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Thread: Science Under Obama: Just Different Politics

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Science Under Obama: Just Different Politics

    And maybe worse for the lot of us:
    Earlier this month, President Barack Obama nominated Mothers Against Drunk Driving CEO Chuck Hurley to head up the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA).

    Hurley's pending appointment is bad news for social drinkers, motorists, and anyone interested in freedom of movement and less hassle on the roadways. Hurley is an anti-alcohol zealot, and a longtime proponent of just about any highway regulation that's sold under the guise of public safety.
    The whole article:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Putting MADD in Charge of America's Highways
    President Obama's troubling nominee to head the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration

    Radley Balko
    | April 24, 2009

    Earlier this month, President Barack Obama nominated Mothers Against Drunk Driving CEO Chuck Hurley to head up the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA).

    Hurley's pending appointment is bad news for social drinkers, motorists, and anyone interested in freedom of movement and less hassle on the roadways. Hurley is an anti-alcohol zealot, and a longtime proponent of just about any highway regulation that's sold under the guise of public safety. He's a supporter of primary seat belt laws, which allow police to pull motorists over solely for seat belt infractions. In addition to being a questionable use of law enforcement resources (people who don’t wear seat belts aren’t a threat to anyone other than themselves), primary seat belt laws have been criticized for giving police officers the pretext to engage in racial profiling, or to commit asset forfeiture abuse. Hurley has also supported the proliferation of red light cameras, despite studies showing that they're little more than revenue generators for local government, and may actually cause more accidents than they prevent.

    Longtime automotive writer Eric Peters wrote recently in the Detroit Free Press that motorists have much to fear from a Hurley-led NHTSA, including a possible return to federally-mandated speed limits, a national blood alcohol count as low as .04, federally-mandated speed and red light cameras, and even the installation of GPS responders on vehicles for the possible implementation of future "pay as you go" driving taxes (Britain already keeps tabs on the whereabouts of every driver in the country).

    But Hurley's record is most troubling when it comes to overly aggressive measures allegedly aimed at preventing drunken driving. MADD's top priority during Hurley's stint as CEO was to get state legislatures to pass laws mandating ignition interlock devices in the cars of all first-time DWI offenders. The device requires you to blow into a tube before starting your car, then blow again at set intervals as you’re driving (which, come to think of it, doesn't really seem all that safe). Under Hurley’s watch, MADD gave a “qualified endorsement” for bills in the New York and New Mexico legislatures that would have required the devices in all cars sold in those states. Fortunately, neither bill became law.

    Hurley and MADD were also at the heart of the effort to force the states to adopt the .08 minimum blood alcohol standard back in the late 1990s, under penalty of losing federal highway funds for noncompliance. Studies show that both significant impairment and most DWI fatalities occur at much higher blood-alcohol concentrations.

    Hurley has also aggressively pushed for the use of constitutionally-dubious roadblock sobriety checkpoints to enforce the new standard, even though there's convincing evidence these invasive tactics have actually made the roads more dangerous. DWI deaths began inching upward again as the roadblocks were implemented in the early 2000s. It isn't difficult to see why. Roadblocks are designed to catch motorists who aren't driving erratically enough to be caught with conventional law enforcement methods. The officers who staff them would otherwise be out on the streets, looking for actual drunks who pose an actual threat to highway safety.

    With Hurley in charge, MADD’s goals will become NHTSA’s goals. That's troubling because at heart, MADD is an activist organization. The groups once-admirable goal of raising public awareness about drunk driving has over the last several years morphed into a zealous, evangelical teetotaling campaign. When a coalition of college presidents recently asked for nothing more than a new debate over the federal drinking age last year, for example, MADD called on parents to boycott the presidents' schools. MADD has supported prison sentences for parents who allow alcohol consumption at chaperoned parties for underage teens, and fought efforts to allow underage veterans to have a beer on base after returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. Even MADD's founder, Candace Lightner, has renounced the group, calling them "neo-prohibitionists."

    MADD is no longer merely a group of concerned mothers raising awareness. They've become very powerful, pushing for laws based on questionable data and that involve real trade-offs between safety, privacy, and individual freedom. That's what makes the organization's close relationship with the government so troubling. Hurley isn't the first MADD exec to make the jump to NHTSA—or the other way around. MADD regularly receives funding from the federal government. Members of MADD have even been known to help man and run sobriety checkpoints. MADD also runs many of the mandatory classes DWI convicts are forced to attend (and pay for).

    Hurley would take NHTSA in a much more activist direction. States could expect to see more federal mandates about how they manage their roads, and motorists could expect expensive new mandatory safety add-ons to new vehicles; more reasons for to get pulled over; and lots more red light and speed cameras. NHTSA needs a director who will balance safety with freedom, who will look at data dispassionately, and who will consider unintended consequences before ushering in sweeping new policies.

    Chuck Hurley isn't that person.


    Won't it be lovely to have such a neo-prohibitionist zealot in the federal government, pushing for all sorts of new limits on our freedom? Oh, and MADD sucks too.

    CR
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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Science Under Obama: Just Different Politics

    Wait, how does the NHTSA relate to science? Your headline confuses me ...

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    Spirit King Senior Member seireikhaan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Science Under Obama: Just Different Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    Wait, how does the NHTSA relate to science? Your headline confuses me ...
    Indeed, I was expecting something on global warming or some such.
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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Science Under Obama: Just Different Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    Wait, how does the NHTSA relate to science? Your headline confuses me ...
    Chuck Hurley is going to be pushing for all sorts of new regulations in his new capacity, based on dubious and biased science (MADD manages to find data indicating every state, no matter their drunk driving trends, should pass interlock ignition laws, for example.)

    CR
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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Science Under Obama: Just Different Politics

    Raging against drink driving - the imposition of the centuary...

    I am all for having low levels of alcohol for driving, and for severe penalties for those that do. Lisence lost on first offence, car impounded and sold. Have to re-sit driving test after a decent ban.

    There really is no excuse, barring fleeing a natural disaster.

    I don't care how much you drink. Just get a Taxi, or get lashed at home.
    Take Heroin whilst you're at it. Want a spliff? Fine with me.

    Just Don't Do It Before Driving!

    I don't care if you kill yourself, I do care if you kill others.

    Speed cameras are not evil. They enforce the law. I'd be happy to have speed limits of 100mph in the outside lane of motorways. Idiots driving at 40mph in residental areas should be severely punished.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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    Spirit King Senior Member seireikhaan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Science Under Obama: Just Different Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by article
    Hurley isn't the first MADD exec to make the jump to NHTSA
    It is better to conquer yourself than to win a thousand battles. Then, the victory is yours. It cannot be taken from you, not by angels or by demons, heaven or hell.

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    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: Science Under Obama: Just Different Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    Wait, how does the NHTSA relate to science? Your headline confuses me ...
    Somewere around when people flying around in a crash won't smash into the front seat or continuing through the next car's windshield after flying through your own.

    With that said, it's generally not good putting activists in charge of goverment bodies, but this article isn't the best one to show it (there's more than one questionable statement in there).
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

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    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Re: Science Under Obama: Just Different Politics

    So, let me get this right - Obama is pursuing bad science, by wanting to reduce drink driving, one of the most utterly disgusting and selfish acts any person behind a wheel can ever take.

    CR, you have lost it mate.
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    Default Re: Science Under Obama: Just Different Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by JAG View Post
    So, let me get this right - Obama is pursuing bad science, by wanting to reduce drink driving, one of the most utterly disgusting and selfish acts any person behind a wheel can ever take.

    CR, you have lost it mate.
    Bush authorized torture, wanting to get information about terrorist attacks, one of the most utterly disgusting and selfish acts any person can ever take.


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    It's quite legitimate to question someones methods of reducing an evil. The piece posted seems something of a smear piece. I don't know much about this dude.

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    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Science Under Obama: Just Different Politics

    Wow... lefties arguing against the conservative because he is complaining about a prohibitionist getting into a government position.

    The world is turning upside down!
    At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.

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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Science Under Obama: Just Different Politics

    Just FYI, here's an actual article about Obama and science policy.

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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Science Under Obama: Just Different Politics

    I think for a long time, drunk-driving laws were very useful. The USA doesn't have the relationship with alcohol that most European countries do, but there is enough consumption to justify concern. Considered in the context of our car-culture, however, it became a formula for disaster. We have essentially no public transportion anyplace outside of 12 major metro areas, in which only about 30% of our population lives.

    For the other 70%, there simply is no alternative. People say "take a taxi". Really? After two beers? When the taxi will cost a rough average of $60US (~45Euro or ~35BP). What, you say? After two beers? Don't be such an alarmist, nobody is talking about that...

    Aaah, but most states, in the process of reining in DWI offenses, got addicted to all those fines and penalties coming into their coffers. As the DWI offense rates have fallen, state legislators seeking to close budget shortfalls, have continued to lower the limit. In every state in the US, the legal limit is .08 BAC per se. For the average individual, this means 2 drinks, and you can be convicted of DUI. In many states, you can be convicted of a lesser charge which will still have your license, albeit for a shorter time, for ANY alcohol in your system. That's right folks, better forgo the cough medicine if you're planning on driving home from work tonight.

    If you actuall have those two beers, you'll have your license pulled for 6 months, pay thousands of dollars in fines and penalties, suffer a conviction, and in some states, lose your automobile. If you can get auto insurance at all, which is mandatory for all drivers in the US, you'll easily see your rates explode to 400% to 500% of what they were.

    My (granted, conspriatorial) theory on why Democrats, who tend to posture themselves as "for the good-times guys", are behind such tough drunk driving laws? These laws lead to urbanization. Democrats may be in favor of good-times, but they're even more in favor of ending suburbs and having everyone move back into the cities. Impossible drunk driving laws are one lever to help move that boulder up the hill...
    Last edited by Don Corleone; 04-28-2009 at 21:21.
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    Default Re: Science Under Obama: Just Different Politics

    The USA doesn't have the relationship with alcohol that most European countries do
    Thats not surprising when you consider many of the brands of pisswater that passes for beer over there .

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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Science Under Obama: Just Different Politics

    Hey, we make good beer. We just don't tell you about it. Sam Adams, Pete's Wicked, Anchor Steam, Sierra Nevada, Shocktop.... all great beers you've never heard of we enjoy regularly.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
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    Default Re: Science Under Obama: Just Different Politics

    all great beers you've never heard of

    Consider who you are addressing Don

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    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Science Under Obama: Just Different Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman View Post
    Thats not surprising when you consider many of the brands of pisswater that passes for beer over there .
    *sigh*... yeah



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    Kanto Kanrei Member Marshal Murat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Science Under Obama: Just Different Politics

    Drunk Driving is bad, there's no doubt about it. So it's practically impossible for someone to say "We shouldn't do such & such" because then they're "lax" on drunk driving, encouraging the deaths of thousands of teenagers, etc. etc. etc.

    Currently, the drinking laws in the U.S. aren't effectively curbing drunk-driving. If anything, having the age set at 21 seems to not take into account the fact that TEENAGERS DRINK. They drink in High School, they drink in College. It's simply part of the culture (at least around here) that in college one plays beer-pong and chugs down whatever seems the most alcoholic.
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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Science Under Obama: Just Different Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by JAG View Post
    So, let me get this right - Obama is pursuing bad science, by wanting to reduce drink driving, one of the most utterly disgusting and selfish acts any person behind a wheel can ever take.

    CR, you have lost it mate.
    MADD stopped trying to reduce drunk driving long ago, and have for a while now been trying to get people thrown in jail for drinking one drink before driving. They've been pushing for all sorts of state intrusion, that has not helped lower the drunk driving rate.

    And the thing is, the way this guy is going to 'reduce drunk driving' is not based on science, as highlighted in the article I posted.

    Here's another editorial, by the Washington Times.

    The nation's traffic-safety czar has broad powers to control the roads and road-going habits of Americans. Mr. Hurley has a history of pushing laws that harass millions of law-abiding citizens to ensnare a few lawbreakers. He supports returning the 55 mph speed limit to our highways as well as roadblocks and random pullovers to make sure drivers aren't doing anything wrong. This methodology is based on a presumption of guilt - not innocence - of the average driver who is doing nothing wrong.

    Mr. Hurley has promoted a mania of overregulation at MADD. Absent from his advocacies is the principle that a punishment should fit the crime, or that a crime even needs to be committed to incur a penalty. Under this influence, MADD has been lobbying to lower the allowable blood-alcohol content (BAC) for drivers to .04 - which means one glass of Pinot can land anyone behind bars. We do not condone drinking and driving, but the constant lowering of BAC limits has separated what is punishable from what is actually dangerous.
    MADD are the type of idiots who get outraged over Marines under 21 being able to drink before or after they go on a tour of duty. They've pushed for, and gotten, laws allowing cops to take blood samples from suspected drunk drivers, for roadblocks on public roads so cops can stop everyone.

    A large part of the NHTSA 'Alcohol Related Fatalities' occur when the driver isn't intoxicated at all.

    MADD was also instrumental in pushing the 21 year old standard for booze. It's stupid, pigheaded, ignorant of the facts, hasn't helped, has lead to more dangerous drinking, etc. That's the kind of scientific 'reasoning' this MADD CEO will bring to the federal government.

    MADD wants to lower the already low BAC level of .08 to .04, based on 'science'.

    Or look at this 60 minutes video, where the parents of a college teen dead from alcohol poisoning believe their son might be alive if the drinking age was 18 and the fraternity he was drinking at didn't have to worry about admitting they broke the law when they called the hospital.

    CR
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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Science Under Obama: Just Different Politics

    Strange, last I'd heard there was a movement afoot to lower the drinking age to 18.

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Science Under Obama: Just Different Politics

    Yea, and guess who rabidly opposes that?

    Really, I don't see how those sane College Presidents repudiate my point at all.

    CR
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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Science Under Obama: Just Different Politics

    Whoa, easy there, CR, I wasn't trying to "repudiate" anything, just referencing something I'd read that pertains to the topic. Personally, I think the drinking age should be done away with entirely. Let us parents sort it out, thank you very much.

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    Default Re: Science Under Obama: Just Different Politics

    Don't worry, I'm quite relaxed. I guess I've just read so much about the College initiative I thought it was common knowledge or something.

    Funny how so often "It's for the children!" is used to take our freedoms.

    CR
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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Science Under Obama: Just Different Politics

    When a politician mentions "children," "family" or "marriage," it's best to check to make sure your wallet is still in your pocket.

    P.S.: Fortunately I live in a state where it's legit to let your children have a drink if you are with them. This seems to common-sensical that I'm sure it will be struck from the books shortly. (And I still don't entirely understand how this is a "science" thread ....)
    Last edited by Lemur; 04-29-2009 at 04:49.

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    Default Re: Science Under Obama: Just Different Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    (And I still don't entirely understand how this is a "science" thread ....)
    Whoa, easy there lemur! No need to get worked up.


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    promoting an a person who takes emotional arguments over scientific ones...you see the similarity to opposing, say, stem cell research on moral grounds?

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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Science Under Obama: Just Different Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    P.S.: Fortunately I live in a state where it's legit to let your children have a drink if you are with them. This seems to common-sensical that I'm sure it will be struck from the books shortly.
    Wait, that sounds too sensible to be true.... are you sure about this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro
    promoting an a person who takes emotional arguments over scientific ones...you see the similarity to opposing, say, stem cell research on moral grounds?
    Could be wrong here, but I think that was what CR was driving at. Democrats accused Republicans of putting politics ahead of science, now he's saying that Democrats are doing the same thing.
    Last edited by Xiahou; 04-29-2009 at 06:32.
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    Default Re: Science Under Obama: Just Different Politics

    Yup, Sasaki's got it. I'll try to be clearer in the future.

    CR
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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re : Science Under Obama: Just Different Politics

    Mothers Against Drunk Driving CEO Chuck Hurley to head up the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA)
    Brilliant! Let MADD impose its ideas on the NHTSA.

    Alcohol and driving are killers. Both have a level of abuse so staggeringly high it beggars belief. Both are way up on my list of biggest social problems. As for the combination of the two...I don't even know what to say.

    As for mad science behind MADD, I don't know. Haven't read up about the specifics. Too much science in the US is political, all US science will be accused of being political because of polarization. Science in America is like a mafia forum game - a big swampy mess where discovering truths is reduced to finding out who says what and what for.
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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Science Under Obama: Just Different Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    Wait, that sounds too sensible to be true.... are you sure about this?
    Yup, it's legal for me to give my little lemurlings shots. I can even order them brewskis at the local pub. Looks like various politicians have been trying to strip it from the books ... for the children! Don't you want to protect the children?

    Wis. Lawmaker Wants to Stop Minors from Drinking with Parents

    Rep. John Ainsworth (R-Shawano) wants to change a Wisconsin law that allows children to consume alcoholic drinks at bars as long as their parents are present, the Associated Press reported Aug. 20.

    Ainsworth's bill would only allow individuals age 18 and older to drink in bars if accompanied by a parent or guardian.

    The legal drinking age in Wisconsin is 21, but the current law permits parents to take their children to a bar and serve them alcohol, regardless of their age.
    Last edited by Lemur; 04-29-2009 at 17:21.

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Science Under Obama: Just Different Politics

    What surprises me the most is that "Chuck Hurley" is apparently a mother.


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    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Re: Science Under Obama: Just Different Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    Yup, it's legal for me to give my little lemurlings shots. I can even order them brewskis at the local pub. Looks like various politicians have been trying to strip it from the books ... for the children! Don't you want to protect the children?

    Wis. Lawmaker Wants to Stop Minors from Drinking with Parents

    Rep. John Ainsworth (R-Shawano) wants to change a Wisconsin law that allows children to consume alcoholic drinks at bars as long as their parents are present, the Associated Press reported Aug. 20.

    Ainsworth's bill would only allow individuals age 18 and older to drink in bars if accompanied by a parent or guardian.

    The legal drinking age in Wisconsin is 21, but the current law permits parents to take their children to a bar and serve them alcohol, regardless of their age.
    My initial and instinctive reaction to the freedom cited is that it is very sensible, and mirrors the European model where (in most cases) parental responsibility for accustoming children to alcohol is a good thing.

    Sadly, next to the article you linked to there is a sidebar that leads to this:

    Wisconsin is the state most affected by alcohol.

    Wisconsin has some of the lowest alcohol prices in the U.S. (the beer tax hasn't been raised since 1969), and 17,500 bars, taverns and stores licensed to sell alcohol. The state also has the highest rates of binge drinking and alcoholism in the country. The alcohol industry employs more than 200,000 people in the state, but 320 Wisconsin residents died in drunk-driving crashes last year.

    Which rather puts a hole beneath the waterline, I fear.
    "If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."
    Albert Camus "Noces"

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