast, there are many references to greek cities supplying ships and crews to the Roman navy (e.g. Poly. 1.20, Livy 26.39, 35.16, 36.42, 42.48). The references in Livy imply that this was a specific treaty obligation for Rhegium, Velia, Paestum, Neapolis, Taras, and Locri. Under normal circumstances, this probably fulfilled their treaty commitments to Rome.

[Mulceber]

hmm...in that case I'll avoid recruiting/retraining from Magna Graecia, except in emergencies. What qualifies as Magna Graecia though? I mean, obviously Rhegion and Taras, but what about Capua and Arpi?

hmm...still trying to decide between large and huge. Maybe I'll just stick with large. -M

[Atilius]

hmm...in that case I'll avoid recruiting/retraining from Magna Graecia, except in emergencies.

Yeah, recruiting anything you can get in an emergency is OK. We have mentions of emergency recruitment in Sicily on a couple of occasions. In one case the troops were sent to Spain (Livy 35.2), in the other they were dismissed as soon as it was clear that Antiochos was not about to invade (Livy 35.23).

What qualifies as Magna Graecia though? I mean, obviously Rhegion and Taras, but what about Capua and Arpi?

The EB settlements representing Magna Graecia are Rhegion, Taras, Messana, and Syrakousai.

I just realized that my last post was a bit misleading: I meant to say greek infantrymen. We have a specific reference to a Lucanian unit serving with the Roman army in 294 BC (Livy 10.33) and others at later times. Lucania is in EB's Brettia, so there's no reason not to recruit Lucanian and Bruttian units there. In Vanilla EB, these can be the normal Roman infantry units, or you could mod in recruitment of the Lucanian, Bruttian, and Samnite units. Recruiting cavalry in Rhegion and Taras is fine too.

[Mulceber]

Ok, thanks for the info. -M

[sgsandor]

In my legions, I edited the number of men to the following (on huge settings)
for camillain
2 Triarii 400 total
2 Pricipes 400
2 Hastati 400
1 Roaraii 240
1 Leves 240
1 Slingers 120
1 General (over 30)
1 Junior (25 and under)

Polybian is
2 Triarii 320
3 Pricipes 600 total
3 Hastati 600
2 Velites 480
1 slingers 120

The number of Triarii is roughly half the number of Principes or Hastati. The number of Velites plus slingers = Principes or Hastati. Never anymore Roman troops, the rest are mercenaries especially for my campaigns in Spain Greece and Asia Minor. I do not know if this is historically accurate (probably not) but it does work well with RTW engine limitations. I have never played with Marian Legions but I think Quintus S's guide is pretty well thought out and would use it also