Should BtSH call it quits?

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

never mind Azanoth seems to know what he is talking about!


also bean, I can see one big problem about having each tribe be a different faction. during inter tribal fighting we are going to be fighting against the AI. And frankly, we could all tool the AI in our sleep. we are going to see whoever takes their turn first have a huge advantage, and unlike a hotseat we cant really crank up the difficulty for battles without unbalancing the whole game......

especially in a game like this, I can see people becoming very competitive and being extremely pissed when they see their Grand Army destroyed by a bunch of levy spear men being controlled by a player....

[/Bean\]

@Azathoth: Yes, some are not Germanic. I just wanted to widen the arena as much as possible, so that there is a chance of some space between players. But if you think it should be those major tribes and that that will not affect gameplay then so be it.

@CDF: I see what you mean; that we can't fight traditionally (tabletop, multiplayer etc) and get the same results on the battle map. I guess theres no real way around that. Shame.

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

I think we may have to at least increase the battle difficulty to hard if we want to go down that road. It will be a pain and probably ruin some game play, but when it comes to Player VS. Player we wont have hugely uneven battles that will just succeeded at pissing everyone off

[The Celtic Viking]

@TVS: I wouldn't worry, I've misunderstood you. Thanks for clearing that all up. If i understood correctly....we agree. Yes?

Well, I don't agree with everything you've proposed, but out of what we've talked about this far, yes, we agree.

also Bean, what provinces should we start out with, and do we want the "bonus's" you were talking about earlier? also if we are going do 1.2 how are we going to handle RBG's?

I would prefer no such bonuses. As for 1.1 vs 1.2, I'm not sure. I need to test 1.2 later to see if it's good for me, but my current (and safe) answer is that 1.1 works best for me.

And about 1.2 - we'll all need to get that light spear/spear fix, or whatever it's called, if we use it.

Which do you mean, and what does it do? There are a few changes I can see, but none that hasn't got drawbacks themselves.

And perhaps Navarro as GM could script some surprise forces around cities to protect them every now and again to spice things up a bit, or pay some ambushes along the way the raid is travelling.

I don't like this idea at all. Soldiers springing up from nowhere is not exactly realistic, and I think it would detract from the fun more than anything else. I mean, lets say an opposing tribe leave an area ill-defended and you deside to seize the opportunity and raid it, but then the GM desides to skydrop soldiers from hell to ambush and defeat your forces... how fun would that be? Or, if you're attacking a well defended area and he skydrops soldiers from the Underworld who weakens your forces so much that you have no hope of winning that offensive...

No, this I could do without.

I'm gonna hop onto EB in a mo, and give people a choice on territories, factions and the like. We need to see if we can find someone with good knowledge of the system to help us move some of the eastern factions and make them German. I think that would help on the economic and diplomatic side of things in-game. If we can get one version of EB working like this, we can just copy the files that are changed and give them to everyone who wants to join the game.

Wait, wait, what? Different... factions? Did I miss something?

How would that even work?

* Swebolandam (Swebotraustastamnoz [Town])
* Habokulandam (Gawjam-Habukoz [Town])
* Heruskolandam (Gawjam-Heruskoz [Town])
* Mrog Arctagone (Arctaunon [Town])
* Vindelicos (Videlicoppidos [Large Town])
* Mrogbonna (Eburonum [Large Town])
* Silengolandam (Gawjam-Silengoz [Town])
* Lugouw (Carrodunum [Town])
* Venedu Tauta (Ascaucalis [Town])
* Sembu Gentys (Gintaras-Ostan [Town])
* Rugolandam (Gawjam-Rugoz [Town])
* Kimbrolandam (Gawjam-Kimbroz [Town])
* Skandza (Gawjam-Skandzawarjoz [Town])
* Auwjogotanoz [Town])

I would immediately say no non-Germanic settlements to start with. We're still playing Germanic tribes, right?

I don't have much experience switching between factions during a game, so I am just going to keep quite.

I have very little experience... I tried it once with EB when the mod was made (with the mod-maker, I might add). Problems arose quickly and the whole thing ended after just two turns.

So based on that experience, I'm not overly confident about that idea. Of course, it doesn't mean it will go the same way this time; I'm just sayin'.

I think we may have to at least increase the battle difficulty to hard if we want to go down that road. It will be a pain and probably ruin some game play, but when it comes to Player VS. Player we wont have hugely uneven battles that will just succeeded at pissing everyone off

No no no, that will make the battles against the AI factions all screwed up as well. It's better to just have an MP battle or tabletop than increasing the difficulty level like that.

My opinion is that we should keep things simple and just play as the Sweboz. Putting new factions there would mean that

a) We would have to rename that faction, and fix its diplomacy settings right, as well as change their culture etc.
b) We would have to fix their AOR so that they can get the right units in the right places
c) We would have to fix so they could build all the right buildings
d) We would have to make them get the right reforms
e) We would have to make sure they could get the right governmental levels in at least the area they could conceivably expand to
etc, etc.

It's just so much we would have to do, and I think it's a little overambitious for a PBM.

[Azathoth]

Why is everyone finding it difficult to spell my name?

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=114926

That's the thread. They didn't make a fix, but it appears the EB team made some sort of mistake with spear unit stats in 1.2 that is outlined there, and it could really change gameplay relative to 1.1.

[/Bean\]

@TCV: If no bonus', how do we decide who gets the initial spy and diplomat, without upsetting the other tribes who get nothing.

Soldiers spring up from nowhere is not realistic, I grant that. I was trying to make up for the fact that the AI is pathetic, the Eletheroi rarely train new troops, and only do so in a few provinces.

lets say an opposing tribe leave an area ill-defended and you deside to seize the opportunity and raid it, but then the GM desides to skydrop soldiers from hell to ambush and defeat your forces

Surely that's what an ambush would be; where they seem to leave the area ill defended and you attack only to find there is an ambush...

And I think we agreed that different factions wouldn't work. It was only an idea, after all. It would have made the military, diplomatic and economic side of the game easier, but it, like you said, is too hard to set up atm.

As I already said, I included some non-Germanic settlements in order to produce some space between players' tribes. That would make it more interesting, and give players some space to breathe at the beginning.

My ideas are not meant to be set in stone. What I wanted was to create a new type of PBM that would make it stand out from the others. Otherwise its gonna be 'just another PBM', and whats going to stop it failing like BtSH and TVS did?

[The Celtic Viking]

If no bonus', how do we decide who gets the initial spy and diplomat, without upsetting the other tribes who get nothing.

Who says they must get nothing? We could raise new diplomats and spies so that each tribe we have gets one at no one's expense before we start. It's not really that hard to do.

Surely that's what an ambush would be; where they seem to leave the area ill defended and you attack only to find there is an ambush...

Sure, but that's not what would be happening. It wouldn't "seem" like they left the area ill defended - that's what they had done. We're not talking about the invaders simply not noticing them, we're talking about 'them' literally not existing two seconds before the ambush, and just materializing out of nothing. I don't want to start debating physics with you, but in reality that's not possible.

As I already said, I included some non-Germanic settlements in order to produce some space between players' tribes. That would make it more interesting, and give players some space to breathe at the beginning.

I am aware why you did this, but I still must protest. We're supposed to be Germanic tribes, so it would be kind of wrong to start in a non-Germanic settlement.

Why is everyone finding it difficult to spell my name?

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=114926

That's the thread. They didn't make a fix, but it appears the EB team made some sort of mistake with spear unit stats in 1.2 that is outlined there, and it could really change gameplay relative to 1.1.

Sorry, that 'r' was unintentional.

But anyway, I've been aware of this myself for some time now, and it's not limited to 1.2 - it's the same in 1.1.

However, whatever fix you try, you're left with some drawbacks. If you just remove the -4 attack bonus, then the spearmen will be weaker than they're supposed to be, since they get a -4 defence against infantry that they shouldn't have. If you then try to balance that by giving the light_spear carriers +4 defence, then you'll have the ones with a light_spear and another melee weapon (like the Arjos) getting that bonus when they're not using their spear as well, making them stronger than they should be.

Remove the light_spear and the pushing effect it gives (as well as the +8 defence vs cavalry) is lost.

So it's a choice between different evils, AFAIK, and the +4 attack may make them kill easier, the -4 defence also lets them die easier. I don't know if it evens out in the end that way, but it's the easiest way to do it. They'll do a lot better against cavalry, but then again, cavalry should probably stay away from the pointy sticks in the first place.

One could perhaps do so that the soldiers with two melee weapons retains the +4 attack bonus, while the rest get their +4 attack switched for +4 defensive skill.

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

I think that perhaps it would be best if we decided by a vote if we want to try and mod the Germanic tribes to be more than one faction. That is a huge issue we need to get out of the way.

(Bean, it will still be different enough, and I still believe that we can get some players. The very fact we are playing as barbarians will draw in a different crowd. )

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

Sooooo...... Are we going to try and get this together people?

[/Bean\]

Dont we kinda have to wait for Navarro?

[mini]

i'm out

Me no like sweboz. I'm concentrating on the KOTF thingy

[/Bean\]

Can we do something now?

Ha, I bet I excited everyone by posting, making them think something was happening because there was a new post...yeah... ... ... I'm so lonely....

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

I know what you mean. I would love to get this started and such, but I am leaving to go camping on Sunday for a week.

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

When I am back from camping I will get around to actually writing rules and such for this game. I for one am not going to let it die. Navarro do you want me to help out GMing? Here is what I have for the dueling mechanics by the way. Mostly copy/pasted from The KotF one. I think it should be something you should all go over, I spent very little time on it (the trait system in EB is pretty fickle, and I think that most players will not see many trait bonuses beyond being Vigorous/smart) OHHH GOD DAMNIT!!!! The word document that I did for the dueling mechanic looks lost....... I will have to do it over again after I get back...... If anyone has any ideas while I am gone please go ahead. keep this Idea alive.

[/Bean\]

I don't think Navarro's letting it die...I just don't think he's been on for a while.

And how the hell did you get to be an assistant mod...sir?

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

I help over at WotB, although I have not had to do much so far . I feel kind of like I cheated.....

[/Bean\]

Yeah, you must feel soooooo bad.

[TinCow]

So, is this game dead?

[/Bean\]

Agh, don't close the forum, TC! We'll have nowhere to group together to organise a new one! Please!!

[TinCow]

Is there a new one being planned?

[/Bean\]

Its even on this page. I'll do it for you since you're too laz....anyway..

Yeah, new Sweboz one being planned, where its more interactive, and we have something like four tribes, so it kinda starts in a civil war, and we see if one of the tribes is strong enough to unite them all. That's putting it briefly anyway.

Trouble is, I seem to be the only one around...

[johnhughthom]

WoTB is about to finish as well, perhaps getting the two groups together for one super EB PBM would be more sensible than starting two at the same time.

[/Bean\]

Good plan...but can we do our idea?

[navarro951]

WoTB is about to finish as well, perhaps getting the two groups together for one super EB PBM would be more sensible than starting two at the same time.

argh finally got my new rig and can actually play a game NOT from the 90s lol. anyway i agree we should get the two groups back together.

[/Bean\]

Rejoice! The Master is here!

Here come the drums here come the drums...

Baby, baby, baby!

You are my voodoo child, my voodoo child.

Don't say maybe, maybe...

[TinCow]

Please do pursue this proactively. This game hasn't moved in 3 months, despite multiple reports that it would eventually restart. These subforums are provided for organizational purposes only, they are not private chatrooms. Without progress being made on restarting this game or starting a new one, there is no need for the subforum.

[/Bean\]

We have been organising...its all up there if you want proof.

[navarro951]

Ya i will have to begin a new recruiting campaign up it looks like. Since i cant entice people with Roma, perhaps sweboz will get more attention.

[/Bean\]

We were waiting for you to reappear so that we could sort out how the game was going to run. But now CDF's buggered off on some camping trip ()...I guess that basically means he's walked out on us and given up any responsibility.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

jokes

But seriously, we need to actually start discussing and writing down all the aspects of how the games going to run and how it's going to be different. Shall we start a new thread and move all the stuff we've done in this one over to there? It would be far easier to see where we are then, and what else we still need to do.

[navarro951]

mmm well i could just start deleting topics and making new ones here.